Champions Cup Potential Changes 2022

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

Yea in football every team has a coefficient, and every league also has a coefficient. A teams performance affects their own seedings but also the seedings of other teams from the same league.

Essentially it means if for example the majority of Pro14 teams performed poorly in Europe, Pro14 teams would be seeded lower than equivalent English and French teams. As in, the 3rd place French team could be seeded higher than the 2nd place Pro14 team.

Sit down for this one awec.....

I 100% agree with you on this.

awec

molloyjh wrote: »

Sit down for this one awec.....

I 100% agree with you on this.

ridonkulous

roverjoyce wrote: »

Fix the Pro 14 by having
Division 1 with 8 teams - (Top 4 playoffs) - Bottom 2 relegated
Division 2 with 6 teams - Top 2 promoted

its_phil wrote: »

How do you propose to replace the guaranteed income generated from interpros that are massive money spinners for the province?

Six teams having to play each other 3 times minimum with three less games in a division 2 is horrendous, not a fox.

You could run it like the mitre 10 cup whereby teams from division 1 and 2 still play one another and those games are counted to determine the standings of their respective divisions. It could work but there would be huge pushback from teams worried about the pitfalls of a potential relegation to division 2. Personally I think a promotion/relegation scenario is exactly the type of thing the league needs to garner some outside interest or just interest in general.

prawnsambo

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

The problem with your way is that an upwardly trending English or French team can qualify without previous history in the competition and thus would automatically be in the lowest seeds.

Fwiw UEFA saw the same issue where a team like Southampton, Rennes or Mainz could qualify for European football, but without any recent history they'd be seeded much lower than Linfield or FC Vaduz who qualify every year.

So they came up with a kind of hybrid system to level the seedings.

Yeah. I didn't say it was the best though, just that it was better than the current one. The UEFA system or one like it would be better again.

swiwi_

I've found the Champions Cup a bit boring so far this season. Too much dross and lots of one-sided matches. And seeing teams in the same league playing each other is tedious too: week 1 Leinster vs Treviso = yawn

I'd be all for a system that means each pool has Pro 14 + Top 14 + Gallagher Prem

Probably get more interested once the 1/4s roll around.

declanflynn

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Great way to completely alienate the Welsh teams altogether, there's not a hope in hell any of them would sign up to that considering their disdain for the pro14 as it is.

If you were to take the tables last season, and go purely off points, your top 8 league would consist of Glasgow, Munster, Leinster, Ulster, Connacht and Treviso.

Similar situation with this year where Scarlets would scrape in as the 8th team. There's not a chance any of the unions, be it Wales, Scotland, South Africa or Ireland are going to give up revenue and have teams playing in a lower league than what they currently are.

Teams don't like the concept of relegation. Look at the all the furore over the Premiership with teams trying to ringfence it.

Drop the Welsh teams!
Have a 10 team league would be more competitive without them, 9 home games 9 away games, better structure than the present one,
Think everyone is sick of the welsh

Richie_Rich89

awec wrote: »

I think we need to accept that the Pro14 may be seen as something more than filler to hardcore provincial rugby lovers who enjoy watching glorified A teams tog out most weeks with the odd decent match thrown in.

But to everyone else it is filler.

There is a reason it is stuck on obscure TV channels. There is a reason that these TV operators consistently refuse to release subscriber numbers. There is a reason that stadiums are half empty for pro14 games.

By and large it is struggling for relevancy. It is struggling to win hearts and minds with fans (especially in Wales), and struggling for investment, which is why they embarked on their world tour of adding in some teams that will bring a few quid with them. North Americans next yea? Can't wait.

As a spectator and supporter of rugby (as opposed to say, an IRFU blazer), I believe the Pro14 is pure garbage. It is, by some distance, the worst and least interesting professional rugby league in the world.

As each year goes on I have been attending fewer and fewer games, and watching fewer and fewer on TV, because it's just such a boring procession. Too many rubbish fixtures, too few games with strong teams.

People can suggest that I am the exception here, but I do not believe that I am, and it will be interesting to see what happens the next time TV rights come on the table.

The fact is the European season is too long to play the international players all the time. If you've got maybe 11 international games and potentially 32/33 club/provincial games in a season that's a lot of games. You have to rest your internationals for all but 10-20 provincial games to avoid player burnout. If there are only four feeder teams to the national team rather than the 12 in England then of course pulling these players is going to have a bigger impact. It is what it is.

Provincial fans have it pretty good. All the Irish teams can qualify for Europe, as opposed to only 6 or 7 out of 12 in England, and fans can watch all the Irish teams most weekends on tele if they want to. BT are only covering three Premiership games this weekend I think, which means half the teams won't be covered. Don't really know why you're whingeing tbh.

joseywhales

Last season pro 14 had 5 1/4 finalist, 2 semi and one finalist. So even in a ranking of leagues Munster would probably be ranked ahead of racing(who also individually performed behind Munster I'm the same competition) for example this year.

We can try as much mental gymnastics as we like to promote french and English teams ahead of pro14 teams but there is no fair measure that should have them rank higher on average than pro14 teams.
In fact if we introduce league coefficients it would favour the pro 14.

Dave_The_Sheep

The first-ever Club Rugby World Cup could take place as soon as 2022 with plans to be presented to World Rugby, according to a Midi Olympique report.

Last year, World Rugby vice president Bernard Laporte floated the idea of a Club Rugby World Cup with teams featuring from the TOP 14, Premiership, Super Rugby, PRO14, Top League and Major League Rugby.

In his initial plans, Laporte wanted the tournament to take place annually with the Champions Cup falling away. However, according to the new report the plans have been altered with the competition only taking place every four years.

The new development in the plans for the competition is that the governing body of the Champions Cup, the EPCR, have come on board with the idea and have been mandated to outline the proposal to World Rugby chiefs.

The first edition of the competition is said to be hosted in England with the Champions Cup therefore not taking place in 2022, resuming a year later, to free up space in the calendar for the tournament.

Midi Olympique goes on to note that CVC Capital Partners, who have bought shares in the Six Nations, PRO14 and Premiership, are keen for the ideal to materialise and are also in talks with TOP14 presidents over an investment in the TOP 14.

In Laporte's initial proposal, the Club World Cup involved four pools of five teams, made up of four from the Premiership, the Pro14 and the Top14, six from Super Rugby (which would now be proportioned differently with South Africa's departure from the tournament) and one each from the USA and Japan.

Link here.

F*ck off, Laporte.

thomond2006

Super Rugby eventually failed because it became too unwieldy. This feels unwieldly in the extreme.

StevenToast

This will not happen

Ruggabugga101

Jesus.....another joke shop in the making.

cudsy1

From December, but i heard joe molloy express similar fears on nt yesterday. Thoughts?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/arid-40771053.html

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/116261022#Comment_116261022

According to Stuart Lancaster, it is inevitable and something they are looking forward to.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118905398#Comment_118905398

Irish pundits consistently struggle to get their head around the differences in approach to Europe between Irish teams and everyone else. They cannot understand why it's not seen as the ultimate be-all-and-end-all by all clubs.

AbusesToilets

At this point, I'd rather the HC be held after the domestic seasons completed, as a straight knock-out tournament. 3-4 weeks to wrap everything up, playing in good weather, then off for the summer. Hopefully encourage the French teams to give a ****.

pickarooney

They gave enough of a **** to have both finalists last year.

lawrencesummers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118908102#Comment_118908102

Twice in ten years they haven't had a team in the final.

Clearly they don't rate the competition

Digifriendly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118906628#Comment_118906628

Totally disagree. Fans would miss out badly in there being no pool games and less revenue for clubs.

Return to format pre Covid much better.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118909337#Comment_118909337

Don't think the 6 pool games will be coming back.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118909743#Comment_118909743

The Round of 16 is the one that needs to go.

Teams got to the last 16 having done virtually nothing in the group stages.

The 2 legged setup is a big money spinner , but they could scrap the last 16 and go for 2 legged QF and SF stages which would give them the same number of games from a TV perspective , but it would also mean that clubs would actually have to work to get to that stage instead of now where winning 1 game at home and picking up a few bonus points gets you to the knock-out stages which is nonsense.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118910114#Comment_118910114

I'm not a big fan of the 2 legged approach as I think 2 legs reduces the potential for cup upsets.

The only change I'd make to the current format is reduce the round of 16 to 1 leg. And then do a draw for each knockout round.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118910207#Comment_118910207

I'm not a particular fan either , but the money made from it means that a 2-leg element is here to stay no matter what we all think of it.

I just think the "Round of 16" makes the group stages a piss-take as you barely need to bother to qualify for it.

So my suggestion was one on how to facilitate the money grab that the 2-leg element provides whilst at least making it somewhat of a challenge to get to the Knock-out stages.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118910207#Comment_118910207

Haven't made my mind up yet. Will wait and see how next week goes.

I thought a lot of the games this weekend were good. Connacht Leinster was a really good contest, Ulster similarly were top drawer. Bristol Sale was a messy but entertaining game and I enjoyed watching Leicester who I thought were pretty formidable.

I do think with the number of away wins last week, the results this week could be less competitive but does it make a better experience than predominantly comfortable home wins?

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118910854#Comment_118910854

I think it doesn't affect the dead rubber ties, you're still going to get those.

But take Ulster for example. That result in any other season is a huge upset, Toulouse are a much better team than Ulster but Ulster caught them on the day, and that is the beauty of cup rugby. But in this format, Toulouse get the chance to turn it all around.

For me the 2 leg approach suits the top teams, if they have an off day it's no longer fatal. For the underdog sides, the job of progressing is harder.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118910877#Comment_118910877

So what you're saying is if Ulster win this weekend then new format is best format? (I jest)

I get your point, I think the competition isn't there yet in terms of optimal format. I enjoyed it more back in the 2000's and 2010's but maybe that's equal parts nostalgia and because there was less expectation from the provinces and subsequently more excitement. I'd like to see greater randomisation to the knock out stages but I don't know how to achieve that. Teams seem to run hot and cold from season to season that a good fixture one year is a damp squib the next. Maybe that's just the nature of rugby.

pickarooney

The 'group stages' make absolutely no sense. I'd watch the games to enjoy a bit of rugby buy I have no idea whatsoever what the results mean. Surely it's not a permanent change?

Must just be me who likes the two legged ties. 5 of the 8 are very much in the balance and I'd say the only two that are dead are Clermont and Bordeaux.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118910877#Comment_118910877

Or to put it another way, the dying moments of the Connacht-Leinster game might have had real jeopardy instead of simply been an likely academic exercise in how much of a headstart Leinster will start the home game with.

AbusesToilets

Any multi leg knock out game just ends up with the same dynamic, where the final game becomes the point of maximum drama. It's a naked money generating effort.

crisco10

I think the idea behind the 2 legged ties and farcical group games is that its a more efficient way of weeding out the teams that don't care. Because basically no matter what has happened in the group stages, it's highly likely that the best 8 teams will make the final 8. Which is the nature of top tier sports unfortunately.

A top team will never fail to get out of the groups with the current format, and unless the draw is particularly unkind they will have the opportunity to right the ship over 2 legs in the last 16 and make the QF. This is most obvious in a COVID hit season (e.g. Leinster this year) but totally horse sh!t when things have not been interrupted.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118912533#Comment_118912533

A straight knock out probably would have seen tactics tweaked and the game slowed down more often by whichever team had a decent lead. Would a straight knock out have been played in Connacht or RDS?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118912846#Comment_118912846

Leinster would have been the home team.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118912846#Comment_118912846

Of course things would have changed. But the chances of Connacht beating Leinster over two games is immeasurably lower than over one. Which, if you think the point of knockout competitions is to find the best overall team maybe makes sense, but honestly that is the domain of leagues for me. A knockout comp is and should be a different thing.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118910766#Comment_118910766

The teams that don't care or don't deserve to be in the last 16 get weeded out early. No real loss in losing the dead rubbers in the last round of the group stages.

Of the remaining 16 teams, barely scraping through rewards you with a harder matching the last 16 (in a year without covid walkovers)

And having the home and away last 16 gives the clubs a sell out home game and a credible chance of qualifying for the last 8 regardless of who they were drawn against in the group stages

I think it's a clever way of making every game meaningful

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118913031#Comment_118913031

I'm not really arguing one way or another, I said upthread I'd wait until after this weekend to form an opinion. I was just pointing out that a lot of variables which would come into play for a single fixture make anything which happened at the end of Friday's game irrelevant. I know you're more or less saying the same thing, I don't know whether the aggregate score in a one or two fixture game would be dramatically different but squad depth favours teams like Leinster's obviously.

pickarooney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118912673#Comment_118912673

Well it fails on that score then. Look at Montpellier.

crisco10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118914735#Comment_118914735

Well let's see how they get on in London. :-)

For the record, I preferred the old way.

Ciaran

Montpellier this year could be a template for some French teams. Throw out the kids for the two away group games, get hammered, don't care. You just need to win your two home games, or even one win and a bonus point or two, to qualify for the knockouts. The group stages have been rubbish the last two years, and not just because of Covid disruptions.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118915658#Comment_118915658

That's exactly my problem with the "Round of 16" .

As you say , all it takes is one good home win and maybe a BP on the road and you are through to the knockouts.

The Group stage is mostly irrelevant now.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118916003#Comment_118916003

Only if you're in the top 16 teams in Europe and feel you can guarantee to win your home game and get a LBP away on the road, Maybe, then you can scrape through, but if you finish 12th or lower, you're Likely playing one of the best 4 teams in Europe in the knockouts followed by an away QF

If I was a Coach with ambitions to win in Europe, I'd do everything i could to stay in the top half of the group stages to get as easy as possible last 16 game, and the higher chance of a home QF

You can't really judge the format on the current season given the number of cancelled games that completely distorted the table and allowed some teams to coast in without putting in a performance

Happyhouse22

I think the old format was broken - it was such a wonderful format for so long and when the new one came in I thought it was crazy but on reflection for a number of years the old format had a huge issue with teams giving up if the opening two rounds didn’t go well for them, with only one team guaranteed to qualify from each group I don’t think there was enough incentive to stay competitive.

Is the new for a the answer? I’m not sure - it has been pretty crap so far... but obviously covid disruptions haven’t helped.

8 teams from 12 qualifying seems like too many.. maybe it is now too easy to qualify...

How would feel about more teams in the competition? Say 10 for each country making 30 in total - would make 8 out of 15 getting through instead of 8 out of 12.

Should still mean the vast majority of teams have something to play for going into round 4- but make it a bit more competitive to qualify.

One thing that disspoainted this year was the intensity of the final round as in many cases both teams were already qualified, I feel the media at least failed the emphasise the importance of top 2 seeding and top4 seeding. Home semis and home quarters have the potential to be so important.

Podge_irl

Adding extra **** teams is not going to help anything - particularly given the format of the group stages. Anyone playing the 9th/10th ranked teams suddenly has a big leg up.

Obviously the Covid disruptions make it hard to completely judge fairly, but as things stand I like absolutely nothing about this new format.

stephen_n

Maybe they should make it a straight forward cup draw. With all rounds except the final home and away. 32>16>8>4>2 9 games in total to win it.

pickarooney

I think we were lucky that most of the first legs finished close enough that the second legs are worth watching.

Two legs all the way through could leave an awful lot of pointless second games.

It would maybe end the strategy of throwing your away games and winning your home games though