More "Congestion Charge" talk from the Department of Transport

Beta Ray Bill

Read this today

Congestion charges are once again being considered as a way to tackle gridlock in cities around the country.

It comes after a new report has found that the cost of congestion is set to approach €2bn annually by the end of the next decade.

A new report for the Department of Transport has found that congestion causes an increase in business costs, stress, pollution and a reduction in quality of life and inward investment.

According to today's Herald, around 65% of households use a car and a new transport policy is aimed at reducing it to 45%.


An increase in the supply of public transport would be the first response but the expansion of the Dart and MetroLink in Dublin and the Bus Connects projects around the country are medium to long-term projects.

The report found that even then, measures to deter car users such as congestion charges would be needed to prevent gridlock.

The warning comes following another week of traffic chaos with the pre-Christmas rush, poor weather and the normal commuter crush combining to bring streets to a standstill.

Studies have shown though that transport issues are not just confined to this time of year.

I live in the Big Schmoke, have done my whole life. It's no secret that the traffic issues we have now are as worse as they've ever been.
It's so bad that I've stopped using my motorcycle and am now completely reliant on Public transport, which is grand. I'm lucky to live close to the DART. It should be noted however if I had to get the bus I'd be back on the motorcycle.
I may also have to switch back to the motorcycle in the next few months as the DART service is now at capacity in the mornings and there is thousands of apartments being built further up the line. (I may not be able to get on a DART coming from Malahide and may need to wait for one coming Howth)

This topic seems to be coming up more and more.
I do not think it would be effective though as people will just pay the charge.

I've had a look at the figures though, the number of cars entering the city everyday has been on a downward trend for the last 12 years, with cycling a walking climbing in the last 9.



Begs the question though, why is the traffic worse now?

In Dublin the number of commuters per day in 2016 was roughly 265,000, in 2011 was roughly 228,000, and in 2006 was roughly 252,000... So as a mean, the number of people travelling to Dublin per day hasn't changed much in the last 12 years. (I cannot get up to date 2019 figures, nor car I get info on where they are travelling from )

To me this sounds like just another way to Tax the ordinary Joe going about their business.
As I mentioned I may have to go back to the motorcycle, the idea of having to pay a congestion charge for using the most efficient mode of transport actually disgusts me.
I've been saying for a long time, "My next job wont be in the city centre if I can avoid it", I'd even be inclined to take a small pay cut if it meant 10 min drive to work.

What think ye?
Solution to the problem, Or just another Tax.

Thelonious Monk

Excellent news. It's an absolute disgrace how little room is given to pedestrians and cyclists in the city centre. I was in town yesterday and South William St for example was a car parked on each side of the road, and a traffic jam in the middle, with 2 or 3ft of pavement for pedestrians which outnumbered cars by probably 100 to 1.
I really hope they do whatever it takes to discourage this type of behaviour. A tax on people driving to town to do shopping isn't a tax on the ordinary Joe going about their business in my opinion.
Btw op, what's wrong with going back to motorbike? We should be encouraging 2 wheels in all formats. 2 wheels good, 4 wheels bad!

cruizer101

There is another thread on this in Motors but may be more appropriate here anyway.
Interesting chart, I would have thought car numbers had increased (maybe they have 2019 but still general trend has been down).
What really stands out for me though is the lack of movement in Bus, before anysort of penalty for driving in is introduced (and in theory I'm a fan of the concept) there needs to be viable alternative.
The amount going in by bus hasn't increased not because people don't want to get the bus, buses are regularly packed, but because there isn't enough decent services of either bus or alternative luas/rail.

Thelonious Monk

You have to take into account the buses being delayed every morning by bus lanes thronged with private cars and taxis. All that would have to stop if we wanted to speed things up.

Fr_Dougal

In the absence of public transportation that can cater for the people who want to use it, it’s hard not to treat a congestion charge as anything else but a tax.

The government even accepts that there are capacity issues, they have ordered more trains but it will be a few more years before they can be delivered.

Beta Ray Bill

cruizer101 wrote: »

There is another thread on this in Motors but may be more appropriate here anyway.
Interesting chart, I would have thought car numbers had increased (maybe they have 2019 but still general trend has been down).
What really stands out for me though is the lack of movement in Bus, before anysort of penalty for driving in is introduced (and in theory I'm a fan of the concept) there needs to be viable alternative.
The amount going in by bus hasn't increased not because people don't want to get the bus, buses are regularly packed, but because there isn't enough decent services of either bus or alternative luas/rail.

It should be noted that the graph represents each individual mode of transport
IE
1 Car (doesn't mention on average how many people were in the car)
1 Person
1 Bus (doesn't mention on average how many people were in the Bus)
1 Cyclist

But yes, the number of Buses (no mention of how full they are) entering the city has remained stagnant it would seem

In terms of Luas and Rail, those systems are also suffering from congestion issues

Beta Ray Bill

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

You have to take into account the buses being delayed every morning by bus lanes thronged with private cars and taxis. All that would have to stop if we wanted to speed things up.

The thing that holds buses up the most is mostly other buses.
People getting on and off the bus at a bus stop hold up all the other buses.
During busy periods it can take up to 2 or 3 minutes to unload/load per stop.
Buses don't accelerate fast either.

Second to that are cyclists, the guys that travel/cycle at speed are grand, it's the slow pokes in the bus lane that the buses can't get past is what slows them up (dedicated cycle lane with a kerb is the answer here. The kerb will keep cyclists off the road and keep motorists off the cycle lane...... required knocking down a heap of buildings though! )

Thirdly are peopl wishing to turn left, no choice but to enter the bus lane farther back down the road if the traffic is heavy

Seth Brundle

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

Thirdly are peopl wishing to turn left, no choice but to enter the bus lane farther back down the road if the traffic is heavy

They do have a choice. They could, and should, wait until they can move left legally.
What usually happens is that the bus lane becomes choked with cars turning left and then if there is any delay this delays subsequent busses further.
The most important rule to anyone new driving in Dublin is to not give a crap about anyone but yourself, then you'll fit in fine

Thelonious Monk

I work with people from Clondalkin, and Ballyfermot, and used to work with a girl from Artane who all drove to work in D2. Ridiculous.
Some kind of proof of address might help, as in the congestion charge could be based on how much you actually need to drive to town to make it fair.

Beta Ray Bill

Seth Brundle wrote: »

They do have a choice. They could, and should, wait until they can move left legally.
What usually happens is that the bus lane becomes choked with cars turning left and then if there is any delay this delays subsequent busses further.
The most important rule to anyone new driving in Dublin is to not give a crap about anyone but yourself, then you'll fit in fine

But "they" won't.
If you're in your lane looking to turn left, avoiding entering the bus lane until the appropriate time.
All that's going to happen there is some other car is going to enter it, and another and another and another (all turning left btw) and now you've to hold up traffic behind you while you wait for someone in the left lane to let you in.

For me the saying: "They Should" is extremely irritating.
99.999% of the time "They Should" is completely incompatible with the real world and actual default human behavior.

You are right though about Dublin driving behavior.... It's P*ss poor!

Seth Brundle

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

But "they" won't.

Which is why any new transportation changes will require a lot of enforcement with near zero tolerance.

Thelonious Monk

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

In the absence of public transportation that can cater for the people who want to use it, it’s hard not to treat a congestion charge as anything else but a tax.

The government even accepts that there are capacity issues, they have ordered more trains but it will be a few more years before they can be delivered.

How do you propose getting cars out of the city otherwise? Because we're not going to have any better public transport options in the next 10 years.
I'm pretty sure we'll just continue as is and the traffic will get worse and worse until the next recession though.

Beta Ray Bill

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I work with people from Clondalkin, and Ballyfermot, and used to work with a girl from Artane who all drove to work in D2. Ridiculous.
Some kind of proof of address might help, as in the congestion charge could be based on how much you actually need to drive to town to make it fair.

Do you mean like people who commute from the likes of Wexford to Dublin (3000 people a day btw :eek: ) should not have to pay the congestion charge because they're so far away?

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Which is why any new transportation changes will require a lot of enforcement with near zero tolerance.

Agreed, but where is that money for enforcement coming from? This kind of goes around in circles. Everything require money, which mostly means tax

Allinall

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

In the absence of public transportation that can cater for the people who want to use it, it’s hard not to treat a congestion charge as anything else but a tax.

The government even accepts that there are capacity issues, they have ordered more trains but it will be a few more years before they can be delivered.

Introduce a relatively stiff congestion charge and watch the number of private cars entering the city decrease dramatically.

Then you have the space to provide more public transport.

The notion that people will not get out of their cars until public transport is improved is rubbish.

Or they could look at ya know, moving some jobs out of city centre...

More incentives for companies to move into suburbs and greater Dublin area.

But no, let’s just bring in another tax that people will pay and the issues remain.

Fr_Dougal

Allinall wrote: »

Introduce a relatively stiff congestion charge and watch the number of private cars entering the city decrease dramatically.

Then you have the space to provide more public transport.

The notion that people will not get out of their cars until public transport is improved is rubbish.

Public transport isn’t available, that’s the issue. London put on an extra 300 buses on Day 1. of the charge

Idbatterim

Tax parking spaces in city centre for employers that give them for free and a euro to cross the canals. Money to be ringfenced for Dublin area projects. Might stop a lot of the local lazy trips. That said , the buses are appalling, stopping every few seconds and the fact they aren’t cashless yet is a joke, they are so slow.

I ditched car for buses for a while and for certain journeys , I’m going back to taking the car for these. Bus was unbearable.

A Dublin bus should offer the exact same service as air coach down n11, with cheaper prices it might get more traffic off m50 and town

end of the road

Idbatterim wrote: »

Tax parking spaces in city centre for employers that give them for free and a euro to cross the canals. Money to be ringfenced for Dublin area projects. Might stop a lot of the local lazy trips. That said , the buses are appalling, stopping every few seconds and the fact they aren’t cashless yet is a joke, they are so slow.

I ditched car for buses for a while and for certain journeys , I’m going back to taking the car for these. Bus was unbearable.

A Dublin bus should offer the exact same service as air coach down n11, with cheaper prices it might get more traffic off m50 and town

stopping every few minutes or so is exactly what a city bus service is meant to do.
there might be some scope for some expresso services but you aren't going to get an aircoach style service from a city bus service.

Better Than Christ

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

You have to take into account the buses being delayed every morning by bus lanes thronged with private cars and taxis. All that would have to stop if we wanted to speed things up.

Even when the bus lane isn't thronged with cars, most bus lanes are barely wide enough for a bus. All it takes is one badly positioned car in traffic with two wheels on or over the white line and the bus is going nowhere fast.

Beta Ray Bill wrote:

The thing that holds buses up the most is mostly other buses.
People getting on and off the bus at a bus stop hold up all the other buses.
During busy periods it can take up to 2 or 3 minutes to unload/load per stop.
Buses don't accelerate fast either.

I drive buses in Dublin every day and private cars hold me up more than anything. For example, when a bus is pulling out from a bus stop, the driver/passengers shouldn't have to wait for car drivers to give them 'permission' to continue their journey. Make it mandatory for cars to give way to buses at all times.

I'd even make it mandatory for buses to have right-of-way on roundabouts. As you say, they don't accelerate very quickly (the newer ones are particularly slow), which makes certain roundabouts almost impossible to navigate. If I was to follow the rules and wait until it's clear to enter a busy roundabout, I could easily be there for five or ten minutes, maybe even longer, with a string of traffic behind me. So there are times when all I can do is open the cab window, put my hand up and make eye-contact, in the (usually vain) hope that the driver I'm about to pull out in front of will have a bit of decency and won't do the unnecessarily dramatic 'accelerate, slam on the brakes, blast the horn' nonsense.

I'm not keen on the idea of congestion charges. That's just 'selling indulgences' to anyone who can afford it. Invest in more buses and gradually take more and more space and 'rights' away from cars and give more and more priority to pedestrians, cyclists and public transport.

Idbatterim

end of the road wrote: »

stopping every few minutes or so is exactly what a city bus service is meant to do.
there might be some scope for some expresso services but you aren't going to get an aircoach style service from a city bus service.

Some of the stops are 2-3 hundred meters apart. It’s a farce !

Thelonious Monk

Just keep the tractors in town and the city will be a pedestrian and cyclist paradise.

end of the road

Idbatterim wrote: »

Some of the stops are 2-3 hundred meters apart. It’s a farce !

it's the city bus service in thecapital city, so such frequent stopping will be par for the course depending on the route.

Beta Ray Bill

Better Than Christ wrote: »

Even when the bus lane isn't thronged with cars, most bus lanes are barely wide enough for a bus. All it takes is one badly positioned car in traffic with two wheels on or over the white line and the bus is going nowhere fast.

I drive buses in Dublin every day and private cars hold me up more than anything. For example, when a bus is pulling out from a bus stop, the driver/passengers shouldn't have to wait for car drivers to give them 'permission' to continue their journey. Make it mandatory for cars to give way to buses at all times.

I'd even make it mandatory for buses to have right-of-way on roundabouts. As you say, they don't accelerate very quickly (the newer ones are particularly slow), which makes certain roundabouts almost impossible to navigate. If I was to follow the rules and wait until it's clear to enter a busy roundabout, I could easily be there for five or ten minutes, maybe even longer, with a string of traffic behind me. So there are times when all I can do is open the cab window, put my hand up and make eye-contact, in the (usually vain) hope that the driver I'm about to pull out in front of will have a bit of decency and won't do the unnecessarily dramatic 'accelerate, slam on the brakes, blast the horn' nonsense.

I didn't realise the new ones a slower?
Is this the government buying the cheapest buses they can get (Smallest Engines)

I remember the oul lad bought a 1.2 focus years ago, wouldn't pull the knickers off a brazzer.

I get what you are saying about the lanes.
But even now we are making mistakes on on this.
All new main roads being built need to have a wide bus lane on both sides of the road and each bus stop needs to be off the bus lane on an inlay (Not on the kerb at the side of the road).
This is simple sh*t, and the councils are still getting it wrong.

Better Than Christ wrote: »

I'm not keen on the idea of congestion charges. That's just 'selling indulgences' to anyone who can afford it. Invest in more buses and gradually take more and more space and 'rights' away from cars and give more and more priority to pedestrians, cyclists and public transport.

+1

suicide_circus

until the capacity issues on buses are sorted, congestion charges are a cinical cash grab. However, the pill could be sugared if some creative thinking were employed. How about for every €5 you pay in congestion charges, your Leap card is credited by €1?

bigar

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

The thing that holds buses up the most is mostly other buses.

You will find that it is actually cars in the other lane that prevent buses from overtaking a stopped bus.

Second to that are cyclists, the guys that travel/cycle at speed are grand, it's the slow pokes in the bus lane that the buses can't get past

You will find that it is actually cars in the other lane that prevent buses from overtaking a cyclist.

You cannot solve congestion without removing the majority of cars. Get rid of cars and you have plenty of space for pedestrians, cyclists and more public transport.

_Brian

I don’t live in the city or near and only visit a handful of times a year.

It’s a brilliant idea and long over due for Dublin in particular.

Congestion charge for cars, 2/3 rate for hybrids and 1/2 rate for electric (they’re still cars and should be minimised in the city)

Rejig the roads to have more cycle and bus infrastructure.

end of the road

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

I didn't realise the new ones a slower?
Is this the government buying the cheapest buses they can get (Smallest Engines)

from what i understand, there are only a certain amount of manufacturers which cater to manufacturing busses for the uk and irish markets, those manufacturers are manufacturing their buses to be as low cost as possible in terms of operation and fuel consumption, based apparently on feedback from the big UK operators.

Seth Brundle

_Brian wrote: »

Congestion charge for cars, 2/3 rate for hybrids and 1/2 rate for electric (they’re still cars and should be minimised in the city)

No point incentivising certain cars when the objective is to remove as many cars from congested roads as possible.

jam_mac_jam

The city is about to grind to a standstill. Yes some people have no public transport but the majority of it is laziness and the car culture in Ireland. There are people in my work driving from places with train stations because they have free parking. Something has to be done.

The city is being destroyed by cars. We need huge investment in bike infrastructure and public transport. Cities are for people not cars.

MrMusician18

There are different causes of congestion in Dublin depending on the time. For example, evening and weekend congestion is caused entirely by the bonkers amount of taxis within the city.

Getting the bus in last weekend took longer than the commute in the same morning.

AlekSmart

MrMusician18 wrote: »

There are different causes of congestion in Dublin depending on the time. For example, evening and weekend congestion is caused entirely by the bonkers amount of taxis within the city.

Getting the bus in last weekend took longer than the commute in the same morning.

The Elephant in the room....;)