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Reimbursement receipt (company didn't charge me VAT)
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As a matter of interest, When you quote 66(1) of the VATCA to the Printer, in your opinion, and considering the op has clearly stated he is not VAT registered and is not a business, when the Printer asks you which one of these applies to you, what would you say?
Issue of invoices and other documents.:
66.—(1) An accountable person— (a) who supplies goods or services
(i) to another accountable person,
(ii) to a public body,
(iii) to a person who carries on an exempted activity,
(iv) to a person (other than an individual) in another Member State of the Community in such circumstances that tax is chargeable at any of the rates specified in section 46 (1), or
(v) to a person in another Member State who is liable to pay value-added tax pursuant to the VAT Directive on such supply,
As a matter of interest, he is acting on behalf of his employer, so yes the employer is a accountable person, so the OP is in this suitation.FishOnABike wrote: »If you were willing to pay the printer an additional €11.50 would they give you a receipt for €61.50 (inclusive of €11.50 vat @23% of €50.00)? If they will then give that receipt to the event organiser and claim your €61.50 expenses.
Why should he have to pay VAT again, it is not the OP's fault that the printer didn't account for VAT correctly.Just pay the vat then and get the receipt made out to an accountable/vat registered company then. Problem solved..
He doesn't have to pay vat again, he paid for a service, it is not the OP's fault that the printer didn't account for VAT or done a CASH JOB.
All the OP has to do is report the printer to the Revenue Commissioners and give a copy of the receipt they got and 'CASH JOB'I really don’t know why you keep posting that the op got the prints on behalf of someone else, there is no confirmation in the ops posts that he informed the Printer of this when ordering.
The OP doesn;t have to.
Show me in the Vat acts where the op has to tell the printer that he is getting the prints on behalf of someone else or a vatable individual or organization0 -
Just pay the vat then and get the receipt made out to an accountable/vat registered company then. Problem solved.
I really don’t know why you keep posting that the op got the prints on behalf of someone else, there is no confirmation in the ops posts that he informed the Printer of this when ordering.
He doesn't have to state it's for a business up front in order for the printers to abide by the law. Lots of people buy fuel or goods and then ask for a receipt for expenses claims. They don't have to identify as an agent of a business for the vendor to charge a different price. You keep ignoring that the printer is the body pulling a stunt here.0 -
To both Ants90 and Srameen, a retailer is not required to give a receipt to a consumer. That is the law, if you don’t believe it, google is your friend.
As for acting on behalf of an Accountable person, ie, a vat registered business, then you have to tell the Printer you are a business, not just a consumer. If you don’t, then you are just a guy ordering a couple of prints.0 -
Stevie Damaged Punch wrote: »He doesn't have to state it's for a business up front in order for the printers to abide by the law. Lots of people buy fuel or goods and then ask for a receipt for expenses claims. They don't have to identify as an agent of a business for the vendor to charge a different price. You keep ignoring that the printer is the body pulling a stunt here.
What you don’t seem to realise and accept is, when you buy fuel, though the provider gives you a receipt, you are not actually entitled to it unless you are a vat registered/accountable person buying it on behalf of your business. If you don’t identify yourself as such, you are just a consumer buying fuel and not actually and legally entitled to a receipt.
https://www.ccpc.ie/consumers/shopping/buying-goods/buying-goods/0 -
What you don’t seem to realise and accept is, when you buy fuel, though the provider gives you a receipt, you are not actually entitled to it unless you are a vat registered/accountable person buying it on behalf of your business. If you don’t identify yourself as such, you are just a consumer buying fuel and not actually and legally entitled to a receipt.
https://www.ccpc.ie/consumers/shopping/buying-goods/buying-goods/
What you are leaving out is that the petrol station would charge vat to both customers, not add the vat when a receipt is required.0 -
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If he quoted him as a consumer then the price must include vat.0
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It’s splitting hairs here ... the method of payment nor the person acquiring the services has any bearing on the obligation of the printing company to charge and collect VAT on the transaction.
The printer is doing the age old ‘cash’ trick and not declaring the VAT on this transaction.
The customer was quoted 50 quid for the job and this should include a VAT element.
The OP obviously asked for a receipt so they could claim expenses and this should have included a breakdown of VAT .. there is no such thing as a ‘cash price’ the correct term is revenue fraud.
Mind you I think the employers are being a bit anal not accepting the original receipt .. however if they have had issues with cash receipts previously they might be more careful and want to ensure that they are above board tax wise.
The OPs issue is with the printer .. if the OP lets the printer know that they intend to make quick call to revenue looking for advise on to proceed .. the printer might suddenly come up with a VAT receipt0 -
The OPs issue is with the printer .. if the OP lets the printer know that they intend to make quick call to revenue looking for advise on to proceed .. the printer might suddenly come up with a VAT receipt
The OP's issue is with both his employer and with the printer.
He was asked to perform a task by his employer (getting the leaflets printed) for which he is entiled to be reimbursed expenses. The employer does not appear to have informed him of their strict policy regarding the format of the receipt they required. The employer should accept the cash receipt and pay what they owe the OP.
The printer should not have charged a 'cash price' . All sales include VAT where it is due.
The OP could
(1) advise his employer of the difficulty they have with getting a duplicate receipt from the printers with VAT itimesed separately and the only way they might be able to force it is by using the threat of reporting the printers to revenue for suspected VAT fraud. This will obviously make it difficult for his employer to use this print company again. It's a small business it might affect his employer's relationship with other local print companies.
(2) advise their employer he will claim against them either in the small claims court or district court for the money owed and make sure it gets as much publicity as it can in local media.
(3) I'm sure the lesson is learned, but never pay up front out of your own pocket for something. Insist things are paid for either on account between businesses, using a company card or by a cash advance. Let others know the problems they might face reclaiming expenses after the fact.
It's very short sighted for a business not to pay what it owes. It could cause them far more problems than it's worth.0 -
FishOnABike wrote: »The OP's issue is with both his employer and with the printer.
He was asked to perform a task by his employer (getting the leaflets printed) for which he is entiled to be reimbursed expenses. The employer does not appear to have informed him of their strict policy regarding the format of the receipt they required. The employer should accept the cash receipt and pay what they owe the OP.
The printer should not have charged a 'cash price' . All sales include VAT where it is due.
The OP could
(1) advise his employer of the difficulty they have with getting a duplicate receipt from the printers with VAT itimesed separately and the only way they might be able to force it is by using the threat of reporting the printers to revenue for suspected VAT fraud. This will obviously make it difficult for his employer to use this print company again. It's a small business it might affect his employer's relationship with other local print companies.
(2) advise their employer he will claim against them either in the small claims court or district court for the money owed and make sure it gets as much publicity as it can in local media.
(3) I'm sure the lesson is learned, but never pay up front out of your own pocket for something. Insist things are paid for either on account between businesses, using a company card or by a cash advance. Let others know the problems they might face reclaiming expenses after the fact.
It's very short sighted for a business not to pay what it owes. It could cause them far more problems than it's worth.
I’ve no idea what the OP’s company’s finance package is like - but if it is a proper expenses application that ties in to the finance package it might not be able to accept a receipt without vat on it .. and the finance assistant might not be able to process it. Making a wholesale comment like get cash up front or business account etc is nonsense - I know my business wouldn’t be able to work with out staff claiming expenses for loads of things - life isn’t perfect neither is business ... but the crux of this problem is a business doing a tax dodge - not the OP or the OP’s employers0 -
I’ve no idea what the OP’s company’s finance package is like - but if it is a proper expenses application that ties in to the finance package it might not be able to accept a receipt without vat on it .. and the finance assistant might not be able to process it. Making a wholesale comment like get cash up front or business account etc is nonsense - I know my business wouldn’t be able to work with out staff claiming expenses for loads of things - life isn’t perfect neither is business ... but the crux of this problem is a business doing a tax dodge - not the OP or the OP’s employers
It should be simple for the employer to reimburse him the €50 and enter it as €40.65 + €9.35 VAT in their accounts package.
I know most business wouldn’t be able to work with out staff claiming expenses for loads of things - life isn’t perfect neither is business ... his employer should act according and reimburse his expenses.0 -
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FishOnABike wrote: »It should be simple for the employer to reimburse him the €50 and enter it as €40.65 + €9.35 VAT in their accounts package.
I know most business wouldn’t be able to work with out staff claiming expenses for loads of things - life isn’t perfect neither is business ... his employer should act according and reimburse his expenses.
Totally agree, and even if they couldn’t, surely they would have petty cash, €50 is hardly going to break them.
Be interested to know the ops relationship to the Event company, is he an employee who picked up something on behalf of them, or is it a casual arrangement where the op is a student who they just contact when they have an event in his college. Given that they wanted the op to pay out of his own pocket, I suspect it’s the latter.0 -
To both Ants90 and Srameen, a retailer is not required to give a receipt to a consumer. That is the law, if you don’t believe it, google is your friend.
As for acting on behalf of an Accountable person, ie, a vat registered business, then you have to tell the Printer you are a business, not just a consumer. If you don’t, then you are just a guy ordering a couple of prints.True, I don’t think that is being disputed by anyone, but that still doesn’t obligate the business to give the op a vat receipt, nor any receipt for that matter. I wonder why the Printer gave the cash price quote, I doubt that would be typical, unless it was discussed with the op when ordering.FishOnABike wrote: »It should be simple for the employer to reimburse him the €50 and enter it as €40.65 + €9.35 VAT in their accounts package.
I know most business wouldn’t be able to work with out staff claiming expenses for loads of things - life isn’t perfect neither is business ... his employer should act according and reimburse his expenses.As a matter of interest, When you quote 66(1) of the VATCA to the Printer, in your opinion, and considering the op has clearly stated he is not VAT registered and is not a business, when the Printer asks you which one of these applies to you, what would you say?
Issue of invoices and other documents.:
66.—(1) An accountable person— (a) who supplies goods or services
(i)
(ii) to a public body,
(iii) to a person who carries on an exempted activity,
(iv) to a person (other than an individual) in another Member State of the Community in such circumstances that tax is chargeable at any of the rates specified in section 46 (1), or
(v) to a person in another Member State who is liable to pay value-added tax pursuant to the VAT Directive on such supply,
The OP is an accountable person in relation to VAT Legislation.To both Ants90 and Srameen, a retailer is not required to give a receipt to a consumer. That is the law, if you don’t believe it, google is your friend.
As for acting on behalf of an Accountable person, ie, a vat registered business, then you have to tell the Printer you are a business, not just a consumer. If you don’t, then you are just a guy ordering a couple of prints.
The printer is obliged to issued a VAT receipt/invoice as they are supplying a vatable activity to a accountable person, yes the OP is a accountable person in the context of VATTrue, I don’t think that is being disputed by anyone, but that still doesn’t obligate the business to give the op a vat receipt, nor any receipt for that matter. I wonder why the Printer gave the cash price quote, I doubt that would be typical, unless it was discussed with the op when ordering.FishOnABike wrote: »It should be simple for the employer to reimburse him the €50 and enter it as €40.65 + €9.35 VAT in their accounts package.
That is VAT FRAUD what you are suggestingTotally agree, and even if they couldn’t, surely they would have petty cash, €50 is hardly going to break them.
Be interested to know the ops relationship to the Event company, is he an employee who picked up something on behalf of them, or is it a casual arrangement where the op is a student who they just contact when they have an event in his college. Given that they wanted the op to pay out of his own pocket, I suspect it’s the latter.
The employer or event company can't do that as that is put quite simply VAT FRAUD.
The OP's relationship with the Event Company is irrelavant, doesn't matter if he/she is a employee or has some casual arrangement etc
What is relevant is that the Printing company is obliged under VAT Legislation to issued a vat reciept/invoice to the OP0 -
The OP is an accountable person in relation to VAT Legislation.
The OP's relationship with the Event Company is irrelavant, doesn't matter if he/she is a employee or has some casual arrangement etc
For clarity.
According to Revenue:
What is an accountable person?
A person who is required to charge VAT in the State is referred to as an accountable person.
An accountable person is a taxable person (for example, an individual, partnership, company) who:
• supplies taxable goods or services in the State
AND
• who is, or is required to be, registered for VAT.
The op has confirmed that he is not a business, and is not VAT registered, so therefore the op is not required to charge VAT, ergo, is not an accountable person under VAT legislation.
And again, under the very part of the VATCA you yourself referenced, he is not entitled to a receipt unless he is one of the entities listed in 66(1). You are now arguing against the legislation you quoted, which clearly lays out who is entitled to it..0 -
FishOnABike wrote: »It should be simple for the employer to reimburse him the €50 and enter it as €40.65 + €9.35 VAT in their accounts package.
I know most business wouldn’t be able to work with out staff claiming expenses for loads of things - life isn’t perfect neither is business ... his employer should act according and reimburse his expenses.Totally agree, and even if they couldn’t, surely they would have petty cash, €50 is hardly going to break them.
Be interested to know the ops relationship to the Event company, is he an employee who picked up something on behalf of them, or is it a casual arrangement where the op is a student who they just contact when they have an event in his college. Given that they wanted the op to pay out of his own pocket, I suspect it’s the latter.
Are you promoting VAT FRAUD or do you think that this is legal and disagree that this is VAT FRAUDFor clarity.
According to Revenue:
What is an accountable person?
A person who is required to charge VAT in the State is referred to as an accountable person.
An accountable person is a taxable person (for example, an individual, partnership, company) who:
• supplies taxable goods or services in the State
AND
• who is, or is required to be, registered for VAT.
The op has confirmed that he is not a business, and is not VAT registered, so therefore the op is not required to charge VAT, ergo, is not an accountable person under VAT legislation.
And again, under the very part of the VATCA you yourself referenced, he is not entitled to a receipt unless he is one of the entities listed in 66(1). You are now arguing against the legislation you quoted, which clearly lays out who is entitled to it..
Great we have somebody that read 1 section of VATCA's and think that they are an expert in VAT :rolleyes:.
1 - Is the OP a Accountable Person under VAT Legislation
2 - Is the OP a Taxable Person under VAT Legislation
3 - Is the OP's Work an Accountable or Taxable organization under VAT Legislation
4 - If the OP's work is an accountable or taxable organization under VAT Legislation, then as an employee or is the OP stepping into the shoes of that organization under VAT Legislation0 -
Great we have somebody that read 1 section of VATCA's and think that they are an expert in VAT :rolleyes:.
1 - Is the OP a Accountable Person under VAT Legislation
2 - Is the OP a Taxable Person under VAT Legislation
3 - Is the OP's Work an Accountable or Taxable organization under VAT Legislation
4 - If the OP's work is an accountable or taxable organization under VAT Legislation, then as an employee or is the OP stepping into the shoes of that organization under VAT Legislation
1. No. Op not vat registered.
2. If the op pays tax on income, then he is taxable, but not accountable underr Vat legislation, see the explanation from Revenue above. Only accountable persons are entitled to a receipt, op is not vat registered. The op may pay tax on income if it reaches the threshold, but as he is not vat registered, he cannot charge vat for his services.
3. Yes if they require a VAT receipt from the op.
4. In your previous post you said the ops relationship to his employer is “irrelevant”, now you are saying it is relevant, which is it?
Stop digging, the legislation you advised the op to use literally answers the questions you asked above.0 -
1. No.
2. No under Vat legislation, see the explanation from Revenue above. Only accountable persons are entitled to a receipt, op is not vat registered. The op may pay tax on income if it reaches the threshold, but as he is not vat registered, he cannot charge vat for his services.
3. Yes if they require a VAT receipt from the op.
4. In your previous post you said the ops relationship to his employer is “irrelevant”, now you are saying it is relevant, which is it?
Stop digging.
https://www.revenue.ie/en/vat/reclaiming-vat/who-can-reclaim-vat.aspx
You cannot reclaim VAT on the following costs even if you are registered for VAT and make only taxable supplies:- food, drink or other personal services for yourself, your agents or employees. The exception being to the extent that they are part of a taxable supply of services
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As i said previously its amazing people who read 1 section of VATCA and think they are experts in VAT/Taxation.
There is over 5k pages in VAT Acts
They cover not just Accountable Persons, Persons not Accountable, treatment of personas not accountable, Supply of Services, Issue of Invoices and other Documents, etc
Not to mention Taxes and Duties Manuals issued by the Revenue Commissioners and they one of them deal with employee expenses
When you read the VATCA's then maybe we can have a meaningful discussion
It's amazing also that you didn't answer my first question - are you promoting VAT FRAUD0 -
Oh God, save me.
The reason you can’t reclaim vat on those items even if you are vat registered is that they are personal expenses and you can’t claim them as part of your business. I have a VAT registered business, I cannot claim my lunch, glass of wine etc at lunchtime, that would be personal services. But if those items are part of my business, I can.
That applies to what accountable/vat registered persons can and can’t claim, but the op is not vat registered.
If the op is not vat registered, the VATCA does not apply, he is just a consumer. The VATCA only applies to vat registered/accountable persons.
That iis why I asked about relationship with the Event management company, which you said is irrelevant.
The op said in there opening post
'I was asked to print 160 a4 sheets for an event'
Which is applicable, as vat can be claimed by the event company on those
what part do you not understand
Well maybe since you didn;t study taxation and pratice it everyday then you don't know the in's and out of what your are talking about
What part of
You cannot reclaim VAT on the following costs even if you are registered for VAT and make only taxable supplies:- food, drink or other personal services for yourself, your agents or employees. The exception being to the extent that they are part of a taxable supply of services
The OP was asked by the events company 'to print 160 a4 sheets for an event' which is a taxable event
So the events company can claim vat on that
The printing company should issue a taxable invoice/receipt to the OP so that the events company can reclaim the vat portion in there vat return0 -
The op said in there opening post
'I was asked to print 160 a4 sheets for an event'
Which is applicable, as vat can be claimed by the event company on those
what part do you not understand
Well maybe since you didn;t study taxation and pratice it everyday then you don't know the in's and out of what your are talking about
What part of
You cannot reclaim VAT on the following costs even if you are registered for VAT and make only taxable supplies:- food, drink or other personal services for yourself, your agents or employees. The exception being to the extent that they are part of a taxable supply of services
Seriously man, you are all over the place here dav010 is correct and explained it clearly and simply. You are jumping all around and confusing non claimable items which have NOTHING to do with the situation described. The service here is printing NOT food or petrol.0 -
Earlier you posted that the ops relationship to the Event Manager is irrelevant.
This is why I asked what the ops relationship is. If the op ordered a he prints in a personal capacity and did not give the EMs details for invoice, then the printer has no reason to give a receipt.
I posted earlier, I don’t condone fraud.
Stop digging.
It is irrelevant the OP's position or relationship is
It doesn't matter if the OP is an employee, sub-contractor, director, volunteer etc as the printing of 160 a4 sheets was for the events company
Take it this way.
Somebody that is self employed or a company that is below the vat threshold or vat exempt activity, are they not also entitled to a receipt, or invoice ? as if not then how would they be able to prove the expenses that was paid by cash etc
Petrol you are not allowed to claim vat back on, but diesel you are
But in petrol stations you can get a vat receipt on pertol :rolleyes:
Taxi drives are vat exempt but most taxi drivers have diesel cars, and when they buy diesel they get receipts from the petrol stations which show the vat portion on it, but they can't claim it, as they are vat exempt
VAT is complex and i don't expect everyone to have a understanding of it
But to read one paragraph, of vat legislation and then think they know what they are talking about, but don't read other parts that is more relevant or equally relevant to the area, or the revenue taxes and duties manual's in relation to VAT or printing or employee expeness0 -
Seriously man, you are all over the place here dav010 is correct and explained it clearly and simply. You are jumping all around and confusing non claimable items which have NOTHING to do with the situation described. The service here is printing NOT food or petrol.
Read the paragraph again
You cannot reclaim VAT on the following costs even if you are registered for VAT and make only taxable supplies:- food, drink or other personal services for yourself, your agents or employees. The exception being to the extent that they are part of a taxable supply of services
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Read the paragraph again
You cannot reclaim VAT on the following costs even if you are registered for VAT and make only taxable supplies:- food, drink or other personal services for yourself, your agents or employees. The exception being to the extent that they are part of a taxable supply of services
Oh dear God0 -
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Ok, now I think I have fallen for into a trolls trap.
But just in case you really are genuinely posting, it doesn’t matter if you don’t reach the vat threshold or are exempt from VAT, you must still be VAT registered to be an accountable person and the VATCA to apply to the goods/services you sell/buy.
And from the start, the point I made, and asked of the op, did he inform the printers the prints were for the EM, and the relationship does matter, if the op is not an employee, how can you then claim they were for your employer?
He doesn't have to inform the printers end of discussion
As for troll - you can report me if you think i'm0 -
Your lousy company should still reimburse you. Not every business is vat registered so you shouldn't be out of pocket.0
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If the company aren't paying you the 50quid, take back the printed material and tell them to get it themselves.
Next time a company you work for asks for you to pay for something ask for petty cash to do so. No petty cash no buying.0
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