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    #32
    KWAG2019
    Closed Accounts Posts: 834 ✭✭✭KWAG2019


    MJohnston wrote: »
    You ended your initial post with "convince me" but you haven't actually done any work to convince anyone of your own stance. Also you don't seem to want to be convinced either.

    To reply in kind, your post seems to have no interest in thinking about the matter and has advanced no argument other than an ad hominem. For posts such as yours, the ignore button.


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    #33
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    KWAG2019 wrote: »
    How is it bad and how is it good are really the same question.

    Some answers:
    By constantly seeking derogations, special status and looking to the UK as the first port of call Ireland is undermining its sense of self and its own self respect. I believe it would be good for us to begin to look to Europe much more independently of the UK and to look globally much more. The UK centric view is a previous version of Ireland. It is past time to think our independence and live it.

    Whether visas will be needed by Brits to travel within EU has yet to be determined. In practice you already need a passport to fly. During the Northern Violence 1969-1998 I remember the separate queues for Irish people entering Britain and leaving and the form the airlines distributed before disembarkation. Travel documents are nothing new.

    Work within a 3rd country should be open to EU citizens as a whole or not at all. We are showing no solidarity with the EU having demanded it in the backstop and having got it.

    The CTA isn't UK-centric. It's a reciprocal arrangement between two states.

    The separate lines in UK airports during the troubles were no different to the current arrangements - separate disembarkation routes for CTA passengers - which is why they're only filled with Irish and UK passengers from those flights.


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    #34
    KWAG2019
    Closed Accounts Posts: 834 ✭✭✭KWAG2019


    Salary Negotiator wrote: »
    Being closely alligned to the UK while also being members of the EU can only be a good thing for Ireland, and removing the CTA would remove rights that we have had for generations.

    Seems retrograde at best, and stupid or spiteful at worst.

    The problems with these "rights" is outlined in some of my other replies. Times change and previous generations had many experiences of British "rights" that no one wants to revisit. Times have changed decisively with Brexit. The current close alignment with the UK is due to EU membership for 40 years. Divergence is coming very soon and it will prove impossible to maintain a foot in both camps. Stupidity would be seeking to live in the past with the head in the sand. Spite would be trying to stop Ireland developing independently from the UK after Brexit and to maintain a craven psychological dependency. Its an attitude that affects particular elements of IBEC.


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    #35
    KWAG2019
    Closed Accounts Posts: 834 ✭✭✭KWAG2019


    alastair wrote: »
    The CTA isn't UK-centric. It's a reciprocal arrangement between two states.

    The separate lines in UK airports during the troubles were no different to the current arrangements - separate disembarkation routes for CTA passengers - which is why they're only filled with Irish and UK passengers from those flights.

    Ireland doesn't have a CTA with any other country. It is UK centric from that perspective. Of course there are two states in it.

    The point about those lines is that bureaucracy was part of travel in the past.


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    #36
    KWAG2019
    Closed Accounts Posts: 834 ✭✭✭KWAG2019


    I'll look back in on this thread in the next day or two.


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    #37
    fly_agaric
    Registered Users Posts: 4,935 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    KWAG2019 wrote: »
    Convince me.

    Now is not the time IMO.
    Wait & watch for what the UK do over next few years of this government.
    If they continue along the line they are on (going for maximum separation with the EU which they know well will cause pain for us & our citizens in NI + don't care) reciprocal/legacy stuff like the CTA, our lax voting rules and the silly Oirish granny citizenship doling out flag-of-convenience passports should all be reviewed in the light of that.


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    #38
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    KWAG2019 wrote: »
    Ireland doesn't have a CTA with any other country. It is UK centric from that perspective. Of course there are two states in it.
    So it's just as Irish-centric. Or your point is invalid.
    KWAG2019 wrote: »
    The point about those lines is that bureaucracy was part of travel in the past.
    That was a removal of bureaucracy. The alternate airport route involved immigration checks.


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    #39
    splinter65
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    KWAG2019 wrote: »
    How is it bad and how is it good are really the same question.

    Some answers:
    By constantly seeking derogations, special status and looking to the UK as the first port of call Ireland is undermining its sense of self and its own self respect. I believe it would be good for us to begin to look to Europe much more independently of the UK and to look globally much more. The UK centric view is a previous version of Ireland. It is past time to think our independence and live it.

    Whether visas will be needed by Brits to travel within EU has yet to be determined. In practice you already need a passport to fly. During the Northern Violence 1969-1998 I remember the separate queues for Irish people entering Britain and leaving and the form the airlines distributed before disembarkation. Travel documents are nothing new.

    Work within a 3rd country should be open to EU citizens as a whole or not at all. We are showing no solidarity with the EU having demanded it in the backstop and having got it.

    Ordinary Irish people can go to work in the uk and they don’t need to learn another language. There are huge amounts of Irish people living in the uk making it a home from home.
    Not everyone leaving Ireland is looking for a complete change. Hardly any are.
    You may remember separate queues 50 years ago but you can buy an Aer Lingus air ticket today and fly to the Uk with no need for a passport.
    1000s of small businesses in this country with 1000s of employees are relying on the massive UK tourist industry and you appear to be saying that they can just suck it up.
    I don’t think you’ve thought very much about the ordinary people here.
    But there’s a lot of that about.


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    #40
    KWAG2019
    Closed Accounts Posts: 834 ✭✭✭KWAG2019


    alastair wrote: »
    So it's just as Irish-centric. Or your point is invalid.


    That was a removal of bureaucracy. The alternate airport route involved immigration checks.

    The CTA is UK centric for Ireland. It is Ireland centric for the UK. It is simple.

    The form filling and police interviews during the Northern Violence were bureaucratic. It has been part of Uk travel from Ireland in the past.


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    #41
    Salary Negotiator
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,148 ✭✭✭Salary Negotiator


    KWAG2019 wrote: »
    The problems with these "rights" is outlined in some of my other replies. Times change and previous generations had many experiences of British "rights" that no one wants to revisit. Times have changed decisively with Brexit. The current close alignment with the UK is due to EU membership for 40 years. Divergence is coming very soon and it will prove impossible to maintain a foot in both camps. Stupidity would be seeking to live in the past with the head in the sand. Spite would be trying to stop Ireland developing independently from the UK after Brexit and to maintain a craven psychological dependency. Its an attitude that affects particular elements of IBEC.

    Why did you put rights in quotation marks?

    Time will really only have changed if we get rid of the CTA, something that only you seem to be advocating for. Have any EU members come out in favour of removing it or in opposition to it continuing?


    If I understand what you are saying correctly - you want us to withdraw from the CTA so that we benefit more from EU membership and not because the CTA has a negative impact on us. I disagree with both, but at least with the later we could point to some examples, for the former it would essentially be a leap into the unknown similar to Brexit ironically.


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    #42
    KWAG2019
    Closed Accounts Posts: 834 ✭✭✭KWAG2019


    splinter65 wrote: »
    Ordinary Irish people can go to work in the uk and they don’t need to learn another language. There are huge amounts of Irish people living in the uk making it a home from home.
    Not everyone leaving Ireland is looking for a complete change. Hardly any are.
    You may remember separate queues 50 years ago but you can buy an Aer Lingus air ticket today and fly to the Uk with no need for a passport.
    1000s of small businesses in this country with 1000s of employees are relying on the massive UK tourist industry and you appear to be saying that they can just suck it up.
    I don’t think you’ve thought very much about the ordinary people here.
    But there’s a lot of that about.

    I am aware of all that you say there. There is a bigger point when you claim that economic dependency of one sector on a foreign state must limit the development of the country. Note I use development to include more than economy. A state is more than an economy as a society is too.


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    #43
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    KWAG2019 wrote: »
    The CTA is UK centric for Ireland. It is Ireland centric for the UK. It is simple.
    You seem determined to present it as 'maintaining a craven psychological dependency', where no such dependancy exists in the operation of the CTA - it's a mutually beneficial arrangement.
    KWAG2019 wrote: »
    The form filling and police interviews during the Northern Violence were bureaucratic. It has been part of Uk travel from Ireland in the past.
    Nothing to do with the seperate airport lines though - those were purely for the convenience of CTA passengers - Irish and UK alike. I spent many years using them - it's no different than it is today - where you still have to flag your boarding card to be waved through your arrival airport (where CTA routes are applied).


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    #44
    KWAG2019
    Closed Accounts Posts: 834 ✭✭✭KWAG2019


    Salary Negotiator wrote: »
    Why did you put rights in quotation marks?

    Time will really only have changed if we get rid of the CTA, something that only you seem to be advocating for. Have any EU members come out in favour of removing it or in opposition to it continuing?


    If I understand what you are saying correctly - you want us to withdraw from the CTA so that we benefit more from EU membership and not because the CTA has a negative impact on us. I disagree with both, but at least with the later we could point to some examples, for the former it would essentially be a leap into the unknown similar to Brexit ironically.

    "Rights" were put in q marks for reasons I gave in another post. In short, the CTA "rights" are an outworking of colonialism not equality.

    I am the first I've seen to advocate for it. Originality is the only antidote to groupthink. ;)

    I have outlined the negative impact of the CTA.


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    #45
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,935 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    KWAG2019 wrote: »
    I have outlined the negative impact of the CTA.

    You haven't. You've just posted a list of soundbites. Where is there a tangible negative impact on either Irish or British people as a direct result of the CTA?

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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    #46
    KWAG2019
    Closed Accounts Posts: 834 ✭✭✭KWAG2019


    alastair wrote: »
    You seem determined to present it as 'maintaining a craven psychological dependency', where no such dependancy exists in the operation of the CTA - it's a mutually beneficial arrangement.


    Nothing to do with the seperate airport lines though - those were purely for the convenience of CTA passengers - Irish and UK alike. I spent many years using them - it's no different than it is today - where you still have to flag your boarding card to be waved through your arrival airport (where CTA routes are applied).

    The dependency is intrinsic to it. It is not mutually beneficial at all as I have put in other posts.

    I spent many years using them too and they were part of the bureaucracy that existed then which was the point to those who said that that would be something new.


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    #47
    KWAG2019
    Closed Accounts Posts: 834 ✭✭✭KWAG2019


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    You haven't. You've just posted a list of soundbites. Where is there a tangible negative impact on either Irish or British people as a direct result of the CTA?

    What do you consider tangible?


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    #48
    KWAG2019
    Closed Accounts Posts: 834 ✭✭✭KWAG2019


    Done for today.


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    #49
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,935 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    KWAG2019 wrote: »
    What do you consider tangible?

    A measurable proxy that shows a lesser quality of life for Irish and/or British citizens as a direct result of the CTA. Incomes being adversely effected for example.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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    #50
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users Posts: 14,339 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    Draco wrote: »
    For purely selfish reasons, I would be happy to see the CTA dropped so we could join Schengen instead.

    We cannot join Schengen without putting border controls with NI. Otherwise it's free flow from the continent to NI to mainland UK.


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    #51
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    KWAG2019 wrote: »
    The dependency is intrinsic to it. It is not mutually beneficial at all as I have put in other posts.
    It's not. And you haven't made any persuasive case.
    KWAG2019 wrote: »
    I spent many years using them too and they were part of the bureaucracy that existed then which was the point to those who said that that would be something new.
    Nothing to do with the CTA. You're conflating anti terrorism policy and procedures with the CTA, on the back of no evidence whatsoever. Flight arrangements within the CTA are no different today than they were in the 80's.


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    #52
    fly_agaric
    Registered Users Posts: 4,935 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    KWAG2019 wrote: »
    "Rights" were put in q marks for reasons I gave in another post. In short, the CTA "rights" are an outworking of colonialism not equality.

    They are beneficial at the moment whatever the origin. Also very good for UK citizens of course + become more valuable to them once they leave the EU (and likely less valuable for us).

    However if the UK government decides to further harm Ireland by diverging massively from the EU, they might become more trouble than they are worth (if opening loopholes for a 3rd country into the EU/harming our relationship with rest of the EU which I think we've pretty much hitched our star to?). Schengen might be better option then (if it is workable for us - don't know*)?

    *edit: as per jimmycrackcorm above was thinking it might cause problems with NI.


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    #53
    BorneTobyWilde
    Registered Users Posts: 36,165 ✭✭✭✭BorneTobyWilde


    In all fairness if France got a chance to vote to leave they'd leave EU to, as would Belgium and Germany.
    The EU is now forced on people. They'd be terrified to let them vote on it.


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    #54
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,935 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    BorneTobyWilde wrote: »
    In all fairness if France got a chance to vote to leave they'd leave EU to, as would Belgium and Germany.
    The EU is now forced on people. They'd be terrified to let them vote on it.

    Nonsense. They had a clear choice between Macron and LePen and they chose the former.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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    #55
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,161 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    BorneTobyWilde wrote: »
    In all fairness if France got a chance to vote to leave they'd leave EU to, as would Belgium and Germany.
    The EU is now forced on people. They'd be terrified to let them vote on it.
    Not quite. Outside of usually hard right wing parties and though more have expressed wanting more of a say in the EU through votes and referenda support for the EU has been going up since Brexit.

    Most EU citizens don't want their countries to leave the Union but support a referendum on membership, according to a survey by Pew Research Center published Thursday.

    Support for a national referendum on EU membership was particularly high in Spain (65 percent), France (61 percent), and Greece and Italy (both 57 percent).

    Greece and Italy also recorded the highest level of support (35 percent) for an actual departure from the EU. France and Sweden followed, both on 22 percent.

    But the EU is more popular than it was a year ago. Most of those polled in nine of 10 EU member countries hold a favorable view of Brussels, with support being highest in Poland (74 percent), Germany (68 percent) and Hungary (67 percent). In 2016, support for the EU was at 72 percent in Poland, 50 percent in Germany, and 61 percent in Hungary.

    In Britain, a year after the 2016 referendum on exiting the EU, more than half of respondents (54 percent) now say they are positive about Europe, compared to 44 percent in the 2016 survey. Only Greeks view the EU more negatively now than they did a year ago, with one third currently holding positive views about the Union, compared to 27 percent in 2016.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #56
    fly_agaric
    Registered Users Posts: 4,935 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    BorneTobyWilde wrote: »
    In all fairness if France got a chance to vote to leave they'd leave EU to, as would Belgium and Germany.
    The EU is now forced on people. They'd be terrified to let them vote on it.

    Don't think so. After the Brexit shambles, even far right parties on the continent started cloaking their goals with softer talk of "reforming" the EU from the inside (even if they really would wish to destroy it). Somehow doubt they would be doing that if "leave the EU" was at all a popular position.


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    #57
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,785 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    fly_agaric wrote: »
    Don't think so. After the Brexit shambles, even far right parties on the continent started cloaking their goals with softer talk of "reforming" the EU from the inside (even if they really would wish to destroy it). Somehow doubt they would be doing that if "leave the EU" was at all a popular position.

    Oh yeah, most of them **** themselves when Brexit was actually voted for


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    #58
    Salary Negotiator
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,148 ✭✭✭Salary Negotiator


    KWAG2019 wrote: »
    "Rights" were put in q marks for reasons I gave in another post. In short, the CTA "rights" are an outworking of colonialism not equality.

    In your opinion, whatever their purpose way back when they are still rights that many people enjoy and make use of.
    KWAG2019 wrote: »
    I am the first I've seen to advocate for it. Originality is the only antidote to groupthink. ;)

    You claimed it was undermining the legal order of the EU - if that were actually the case then surely the EU itself would be calling for an end to the CTA. That it is just you would lead me to think that the CTA does not in fact undermine anything.
    KWAG2019 wrote: »
    I have outlined the negative impact of the CTA.

    You haven't really, nothing tangible at least.


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    #59
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    BorneTobyWilde wrote: »
    In all fairness if France got a chance to vote to leave they'd leave EU to, as would Belgium and Germany.
    The EU is now forced on people. They'd be terrified to let them vote on it.

    Marie LePen thinks otherwise, so; no.


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    #60
    Draco
    Subscribers Posts: 1,911 ✭✭✭Draco


    jimmycrackcorm wrote: »
    We cannot join Schengen without putting border controls with NI. Otherwise it's free flow from the continent to NI to mainland UK.
    For selfish reasons, I am fine with that happening. And I would presume it is the opposite flow that would be the actual issue for Schengen (determining who is coming in rather than leaving).


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    #61
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Why do you call them "ex-pats"?

    Call them what they are - they are British immigrants.

    Never understood why the British think their own emigrants are so exceptional as to be deserving of the term "ex-pat" and not "emigrant". Differentiates them in their own minds from the savages from all other countries I suppose.

    https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/new-online-resource-launched-for-irish-expats-seeking-to-move-home-945499.html
    https://www.irishpost.com/life-style/7-things-irish-expats-dont-miss-living-ireland-169393
    https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/abroad/it-s-tiring-being-an-expat-i-m-ready-to-be-irish-again-to-belong-1.3406484
    https://www.irelandbeforeyoudie.com/top-10-places-with-a-strong-irish-expat-community/


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