Creche bailout

jmreire

ChikiChiki wrote: »

Getting a 192 Kia Sorrento on PCP and having debt is one such example.

In this day and age, very few People ( let alone Family's) can manage without a car, so it's essential for most people, and not a luxury. So you need a car, and if PCP works for you,,rather than borrowing €30/40'000 for 192 car, which will start to depreciate once the Reg plate is put on it, and every year there after..in 3 year's as a rule of thumb..will lose 50%, and each 3 year term after wards another 50% and so on.....With PCP, no worry's about expensive repair bill's, every 2 / 3 years, a new car , or hand it back. So yes PCP suit's quite a lot of people.
Now after car's, what's next on the list " Keeping up with the Joneses " essential's?

Maewyn Succat

Fanny **** wrote: »

Did you see the percentage I quoted? Do you understand how much it applies approximately?

If thats the difference between closing and remaining open I repeat the business wasn't sustainable in the first place

They were sustainable enough to remain open.

One eyed Jack

Maewyn Succat wrote: »

I'd say you're out of touch with reality if you think the average income for a single income family with young children is €865 per week.

I didn’t say the average income for a single income family with young children was €865 per week. You asked me did I think it was possible for every family in Ireland with young children to sustain a basic lifestyle on a single wage, and going by those figures from the Central Statistic Office, which are based upon reality, I said yes, it is possible, and I presented evidence to that effect. All you’ve presented so far to support your opinion is your own personal circumstances.

Fanny Wank

Maewyn Succat wrote: »

They were sustainable enough to remain open.

What the hell are you on about?


I repeat, look at the figures I quoted and have a guess at the insurance cost per child, per YEAR please

In any case I'm sure if crèches needed to "hike" their fees to cover it I could sacrifice half a pack of chewing gum a week to pay it

There's another clue about how much the gouging cartel is charging

griffin100

My wife owns a Creche so I’ve some first hand knowledge of this. I also manage insurance and claims for a very large organisation so have an understanding of insurance as well.

For years we paid very little for insurance, average €1500 for a Creche with 60i kids That is not a sustainable premium.

From what I heard on the radio yesterday there are approx 4000 child care facilities. If each was paying €2k fior insurance then that’d be a combined premium of €8m. If a typical case costs €60k to settle, then it would only take 133 cases to use up the premium, that’s one claim per 30 Creche’s.

Now we’re paying €3500. Given the willingness of some parents to sue for the slightest accident and the fact that kids have until they’re 20 years old to sue you I still think that’s cheap (2 year statute of limitations doesn’t begin until the child turns 18).

We pay more for council rates than we do for insurance, at least we get something tangible for an insurance premium.

The issue is not the cost of insurance, it’s the lack of competition that in the longer term is going to lead to much higher premiums. A lot of what was spouted yesterday was rubbish, there are much greater risks to the viability of Creche’s than insurance (the principal one being Catherine Zapone).

moceri

When FG makes political appointees to the Judiciary like Kevin Cross, who is infamous for the size of his compensation awards, then this problem will continue.

jmreire

griffin100 wrote: »

My wife owns a Creche so I’ve some first hand knowledge of this. I also manage insurance and claims for a very large organisation so have an understanding of insurance as well.

For years we paid very little for insurance, average €1500 for a Creche with 60i kids That is not a sustainable premium.

From what I heard on the radio yesterday there are approx 4000 child care facilities. If each was paying €2k fior insurance then that’d be a combined premium of €8m. If a typical case costs €60k to settle, then it would only take 133 cases to use up the premium, that’s one claim per 30 Creche’s.

Now we’re paying €3500. Given the willingness of some parents to sue for the slightest accident and the fact that kids have until they’re 20 years old to sue you I still think that’s cheap (2 year statute of limitations doesn’t begin until the child turns 18).

We pay more for council rates than we do for insurance, at least we get something tangible for an insurance premium.

The issue is not the cost of insurance, it’s the lack of competition that in the longer term is going to lead to much higher premiums. A lot of what was spouted yesterday was rubbish, there are much greater risks to the viability of Creche’s than insurance (the principal one being Catherine Zapone).

When it is explained like that, it makes a lot of sense. None the less action will have to be taken , change the law ect, to reduce the Nr of claims for what is essentially kid's normal growing up bumps and sprains' . I'm not excusing claims as a result of negligence where real injury's are sustained.

Fann Linn

Insurance company gets €7,000,000 from Govt.
Just increase premium again next year to get similar result.

Maewyn Succat

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I didn’t say the average income for a single income family with young children was €865 per week. You asked me did I think it was possible for every family in Ireland with young children to sustain a basic lifestyle on a single wage, and going by those figures from the Central Statistic Office, which are based upon reality, I said yes, it is possible, and I presented evidence to that effect. All you’ve presented so far to support your opinion is your own personal circumstances.

You might want to learn the difference between mean and average.
Have a read of this:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thejournal.ie/readme/opinion-64-of-workers-in-ireland-earn-less-than-the-average-salary-4562071-Apr2019/%3famp=1

wonski

Are the 700 and 2000 premium quoted in the article per year?

If that's the case I don't see that is that bad.

Pay more for car insurance, and many others do.

If that's per month then yeah, that's expensive.

Dravokivich

F*ck me. We have an arguement over why creches should exist in the first place. Sport clubs are being threatened with these very same issues too. The problem is with the unavailability of mandatory insurance to provide a public service, prevents a service provider from continuing a service. If the creche my son goes to closes down, I'm also out of a job, becuase I cant work without him spending the afternoon somewhere after school. If my local supermarket cant get cover I've to go further to get groceries. And that's not withstanding the lose of jobs and the reduced spending power as a result.

Fann Linn

Dravokivich wrote: »

F*ck me. We have an arguement over why creches should exist in the first place. Sport clubs are being threatened with these very same issues too. The problem is with the unavailability of mandatory insurance to provide a service, prevents a service provider from continuing a service. If the creche my son goes to closes down, I'm also out of a job, becuase I cant work without him spending the afternoon somewhere after school.

Every business is being threatened with increased premiums.

Dravokivich

Fann Linn wrote: »

Every business is being threatened with increased premiums.

Yeah... that's the point I was getting at.

One eyed Jack

Maewyn Succat wrote: »

You might want to learn the difference between mean and average.
Have a read of this:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thejournal.ie/readme/opinion-64-of-workers-in-ireland-earn-less-than-the-average-salary-4562071-Apr2019/%3famp=1

You’re not even addressing your own question now. I know well the difference between mean and average, and you didn’t ask about the mean. You asked did I think it was possible for every family in Ireland with young children to sustain a basic lifestyle on a single wage. I said it is, and there are plenty of households who do already support their families on a single wage by maintaining a basic lifestyle. Then there are those people who want more than a basic lifestyle for their families, but can’t sustain it as their household income is below their aspirations - more going out than they have coming in. It’s as basic as that. It appears that for most families, the bulk of their household income isn’t going on crèche fees, but on housing and accommodation.

ted1

Millionaire only not wrote: »

What do people think of the crèche bailout on insurance ?
I just see hotels have just jumped on the bandwagon claiming same problem !
Have they opened a can of worms for themselves they will not be able to close ?

https://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/irish-news/fears-hospitality-sector-will-be-latest-to-hit-huge-trouble-as-leading-insurers-exit-market-38798859.html

Zappone is an Idiot. Simple as that.

Before handing out our money she didn’t have a chance to do a simple profit cheque to see what kind of a insurance cost a crèche could absorb.

ted1

griffin100 wrote: »

My wife owns a Creche so I’ve some first hand knowledge of this. I also manage insurance and claims for a very large organisation so have an understanding of insurance as well.

For years we paid very little for insurance, average €1500 for a Creche with 60i kids That is not a sustainable premium.

From what I heard on the radio yesterday there are approx 4000 child care facilities. If each was paying €2k fior insurance then that’d be a combined premium of €8m. If a typical case costs €60k to settle, then it would only take 133 cases to use up the premium, that’s one claim per 30 Creche’s.

Now we’re paying €3500. Given the willingness of some parents to sue for the slightest accident and the fact that kids have until they’re 20 years old to sue you I still think that’s cheap (2 year statute of limitations doesn’t begin until the child turns 18).

We pay more for council rates than we do for insurance, at least we get something tangible for an insurance premium.

The issue is not the cost of insurance, it’s the lack of competition that in the longer term is going to lead to much higher premiums. A lot of what was spouted yesterday was rubbish, there are much greater risks to the viability of Creche’s than insurance (the principal one being Catherine Zapone).

So like when fuel prices were high Aer lines charged a fuel premium , you simply charge your fees and add on €50 euro insurance surcharge. That’s only a euro a week.

Maewyn Succat

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You’re not even addressing your own question now. I know well the difference between mean and average, and you didn’t ask about the mean. You asked did I think it was possible for every family in Ireland with young children to sustain a basic lifestyle on a single wage. I said it is, and there are plenty of households who do already support their families on a single wage by maintaining a basic lifestyle. Then there are those people who want more than a basic lifestyle for their families, but can’t sustain it as their household income is below their aspirations - more going out than they have coming in. It’s as basic as that. It appears that for most families, the bulk of their household income isn’t going on crèche fees, but on housing and accommodation.

And what exactly is a family with young children supposed to do if they can't afford either their mortgage or rent on one income?

One eyed Jack

Maewyn Succat wrote: »

And what exactly is a family with young children supposed to do if they can't afford either their mortgage or rent on one income?

Think outside the box of course.

Maewyn Succat

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Think outside the box of course.

That's a really constructive and well thought out solution you have come up with there.
This is going nowhere so I'm going to stop it here as it's way off topic. You seem to be under some deluded impression that every family with young children is living beyond their means and that there is no need for creches.

One eyed Jack

Maewyn Succat wrote: »

That's a really constructive and well thought out solution you have come up with there.
This is going nowhere so I'm going to stop it here as it's way off topic. You seem to be under some deluded impression that every family with young children is living beyond their means and that there is no need for creches.

I didn’t think you were expecting a comprehensive answer to what could only be described as yet another open ended question, the circumstances of which people in Ireland are faced with on a daily basis, and they come up with solutions that are specific to their particular circumstances. Can I possibly be expected to account for every single possibility in someone else’s circumstances? No, I cannot, but I didn’t want to be rude about it.

At no point to the best of my knowledge could I have given you the impression that every family with young children are living beyond their means, I don’t think they are. It was you who asked whether I thought it was possible for every family with young children to sustain a basic lifestyle on a single wage, and I demonstrated that it was.

I don’t imagine every family with young children is spending a large proportion of their household income on childcare services, in fact the vast majority of families aren’t. I would suggest it’s only a very small minority of people are choosing to spend a large proportion of their household income on childcare services, and an even smaller minority again are spending money that they simply don’t have on childcare services, and are subsidised by the State, and still that’s not enough, because the providers of childcare services are complaining that they aren’t able to afford to sustain themselves, and so they too need to be subsidised by the State... and all this State subsidisation and propping up the existence of what is a loss incurring industry where people are paying enormous fees is beneficial to the economy how now exactly?

If you can figure out an answer to that one I’m all ears.

Triangle

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

People have been screwed by their health and car insurance policies for years under this government (as the recent report has shown). Now its small-medium business that's affected and because they're somewhat more vocal and organised, FG belatedly react - but rather than tackle the underlying problem (the free hand they've allowed), they try to fudge by throwing cash at it - which may play well in some sections prior to an election, but ultimately will only be absorbed and make the situation worse.

Rinse and repeat. Vote FG! :rolleyes:

The report is comparing insurance costs now against a time when they were too low. So low that two insurance companies went bust and additional government levies were introduced to fund the ICCL.
Yes, the insurance industry needs to be more transparent, but the cost of PI claims is what's making these companies leave Ireland. The ones leaving the market are not insuring property, it's personal injury.

Fanny Wank

Triangle wrote: »

The report is comparing insurance costs now against a time when they were too low. So low that two insurance companies went bust and additional government levies were introduced to fund the ICCL.
Yes, the insurance industry needs to be more transparent, but the cost of PI claims is what's making these companies leave Ireland. The ones leaving the market are not insuring property, it's personal injury.

The report also shows insurers made significant losses over the 10 year period analysed.

However nobody actually responds when anyone posts sensible analysis without waving a pitch fork. Not sure why I keep wasting my time trying to engage

beauf

Triangle wrote: »

The report is comparing insurance costs now against a time when they were too low. So low that two insurance companies went bust and additional government levies were introduced to fund the ICCL.
Yes, the insurance industry needs to be more transparent, but the cost of PI claims is what's making these companies leave Ireland. The ones leaving the market are not insuring property, it's personal injury.

Insurance composites stopped fighting cases to save money. Created an avalanche of claims and payouts. Legal system took full advantage.

This did not happen overnight. It's been going on for many decades with many different govt in charge.

Maewyn Succat

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I didn’t think you were expecting a comprehensive answer to what could only be described as yet another open ended question, the circumstances of which people in Ireland are faced with on a daily basis, and they come up with solutions that are specific to their particular circumstances. Can I possibly be expected to account for every single possibility in someone else’s circumstances? No, I cannot, but I didn’t want to be rude about it.

At no point to the best of my knowledge could I have given you the impression that every family with young children are living beyond their means, I don’t think they are. It was you who asked whether I thought it was possible for every family with young children to sustain a basic lifestyle on a single wage, and I demonstrated that it was.

I don’t imagine every family with young children is spending a large proportion of their household income on childcare services, in fact the vast majority of families aren’t. I would suggest it’s only a very small minority of people are choosing to spend a large proportion of their household income on childcare services, and an even smaller minority again are spending money that they simply don’t have on childcare services, and are subsidised by the State, and still that’s not enough, because the providers of childcare services are complaining that they aren’t able to afford to sustain themselves, and so they too need to be subsidised by the State... and all this State subsidisation and propping up the existence of what is a loss incurring industry where people are paying enormous fees is beneficial to the economy how now exactly?

If you can figure out an answer to that one I’m all ears.

Forgive me but I'm not really following your train of thought. We don't seem to be in the same book let alone on the same page. Are you suggesting that all childcare subsidies should be abolished?

beauf

Maewyn Succat wrote: »

And what exactly is a family with young children supposed to do if they can't afford either their mortgage or rent on one income?

You have to move to where it is affordable.

We have reached a point where a lot more people will have a worse standard of living than their parents. People are being priced out of their own areas.

beauf

Maewyn Succat wrote: »

Forgive me but I'm not really following your train of thought. We don't seem to be in the same book let alone on the same page. Are you suggesting that all childcare subsidies should be abolished?

He saying it's propping up an unsustainable economic model, way of life

Maewyn Succat

beauf wrote: »

You have to move to where it is affordable.

Not everyone has that choice

beauf

How do people feel where one person quit their job stalled their career, perhaps life changingly. Cut quality of life for a decade or more to balance the books. Where are their grants....

beauf

Maewyn Succat wrote: »

Not everyone has that choice

It's not a choice.

Maewyn Succat

beauf wrote: »

He saying it's propping up an unsustainable economic model, way of life

That's for a separate thread. As another poster said..he's a 1950's man. It would be very difficult to change the economic model which the modern world has created.