Common Travel Area

BorneTobyWilde

Wibbs wrote: »

Not quite. Outside of usually hard right wing parties and though more have expressed wanting more of a say in the EU through votes and referenda support for the EU has been going up since Brexit.

Most EU citizens don't want their countries to leave the Union but support a referendum on membership, according to a survey by Pew Research Center published Thursday.

Support for a national referendum on EU membership was particularly high in Spain (65 percent), France (61 percent), and Greece and Italy (both 57 percent).

Greece and Italy also recorded the highest level of support (35 percent) for an actual departure from the EU. France and Sweden followed, both on 22 percent.

But the EU is more popular than it was a year ago. Most of those polled in nine of 10 EU member countries hold a favorable view of Brussels, with support being highest in Poland (74 percent), Germany (68 percent) and Hungary (67 percent). In 2016, support for the EU was at 72 percent in Poland, 50 percent in Germany, and 61 percent in Hungary.

In Britain, a year after the 2016 referendum on exiting the EU, more than half of respondents (54 percent) now say they are positive about Europe, compared to 44 percent in the 2016 survey. Only Greeks view the EU more negatively now than they did a year ago, with one third currently holding positive views about the Union, compared to 27 percent in 2016.

It's info like this that convinced Cameron to allow a referendum, and convinced people to stay at home warm and cosy as Hilary had already won, no need to leave the house to vote.

Kermit.de.frog

Aegir wrote: »

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/new-online-resource-launched-for-irish-expats-seeking-to-move-home-945499.html
https://www.irishpost.com/life-style/7-things-irish-expats-dont-miss-living-ireland-169393
https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/abroad/it-s-tiring-being-an-expat-i-m-ready-to-be-irish-again-to-belong-1.3406484
https://www.irelandbeforeyoudie.com/top-10-places-with-a-strong-irish-expat-community/

That is just a random spill over language from the UK - it's usually not used to describe Irish emigrants abroad.

However, ex pat is always used in the British media to describe their own emigrants.

You know, those same emigrants who take jobs in other countries from the natives, many of them who make drunken hell holes of town after town in the Mediterranean and engage in drunken violence.

But, oh no, they are not immigrants to those countries, they are better - they are ex-pats. :rolleyes:

They really do have high opinions - it's so embedded in the culture they do it sub consciously.

Draco

Draco wrote: »

For purely selfish reasons, I would be happy to see the CTA dropped so we could join Schengen instead.

The EU/UK Withdrawal Agreement will (hopefully) make the RoI/NI border as seamless as possible as regards the trade of goods in the future and you want to muck it up as regards actual people crossing the very same border? No thanks. Schengen will not be implemented on this island for the foreseeable future for this reason IMO.

I live in China. I'm considered, and "defined" as an expat since I have no intention of gaining citizenship. Expat is an international term. I've encountered it in over a dozen countries to describe foreigners living in a country and working there.

KWAG2019

alastair wrote: »

It's not. And you haven't made any persuasive case.


Nothing to do with the CTA. You're conflating anti terrorism policy and procedures with the CTA, on the back of no evidence whatsoever. Flight arrangements within the CTA are no different today than they were in the 80's.

I'll repeat what I said in response to another poster about this: even when the CTA operated there were bureaucratic impositions on travellers. Theoretically the CTA gave passport and document free travel but the police form was there to be filled and you were checked. You also need a passport to book flights and board them. (Theoretically the CTA might say otherwise but airline policy dictates otherwise.) Now the reason I am referring to those is that the removal of the CTA would not necessarily lead to levels of bureaucracy that haven't already been experienced. I didn't claim that British police activity was a part of the CTA but it was there for those from Ireland using the CTA to enter Britain.

Regarding the persuasive case it might be important to see that the CTA is only becoming a live issue as Britain exits the EU. EU wide freedom of movement has masked it for many years: its status after Brexit is much more fluid. I expect any proposal to look at it to lead to rejection, negative comments, criticism, some rational, some economic, some based on views of the relationships between Ireland and the UK and the EU that I don't share. The case will develop. I can't link to an article in Germany on Twitter yesterday where it was argued that the NI part of the WA should be referred immediately to the EU courts to check is it compatible with EU law. This is only beginning.

Donald Trump

Hey OP.

Do you agree that we should scrap visa-free travel between EU and the US?

I mean, there are agreements that citizens of certain countries, such as Ireland, can visit the US without a visa but citizens of some other countries such as Poland, cannot.

KWAG2019

KWAG2019 wrote: »

I'll repeat what I said in response to another poster about this: even when the CTA operated there were bureaucratic impositions on travellers. Theoretically the CTA gave passport and document free travel but the police form was there to be filled and you were checked. You also need a passport to book flights and board them. (Theoretically the CTA might say otherwise but airline policy dictates otherwise.) Now the reason I am referring to those is that the removal of the CTA would not necessarily lead to levels of bureaucracy that haven't already been experienced. I didn't claim that British police activity was a part of the CTA but it was there for those from Ireland using the CTA to enter Britain.

Regarding the persuasive case it might be important to see that the CTA is only becoming a live issue as Britain exits the EU. EU wide freedom of movement has masked it for many years: its status after Brexit is much more fluid. I expect any proposal to look at it to lead to rejection, negative comments, criticism, some rational, some economic, some based on views of the relationships between Ireland and the UK and the EU that I don't share. The case will develop. I can't link to an article in Germany on Twitter yesterday where it was argued that the NI part of the WA should be referred immediately to the EU courts to check is it compatible with EU law. This is only beginning.

It isn't a live issue, other than in your head. The Irish Government, British Government and the EU commission have already agreed that it continues.

so what you are saying, is that regardless of what the european union says, the Irish Government, the British government and every political party on this island, you think having to show a passport twice when driving from Clones to Clonagore isn't too much of a problem?

KWAG2019

Donald Trump wrote: »

Hey OP.

Do you agree that we should scrap visa-free travel between EU and the US?

I mean, there are agreements that citizens of certain countries, such as Ireland, can visit the US without a visa but citizens of some other countries such as Poland, cannot.

An excellent point. Visa agreements can be agreed. The EU has such in place for short term travel after Brexit. Whether that will still stand after the dust settles this year remains to be seen.

mariaalice

Aegir wrote: »

It isn't a live issue, other than in your head. The Irish Government, British Government and the EU commission have already agreed that it continues.

so what you are saying, is that regardless of what the european union says, the Irish Government, the British government and every political party on this island, you think having to show a passport twice when driving from Clones to Clonagore isn't too much of a problem?

The OP head might explode if he was listing to the RTE news today the newsreader said...The Queen opened parliament, not the Queen of England, not the sovereign head of another state opened parliament just the Queen.

KWAG2019

Aegir wrote: »

It isn't a live issue, other than in your head. The Irish Government, British Government and the EU commission have already agreed that it continues.

so what you are saying, is that regardless of what the european union says, the Irish Government, the British government and every political party on this island, you think having to show a passport twice when driving from Clones to Clonagore isn't too much of a problem?

I think you will find that dissenting voices in the EU about the exceptions being made in Ireland will emerge more.

An EU-UK wide agreement on travel applicable to all EU citizens should take care of your passport issue. A revised and much more limited CTA confined to travel would also be possible. It’s not the current CTA or bust. I cannot have the same levels of trust others have in anything agreed by this government. Their list of incompetencies is mind boggling.

KWAG2019

mariaalice wrote: »

The OP head might explode if he was listing to the RTE news today the newsreader said...The Queen opened parliament, not the Queen of England, not the sovereign head of another state opened parliament just the Queen.

I see your vacuous ad hominems continue. RTEs promotion of deference to the UK monarchy is something I take for granted. And the efficacy of the ignore button.

mariaalice

KWAG2019 wrote: »

I see your vacuous ad hominems continue. RTEs promotion of deference to the UK monarchy is something I take for granted. And the efficacy of the ignore button.

In some of your posts, you refer to citizens of the UK as brits which is generally understood as a vulgar diminutive.

So which is it, an erudite logical rational reasoned argument about the CTA or vulgar stereotypes of the united kingdom and British citizens.

Donald Trump

KWAG2019 wrote: »

An excellent point. Visa agreements can be agreed. The EU has such in place for short term travel after Brexit. Whether that will still stand after the dust settles this year remains to be seen.

I think my point went over your head.

You appear to think that Ireland and UK cannot have their own agreements for visa free travel/work just because it does not apply to the entire EU equally.

I am merely pointing out that, applying the same standards, individual countries would not be allowed to accept visa free travel to any third country unless and until it was extended to all EU countries equally.

One current example of this is the Visa Waiver Program (VWP) which exists between US and a number of countries around the world - including Ireland. However all EU countries are not included. Given that, do you think that Ireland should withdraw from the VWP?

KWAG2019

Donald Trump wrote: »

I think my point went over your head.

You appear to think that Ireland and UK cannot have their own agreements for visa free travel/work just because it does not apply to the entire EU equally.

I am merely pointing out that, applying the same standards, individual countries would not be allowed to accept visa free travel to any third country unless and until it was extended to all EU countries equally.

One current example of this is the Visa Waiver Program (VWP) which exists between US and a number of countries around the world - including Ireland. However all EU countries are not included. Given that, do you think that Ireland should withdraw from the VWP?

You don’t seem to understand what the CTA is.

KWAG2019

KWAG2019 wrote: »

I think you will find that dissenting voices in the EU about the exceptions being made in Ireland will emerge more.

An EU-UK wide agreement on travel applicable to all EU citizens should take care of your passport issue. A revised and much more limited CTA confined to travel would also be possible. It’s not the current CTA or bust. I cannot have the same levels of trust others have in anything agreed by this government. Their list of incompetencies is mind boggling.

And voting rights for those in the north? The U.K. should remove those from people who identify as Irish?

KWAG2019

Aegir wrote: »

And voting rights for those in the north? The U.K. should remove those from people who identify as Irish?

Do you think they should? As the Brits regard them as UK citizens how would they do that?

KWAG2019

I am done for today. Will check in tomorrow.

joseywhales

The problem is not an ingrained britishness in Ireland, it is the fact that we all speak English, if you want to truely decouple you must change the language.

Also we are in a predicament of appeasing unionist so as to remove a foreign occupation. It is something we must do as we have neither the power nor the right to commit genocide.

The cta is fine because it is reciprocal, neither party has greater power in the arrangement, so nothing to worry about, perhaps the British should worry about the ingrained irishness in their society?

alastair

KWAG2019 wrote: »

I'll repeat what I said in response to another poster about this: even when the CTA operated there were bureaucratic impositions on travellers. Theoretically the CTA gave passport and document free travel but the police form was there to be filled and you were checked. You also need a passport to book flights and board them. (Theoretically the CTA might say otherwise but airline policy dictates otherwise.) Now the reason I am referring to those is that the removal of the CTA would not necessarily lead to levels of bureaucracy that haven't already been experienced. I didn't claim that British police activity was a part of the CTA but it was there for those from Ireland using the CTA to enter Britain.

Regarding the persuasive case it might be important to see that the CTA is only becoming a live issue as Britain exits the EU. EU wide freedom of movement has masked it for many years: its status after Brexit is much more fluid. I expect any proposal to look at it to lead to rejection, negative comments, criticism, some rational, some economic, some based on views of the relationships between Ireland and the UK and the EU that I don't share. The case will develop. I can't link to an article in Germany on Twitter yesterday where it was argued that the NI part of the WA should be referred immediately to the EU courts to check is it compatible with EU law. This is only beginning.

Nope - there were no police forms. And you were checked far less frequently than you weren’t. And it’s still the case that you need passports for even Ryanair domestic flights - the ‘bureaucratic impositions’ were nothing to do with the CTA, indirectly or otherwise. The CTA did, and does, offer document free travel, but airlines and ferries are free to require whatever ID they like.

The CTA isn’t becoming a live issue at all. Expect nothing to change.

KWAG2019

KWAG2019 wrote: »

Do you think they should? As the Brits regard them as UK citizens how would they do that?

Have you read the good Friday agreement?

Donald Trump

KWAG2019 wrote: »

You don’t seem to understand what the CTA is.

I don't think you understand how freedom of movement works dude.

Ireland is in the EU. Spain is in the EU. Citizens of Ireland are entitled to travel to or work in Spain. Citizens of Spain are entitled to travel to or work in Ireland.

If Ireland wants to grant Visas for 10,000 Chinese nationals to come to study in Ireland, that does not affect Spain. So they can do it if they want to without asking for Spain's permission.
If Spain allows people from Ecuador easy access to work there and also allows Ecuadorians living there to vote in Spanish elections (this is actually the case), it does not affect Paddy in Mullingar. There is no requirement for Ireland to offer the same conditions to Ecuadorians nor is Spain required to offer the same conditions to all third countries. (Of course, many treaties are performed at EU level, but they do not have to be. It is just more simple when they can be)


You might have been listening to too much Farage mealy mouthed shite about wanting to bring in educated people from China or India etc., giving the impression that they are somehow prevented from doing that now. They aren't.

Marcusm

Aegir wrote: »

And voting rights for those in the north? The U.K. should remove those from people who identify as Irish?

Why when Irish citizens have full voting rights in the U.K. generally.

woohoo!!!

I get the point about moving away from undue deference to the UK establishment, who have exposed themselves for exactly what they are. Economically we're going to be moving away, politically they're not to be trusted over anything.

In this light, keeping an overview on CTA is sensible as we become more European in our outlook. It's not anti UK, it's recognising that the UK will not retain its past primacy in our interests in the future.

purplepanda

Denmark, Sweden, Norway Finland, Faroe Islands & Iceland have a passport free Nordic Passport Union & are not members of the Schengen Area. Norway, Iceland & Faroe Islands are not in the EU.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Passport_Union

Seems like another version of the British - Irish council / C.T.A. which also includes the Isle of Man, Jersey & Guernsey.

Myself & the son travelled from Lubeck Germany to Copenhagen during the migrant crisis in summer 2016. It was total chaos as German, Danish & Swedish customs & government officials tried to deal with the situation on trains, ferry's ports & rail stations. The duty free shop & pursers office on the ferry were overwhelmed by some travelling migrants & stripped of cash & luxury items. Police were stopping & travelling on trains & military personnel were also drafted. Passengers were being robbed & assaulted whilst travelling.

It was so bad that temporary border controls were implemented since which were only stopped very recently.

How do we know abolishing the C.T.A. won't result in total chaos? Ireland obviously can't join the Schengen Area, because of the N.I. border & Brexit anyway.

fly_agaric

purplepanda wrote: »

Denmark, Sweden, Norway Finland, Faroe Islands & Iceland have a passport free Nordic Passport Union & are not members of the Schengen Area. Norway, Iceland & Faroe Islands are not in the EU.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Passport_Union

Seems like another version of the British - Irish council / C.T.A. which also includes the Isle of Man, Jersey & Guernsey.

Would be great if UK ended up as close to EU as Norway & Iceland but it seems unlikely with the mood music & views of the conservative party leadership. The final EU-UK relationship could end up more like EU-Canada or EU-Turkey or even EU-Russia. It gets harder to have + maintain such close relations with the UK (as embodied in likes of the CTA) if we are going one way (hitching our star to the EU, the core countries of which may become even closer involved with each other in future) and they are going in totally the opposite direction.

alastair

fly_agaric wrote: »

Would be great if UK ended up as close to EU as Norway & Iceland but it seems unlikely with the mood music & views of the conservative party leadership. The final EU-UK relationship could end up more like EU-Canada or EU-Turkey or even EU-Russia. It gets harder to have + maintain such close relations with the UK (as embodied in likes of the CTA) if we are going one way (hitching our star to the EU, the core countries of which may become even closer involved with each other in future) and they are going in totally the opposite direction.

The U.K. is four more times dependent on the EU as an export market than Canada, their star is hitched to the EU, whether in or out of the club.

Charles Babbage

purplepanda wrote: »

Denmark, Sweden, Norway Finland, Faroe Islands & Iceland have a passport free Nordic Passport Union & are not members of the Schengen Area. Norway, Iceland & Faroe Islands are not in the EU.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Passport_Union

The article you link to states "Since 25 March 2001, all five states have also been within the Schengen Area" hence no problem.

The Faroe Islands are an outlier, but being small makes things possible.



The bottom line is that pending reunification in Ireland joining Schengen is moot.

Spanish Eyes

Who would want to go to Blighy anyway. It’s a kip.

Oh wait, there’s another truck full of illegal migrants. Sorry. I was wrong....

As to why anyone would willingly immigrate to UK I cannot figure that out. Not a welcoming place imv. But I am sure I will be proven wrong, lord knows why though!

0lddog

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Who would want to go to Blighy anyway. It’s a kip. ...

+1

Its over a year since this was published
https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=23881

have there been any improvements ?

Spanish Eyes

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Who would want to go to Blighy anyway. It’s a kip.

Oh wait, there’s another truck full of illegal migrants. Sorry. I was wrong....

As to why anyone would willingly immigrate to UK I cannot figure that out. Not a welcoming place imv. But I am sure I will be proven wrong, lord knows why though!

If you find it unwelcoming, that is probably a reflection on you, rather then the country.