backdating tenancy

circular flexing

Mad_maxx wrote: »

the property is a two bed apartment , i can only assume the utility bills are in the occupants name but i will look into that , i should have done so when i visited the place last friday night .

if the fixed term lease duration has expired , granted the tenants still have protection under part 4 or further part 4 but do any conditions like utility bills live on , if those unusual conditions were put in a fixed term lease and that lease was only for a year , one might think those no longer transferred to me ?

If the conditions were in the original lease then yes they would continue even after the fixed term expires.

dennyk

Mad_maxx wrote: »

a few questions , as its not possible to conduct a rent review while in a fixed term lease , what is the longest possible duration for a fixed term lease ?

under the further part 4 cycle , assuming i can still carry out a rent review ? , can i issue a rent arrears as a prelude to an eviction notice or does the further part 4 shield the tenants from this even they dont pay the increased rent post review ?

There's no specific limit to the length of a fixed term, it just has to be a fixed term. For ordinary residential tenancies, terms of more than a year are pretty uncommon, though, and terms spanning many years are virtually unheard, of barring extraordinary circumstances. If it came to a tribunal, the RTB might look askance at a ridiculously long lease term, especially if the tenant was claiming such an agreement with a previous landlord who can't be brought in to confirm or deny it.

You can carry out a rent review during a Further Part 4 cycle, subject to the statutory restrictions and regulations. If your tenant doesn't pay the new rent from the date it takes effect, they would be in arrears and you could serve the 14-day notice to correct followed by the 28-day notice to vacate. Even if they challenge your rent review notice with the RTB, they still need to pay the new rent until the RTB has issued a ruling one way or the other, and they can still be issued notice for arrears if they fail to pay (though if things have gone downhill that much, they'll likely challenge that notice as well, or just flat refuse to leave, and then you're in it for the long haul...). Just make certain you dot all your i's and cross your T's on the review and notice, though; if an RTB case goes against you, you'll have to pay back all the additional rent in addition to starting the whole review process over again from scratch.

Mad_maxx wrote: »

the property is a two bed apartment , i can only assume the utility bills are in the occupants name but i will look into that , i should have done so when i visited the place last friday night .

if the fixed term lease duration has expired , granted the tenants still have protection under part 4 or further part 4 but do any conditions like utility bills live on , if those unusual conditions were put in a fixed term lease and that lease was only for a year , one might think those no longer transferred to me ?

As that condition isn't directly related to the rent amount or the fixed term length, it would generally survive the transition to a periodic tenancy at the end of the fixed term. Again, though, have you actually seen a tenancy agreement which specifies this arrangement? If the occupants have the utilities in their name and they don't have a written agreement specifying that the landlord is responsible for the bills, the chances of them successfully bringing a case against you to force you to pay those bills is pretty damn slim, I'd imagine (though again, ask your solicitor for advice...).

Mad_maxx

circular flexing wrote: »

If the conditions were in the original lease then yes they would continue even after the fixed term expires.

having read dennyk,s post over again , im in agreement with you

Mad_maxx

dennyk wrote: »

There's no specific limit to the length of a fixed term, it just has to be a fixed term. For ordinary residential tenancies, terms of more than a year are pretty uncommon, though, and terms spanning many years are virtually unheard, of barring extraordinary circumstances. If it came to a tribunal, the RTB might look askance at a ridiculously long lease term, especially if the tenant was claiming such an agreement with a previous landlord who can't be brought in to confirm or deny it.

You can carry out a rent review during a Further Part 4 cycle, subject to the statutory restrictions and regulations. If your tenant doesn't pay the new rent from the date it takes effect, they would be in arrears and you could serve the 14-day notice to correct followed by the 28-day notice to vacate. Even if they challenge your rent review notice with the RTB, they still need to pay the new rent until the RTB has issued a ruling one way or the other, and they can still be issued notice for arrears if they fail to pay (though if things have gone downhill that much, they'll likely challenge that notice as well, or just flat refuse to leave, and then you're in it for the long haul...). Just make certain you dot all your i's and cross your T's on the review and notice, though; if an RTB case goes against you, you'll have to pay back all the additional rent in addition to starting the whole review process over again from scratch.



As that condition isn't directly related to the rent amount or the fixed term length, it would generally survive the transition to a periodic tenancy at the end of the fixed term. Again, though, have you actually seen a tenancy agreement which specifies this arrangement? If the occupants have the utilities in their name and they don't have a written agreement specifying that the landlord is responsible for the bills, the chances of them successfully bringing a case against you to force you to pay those bills is pretty damn slim, I'd imagine (though again, ask your solicitor for advice...).

did you say earlier that the terms of the fixed term lease ( even the term itself has expired ) live on through further part 4 and can only be superseded by way of a new lease signed by both parties , as such , is a rent review obsolete until those original fixed term lease conditions are replaced with new terms and conditions ?

circular flexing

Mad_maxx wrote: »

did you say earlier that the terms of the fixed term lease ( even the term itself has expired ) live on through further part 4 and can only be superseded by way of a new lease signed by both parties , as such , is a rent review obsolete until those original fixed term lease conditions are replaced with new terms and conditions ?

No you can review the rent at any time, so long as enough time has expired between last rent review and proposed new rent date.

TheChizler

Mad_maxx wrote: »

So if i register the tenancy, seeing as you must give three months notice for a rent review, presumably that means I must receive 500 euro per month and cover the utility bills for the first three months as the tenants word on it alone guarantees this is the conditions inherent?

what if after three months and the tenants choose not to pay the extra rent, am I stuck with the utility bills obligation, i can issue a termination notice for rent arrears but that would leave me paying for the electricity and gas until i managed to get them out as you can't simply turn off the power

IF that was the previous agreement (and it's a big if, I'd be looking for proof) then yes you have to cover bills for now. Maybe you could come to an agreement where you stop covering bills in exchange for a smaller rent increase. It's not impossible to change the static quo if everyone's on board.

dennyk

Mad_maxx wrote: »

did you say earlier that the terms of the fixed term lease ( even the term itself has expired ) live on through further part 4 and can only be superseded by way of a new lease signed by both parties , as such , is a rent review obsolete until those original fixed term lease conditions are replaced with new terms and conditions ?

No, once the fixed term has expired, the rent can be reviewed and changed unilaterally by the landlord as per the regulations covering rent reviews in the RTA. All other terms in the original agreement except the rent amount would continue beyond the original fixed term for the remainder of the tenancy, though, and generally can't be altered or removed without the agreement of the tenant (nor could any new non-rent-related terms be imposed by the landlord without the tenant's agreement). Changing the rent amount is a special case that is specifically allowed by statute.

Mad_maxx

dennyk wrote: »

No, once the fixed term has expired, the rent can be reviewed and changed unilaterally by the landlord as per the regulations covering rent reviews in the RTA. All other terms in the original agreement except the rent amount would continue beyond the original fixed term for the remainder of the tenancy, though, and generally can't be altered or removed without the agreement of the tenant (nor could any new non-rent-related terms be imposed by the landlord without the tenant's agreement). Changing the rent amount is a special case that is specifically allowed by statute.

in that case , i would actually be ok with continuing to cover the utility bills , i could just increase the rent to the very maximum amount ( had planned to go a hundred euro lower ) and cover the utility bills , probably be no more than three hundred per month for electricity and gas , not ideal but id still have 700 per month NET

were i to cover utility bills for the next few years , how long until the tenancy ( further part 4 ) expires and thus allow me to discontinue the utility bill obligation or is that condition ( landlord covering utility bills ) there until i can get the tenants to agree to waive it ?

also , you say most fixed term leases are one year and so rent is excluded from the effects of the fixed term lease living on through further part 4 , is it conceivable however that the landlord and tenant signed a multi year lease agreement akin to a commercial lease , say ten or twenty years ?

L1011

Mad_maxx wrote: »

in that case , i would actually be ok with continuing to cover the utility bills , i could just increase the rent to the very maximum amount ( had planned to go a hundred euro lower ) and cover the utility bills , probably be no more than three hundred per month for electricity and gas , not ideal but id still have 700 per month NET

were i to cover utility bills for the next few years , how long until the tenancy ( further part 4 ) expires and thus allow me to discontinue the utility bill obligation or is that condition ( landlord covering utility bills ) there until i can get the tenants to agree to waive it ?

If its in the lease, I'm fairly sure there's no way to discontinue it for those tenants, except by their consent to sign a new lease without it. The post Part 4/Further Part 4 period is just for giving a no reason termination notice.

What name are the existing utility accounts in and have they been paid at all since the receivership began?

circular flexing

Mad_maxx wrote: »

in that case , i would actually be ok with continuing to cover the utility bills , i could just increase the rent to the very maximum amount ( had planned to go a hundred euro lower ) and cover the utility bills , probably be no more than three hundred per month for electricity and gas , not ideal but id still have 700 per month NET

were i to cover utility bills for the next few years , how long until the tenancy ( further part 4 ) expires and thus allow me to discontinue the utility bill obligation or is that condition ( landlord covering utility bills ) there until i can get the tenants to agree to waive it ?

You're assuming tenants would be ok with such an increase, they may not be.

The conditions will continue until such time that the tenancy is terminated or a new lease is agreed. So if it does roll over and carry on as the existing tenancy then the same conditions will prevail.

Mad_maxx

TheChizler wrote: »

IF that was the previous agreement (and it's a big if, I'd be looking for proof) then yes you have to cover bills for now. Maybe you could come to an agreement where you stop covering bills in exchange for a smaller rent increase. It's not impossible to change the static quo if everyone's on board.

trouble is , even the tenant cant produce proof , what can i do about it ?

onus is on me to find solutions

L1011

Mad_maxx wrote: »

trouble is , even the tenant cant produce proof , what can i do about it ?

onus is on me to find solutions

If the bills are in their name, you may have to weigh up the risk between can't and "can't"; which could come back to bite you in an extremely expensive way if you guess wrong. There is a chance, however small, that a fast one is being played here.

You need to try every possible angle to obtain a copy of the lease, and that's where a solicitor experienced in this is going to be invaluable.

Mad_maxx

L1011 wrote: »

If its in the lease, I'm fairly sure there's no way to discontinue it for those tenants, except by their consent to sign a new lease without it. The post Part 4/Further Part 4 period is just for giving a no reason termination notice.

What name are the existing utility accounts in and have they been paid at all since the receivership began?

i didnt think to enquire about utility bills when i visited the property last friday , i will aim to visit again in the next few weeks

the old landlord must have been a bigger idiot than i am , who would enter into a fixed term lease with conditions like that when you consider how enduring said conditions are ?

L1011

Mad_maxx wrote: »

the old landlord must have been a bigger idiot than i am , who would enter into a fixed term lease with conditions like that when you consider how enduring said conditions are ?

If they ended up going broke they may have been agreeing anything that got cashflow in. If they're there 6+ years, the rental market was very different then particularly outside the current RPZ areas.

Mad_maxx

circular flexing wrote: »

You're assuming tenants would be ok with such an increase, they may not be.

The conditions will continue until such time that the tenancy is terminated or a new lease is agreed. So if it does roll over and carry on as the existing tenancy then the same conditions will prevail.

yes but if a rent review is exempt from the conditions of any fixed term lease agreed a number of years ago ( as denny k says ) , thus allowing me to conduct a rent review , should the tenants then not pay the new rent , i can issue them with a rent arrears notice and in due course subsequently issue a termination of tenancy notice ?

surely a combination of further part 4 and the enduring conditions of a fixed term lease ( however favourable to tenants ) doesnt give them immunity from withholding rent or immunity from the ending of a tenancy ?

Mad_maxx

dennyk wrote: »

No, once the fixed term has expired, the rent can be reviewed and changed unilaterally by the landlord as per the regulations covering rent reviews in the RTA. All other terms in the original agreement except the rent amount would continue beyond the original fixed term for the remainder of the tenancy, though, and generally can't be altered or removed without the agreement of the tenant (nor could any new non-rent-related terms be imposed by the landlord without the tenant's agreement). Changing the rent amount is a special case that is specifically allowed by statute.

if i conduct a rent review and the tenants go into arrears - refuse to pay the new rent . am i still obliged to pay the utility bills for the two years it might then take to pursue them for rent arrears with a view to eviction ?

presumably i am if its in the fixed term lease ?

along with no rent for two years , that twenty four months of paying the electricity and gas bills .

this might well just end my marriage the way its shaping up

Graham

Mod Note

Mad_maxx we've clearly moved on from general discussion here into the land of you seeking specific legal advice around the nuances of a lease which may or may not exist.

You need to seek professional/legal advice from someone who is in position of all the facts.

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