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Creche bailout

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    #122
    tabby aspreme
    Registered Users Posts: 3,996 ✭✭✭tabby aspreme


    Surprise surprise, It seems this scheme was put in place with no planning, as to how it is, to be administered. Childcare providers are been offered as little as €7 / child, up to €60 / child


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    #123
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,365 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    tabby aspreme wrote: »
    Surprise surprise, It seems this scheme was put in place with no planning, as to how it is, to be administered. Childcare providers are been offered as little as €7 / child, up to €60 / child

    It’s Catherine Zappone nothing is planned, she is worse than uselesss.


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    #124
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Maewyn Succat wrote: »
    That's for a separate thread. As another poster said..he's a 1950's man. It would be very difficult to change the economic model which the modern world has created.

    We've copied the economic polices of other countries and got the same result. Not all countries did the same thing though. So it's a fallacy to suggest this was unavoidable.

    People seem to want to ignore the lessons from history on this.


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    #125
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Can someone explain what the money given to crèches is for? I haven’t followed the news about it.

    Just saw a crèche owner on my Facebook feed say they received a cheque this morning for 175 euro. Says she may strike in the new year.


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    #126
    FishOnABike
    Registered Users Posts: 4,488 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    I didn’t say the average income for a single income family with young children was €865 per week. You asked me did I think it was possible for every family in Ireland with young children to sustain a basic lifestyle on a single wage, and going by those figures from the Central Statistic Office, which are based upon reality, I said yes, it is possible, and I presented evidence to that effect. All you’ve presented so far to support your opinion is your own personal circumstances.
    However, you didn't account for tax in the €45k average income. The family would need an after tax income of €45k to just about afford the average family spend.

    They would need to earn in or around €65k before tax to be able to afford the average family spend. €65k is more than one person on the average wage.


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    #127
    Maewyn Succat
    Registered Users Posts: 506 ✭✭✭Maewyn Succat


    beauf wrote: »
    We've copied the economic polices of other countries and got the same result. Not all countries did the same thing though. So it's a fallacy to suggest this was unavoidable.

    People seem to want to ignore the lessons from history on this.

    I know this is dragging the thread off topic but what country's policies do you suggest we follow to fix the problem?


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    #128
    Fann Linn
    Registered Users Posts: 7,800 ✭✭✭Fann Linn


    Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »
    Can someone explain what the money given to crèches is for? I haven’t followed the news about it.

    Just saw a crèche owner on my Facebook feed say they received a cheque this morning for 175 euro. Says she may strike in the new year.

    Well Paschal was on Morning Ireland and NT Breakfast earlier and the spin is this €7,000,000 sop to the Insurance industry isn't that at all.

    This €7,000,000 is just stage three of Zappones plan for childcare in Ireland.

    It is however up to each individual creche how they spend it according to the Minister for Finance, and despite every other business having similar problems with insurance, 'it is not the role of Govt to subsidise private business.

    You just gotta love FG.


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    #129
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,944 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Maewyn Succat wrote: »
    That's for a separate thread. As another poster said..he's a 1950's man. It would be very difficult to change the economic model which the modern world has created.


    It’s not for a separate thread at all. It’s the very basis of this thread - crèches looking for yet another Government top-up to maintain their unsustainable business model where they are offering their sub-standard services to parents who are receiving subsidised childcare provided by women on less than the minimum wage (they don’t qualify for the minimum wage as they are mostly working only part-time hours), and you’re saying that this is an economic model the world has created? No it isn’t, it’s a uniquely Irish solution to a particularly Irish problem, and if some people are to be believed - nobody is benefiting from the Government continuing to throw money at the issue like it’s 1995 and the heady days of the Celtic Tiger all over again.

    I don’t get the reference to the 1950’s tbh, you had people who were just as concerned with what people thought of them then too as we do today, and they too claimed that it would be difficult to change the economic mess they found themselves in. Here’s a very simple solution to the issue of expecting the State to bail you out of your mess - stop it.


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    #130
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    ....
    I don’t get the reference to the 1950’s tbh, you had people who were just as concerned with what people thought of them then too as we do today, and they too claimed that it would be difficult to change the economic mess they found themselves in....

    Sounds like they don't know much about the 50's.
    In eras of economic crisis, the Irish have left in their millions for new lives overseas. In the twentieth century mass emigration reached levels during the 1940s and 1950s that were reminiscent of the 1850s, in the aftermath of the Great Irish Famine. Again the 1980s were another “lost” decade characterised by emigration and unemployment

    https://www.irishtimes.com/blogs/generationemigration/2011/11/02/traditions-of-emigration-the-irish-habit-of-going-away/

    That seems to have been replaced by bailout fever. No idea which is better. But it is different.


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    #131
    Maewyn Succat
    Registered Users Posts: 506 ✭✭✭Maewyn Succat


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    It’s not for a separate thread at all. It’s the very basis of this thread - crèches looking for yet another Government top-up to maintain their unsustainable business model where they are offering their sub-standard services to parents who are receiving subsidised childcare provided by women on less than the minimum wage (they don’t qualify for the minimum wage as they are mostly working only part-time hours), and you’re saying that this is an economic model the world has created? No it isn’t, it’s a uniquely Irish solution to a particularly Irish problem, and if some people are to be believed - nobody is benefiting from the Government continuing to throw money at the issue like it’s 1995 and the heady days of the Celtic Tiger all over again.

    So what exactly do you suggest the government does? Do you think all subsidies for childcare and creches should be abolished?
    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    I don’t get the reference to the 1950’s.

    It's to do with your outdated way of thinking
    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    tbh, you had people who were just as concerned with what people thought of them then too as we do today, and they too claimed that it would be difficult to change the economic mess they found themselves in. Here’s a very simple solution to the issue of expecting the State to bail you out of your mess - stop it.

    What mess am I in and what do I stop?


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    #132
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ya9onCut4z4


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    #133
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,365 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    It’s not for a separate thread at all. It’s the very basis of this thread - crèches looking for yet another Government top-up to maintain their unsustainable business model where they are offering their sub-standard services to parents who are receiving subsidised childcare provided by women on less than the minimum wage (they don’t qualify for the minimum wage as they are mostly working only part-time hours), and you’re saying that this is an economic model the world has created? No it isn’t, it’s a uniquely Irish solution to a particularly Irish problem, and if some people are to be believed - nobody is benefiting from the Government continuing to throw money at the issue like it’s 1995 and the heady days of the Celtic Tiger all over again.

    I don’t get the reference to the 1950’s tbh, you had people who were just as concerned with what people thought of them then too as we do today, and they too claimed that it would be difficult to change the economic mess they found themselves in. Here’s a very simple solution to the issue of expecting the State to bail you out of your mess - stop it.

    Crèches staff do not receive less than minimum wage, in fact in Dublin most receive at least a couple of euro above it.


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    #134
    thebaz
    Registered Users Posts: 13,692 ✭✭✭✭thebaz


    The restaurant/cafe indusry is the next one facing the insurance crisis, with the leisure industry supposedly next - The insurance industry are no doubt guilty of greed, but with the recent over payment of some personal lawsuit , and constant cases brought for daily accidents of life , like swing gate , why are the legal industry not being examined and blamed - said it many times they are the untouchables of Irish society (many great legal people but also many driven by greed - who should be investigated and rooted out.


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    #135
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Why - its self regulated.


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    #136
    BarryD2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,732 ✭✭✭BarryD2


    The solution to these insurance problems largely holds in ordinary peoples hands. Among our neighbours are people who are happy to sue for damages for all manner of minor injuries. They think this is a 'victimless' payout - that the banks/ finance industry are rotten anyway and they've no scruples. The reality of course is that in many cases they are simply suing their own friends and neighbours. Closing down local facilities and they'll then moan endlessly that 'the government' is not providing any services to them.


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    #137
    timmyntc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,077 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    BarryD2 wrote: »
    The solution to these insurance problems largely holds in ordinary peoples hands. Among our neighbours are people who are happy to sue for damages for all manner of minor injuries. They think this is a 'victimless' payout - that the banks/ finance industry are rotten anyway and they've no scruples. The reality of course is that in many cases they are simply suing their own friends and neighbours. Closing down local facilities and they'll then moan endlessly that 'the government' is not providing any services to them.

    No, the solution to these insurance problems are largely out of the hands of ordinary people.

    As shown by the central bank report - claims culture and frivolous claims are not responsible for the large increase in insurance costs. It is down to one thing - legal fees.
    Legal fees in Ireland have skyrocketed since the recession, and are now more than double those of UK for the same service.

    Solicitors fees are extortionate - this country is one of the best paying for solicitors. Worse still though, is that judges consistently award legal costs against insurance companies even when they win. So even if a case were struck out as fradulent/frivolous in a court of law, the insurance company still gets stung with a massive legal bill. Is it any wonder insurers in Ireland are so quick to settle cases?

    The legal sector are untouchable in this country - until theyre stopped the whole country will be brought to its knees from inflated costs in every sector - and it can all be traced back to legal fees.


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    #138
    FishOnABike
    Registered Users Posts: 4,488 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    timmyntc wrote: »
    Solicitors fees are extortionate - this country is one of the best paying for solicitors. Worse still though, is that judges consistently award legal costs against insurance companies even when they win. So even if a case were struck out as fradulent/frivolous in a court of law, the insurance company still gets stung with a massive legal bill. Is it any wonder insurers in Ireland are so quick to settle cases?

    Someone has to make sure the legal profession get paid.


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    #139
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,944 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    salmocab wrote: »
    Crèches staff do not receive less than minimum wage, in fact in Dublin most receive at least a couple of euro above it.


    The national minimum wage for anyone above 20 years of age is currently 9.80 per hour. The average hourly rate for a childcare worker in Ireland is €10.12 per hour. I have no doubt that there are people employed in the industry who are bringing up the national average hourly rate, but that still suggests that the vast majority of people working in childcare are earning well below the minimum wage.

    According to this report from Early Childcare Ireland, the national average hourly rate across all staff in the sector is €11.93 -

    Wages in the Early Years Sector

    Their annual salary being somewhere between €6,000 and €13,000 if they’re lucky.


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    #140
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,944 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Maewyn Succat wrote: »
    So what exactly do you suggest the government does? Do you think all subsidies for childcare and creches should be abolished?


    Yes. The State is clearly not getting a good return on their investment in the childcare provision industry.

    Maewyn Succat wrote: »
    It's to do with your outdated way of thinking


    I still don’t know what you’re referring to. It makes no sense anyway as here we are in 2019 and one of us thinks institutionalising children is beneficial to society. I’ll give you a clue - it’s not me.

    Maewyn Succat wrote: »
    What mess am I in and what do I stop?


    Stop expecting that the State should have to subsidise not just your lifestyle choices, but also the lifestyle choices of people who don’t understand how to sustain a profitable business venture and are constantly with the hand out every year looking for more subsidies from the State. Anyone being dependent upon the State to fund their lifestyle choices simply cannot be said to be a good thing for the Irish economy.


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    #141
    FishOnABike
    Registered Users Posts: 4,488 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    Fann Linn wrote: »
    Well Paschal was on Morning Ireland and NT Breakfast earlier and the spin is this €7,000,000 sop to the Insurance industry isn't that at all.

    This €7,000,000 is just stage three of Zappones plan for childcare in Ireland.

    It is however up to each individual creche how they spend it according to the Minister for Finance, and despite every other business having similar problems with insurance, 'it is not the role of Govt to subsidise private business.

    You just gotta love FG.

    Paschal was adamant it wasn't a subsidy to offset increased insurance premiums but didn't appear able to say what the purpose or justification for the payment was. Hmmm....


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    #142
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,365 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    The national minimum wage for anyone above 20 years of age is currently 9.80 per hour. The average hourly rate for a childcare worker in Ireland is €10.12 per hour. I have no doubt that there are people employed in the industry who are bringing up the national average hourly rate, but that still suggests that the vast majority of people working in childcare are earning well below the minimum wage.

    According to this report from Early Childcare Ireland, the national average hourly rate across all staff in the sector is €11.93 -

    Wages in the Early Years Sector

    Their annual salary being somewhere between €6,000 and €13,000 if they’re lucky.

    Right so no mention of people working for less than minimum wage but it does say that some work part time which drags the average down. Lots who work part time do so when their kids are in school so effectively work 3 or 4 hours a day 9 months a year. This suits a lot of parents as they don’t need to pay or find childcare. The wages are not good in the childcare sector And there is more coming down the road but your claim was wrong about parents having their kids minded by women on less than the minimum wage.


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    #143
    Ger Roe
    Registered Users Posts: 2,127 ✭✭✭Ger Roe


    FishOnABike wrote: »
    Paschal was adamant it wasn't a subsidy to offset increased insurance premiums but didn't appear able to say what the purpose or justification for the payment was. Hmmm....

    The 'purpose or justification' is to try and diffuse a growing political problem, in advance of an imminent general election. It's no more than that. It's not going to solve the child care sector problem long term, but it just might keep it a bit more quiet until the political plug is pulled on the current dail..... as soon as they have had their christmas break.

    It's buying time with tax payers money.... always easier to do than actually solving problems, particularly when the solutions might upset their friends in big business. It's a great little country to do business in (ref:Enda Kenny).... but only if you are foreign multinationals operating on generous subsidies and tax breaks. If you are a small Irish owned and operated business, you can just keep paying up and shut up.

    Bring on the election.... the game is up.


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    #144
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,944 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    salmocab wrote: »
    Right so no mention of people working for less than minimum wage but it does say that some work part time which drags the average down. Lots who work part time do so when their kids are in school so effectively work 3 or 4 hours a day 9 months a year. This suits a lot of parents as they don’t need to pay or find childcare. The wages are not good in the childcare sector And there is more coming down the road but your claim was wrong about parents having their kids minded by women on less than the minimum wage.


    If the average hourly rate is €11.23, then some people are above that, but most people working in the childcare sector are below it, well below it in most cases. I agree with you that it’s fair to say in Dublin there are some crèche where depending upon their experience and qualifications they are above it by a couple of euro, but the vast majority of people working in the childcare services sector are earning well below the minimum wage. If crèche owners had to pay their staff properly, the actual cost of childcare provision would be astronomical!


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    #145
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,365 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    If the average hourly rate is €11.23, then some people are above that, but most people working in the childcare sector are below it, well below it in most cases. I agree with you that it’s fair to say in Dublin there are some crèche where depending upon their experience and qualifications they are above it by a couple of euro, but the vast majority of people working in the childcare services sector are earning well below the minimum wage. If crèche owners had to pay their staff properly, the actual cost of childcare provision would be astronomical!

    No the vast majority of people working in childcare are not earning well below minimum wage. Why do you think a whole industry could do that and not be pulled up on it?


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    #146
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,944 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    salmocab wrote: »
    No the vast majority of people working in childcare are not earning well below minimum wage. Why do you think a whole industry could do that and not be pulled up on it?


    If the vast majority of people working in childcare are not earning well below the minimum wage, and the average hourly rate is hovering around the minimum wage, then it stands to reason that a minority are earning above that level, and the majority are earning well below it. Why do I think a whole industry could do that and not be pulled up on it? Well they weren’t, for a long time. They are now, which is only one of the major talking points in reviews of the industry. The others are of course the cost of childcare for parents, the operating costs of running crèches, and health and safety standards in the industry. There have been a couple of Prime Time reports on the issues involved in the last number of months.


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    #147
    timmyntc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,077 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    If the vast majority of people working in childcare are not earning well below the minimum wage, and the average hourly rate is hovering around the minimum wage, then it stands to reason that a minority are earning above that level, and the majority are earning well below it. Why do I think a whole industry could do that and not be pulled up on it? Well they weren’t, for a long time. They are now, which is only one of the major talking points in reviews of the industry. The others are of course the cost of childcare for parents, the operating costs of running crèches, and health and safety standards in the industry. There have been a couple of Prime Time reports on the issues involved in the last number of months.

    The minimum wage is an hourly rate.
    However nationwide average wages are calculated using yearly earnings - this doesn't take into account the part time nature of certain careers such as childcare.


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    #148
    BarryD2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,732 ✭✭✭BarryD2


    timmyntc wrote: »
    No, the solution to these insurance problems are largely out of the hands of ordinary people.

    As shown by the central bank report - claims culture and frivolous claims are not responsible for the large increase in insurance costs. It is down to one thing - legal fees.
    Legal fees in Ireland have skyrocketed since the recession, and are now more than double those of UK for the same service.

    Solicitors fees are extortionate - this country is one of the best paying for solicitors. Worse still though, is that judges consistently award legal costs against insurance companies even when they win. So even if a case were struck out as fradulent/frivolous in a court of law, the insurance company still gets stung with a massive legal bill. Is it any wonder insurers in Ireland are so quick to settle cases?

    The legal sector are untouchable in this country - until theyre stopped the whole country will be brought to its knees from inflated costs in every sector - and it can all be traced back to legal fees.

    Sure, that's part of it.

    But and it's a big BUT, if our fellow citizens were not going to solicitors and looking for compo in the first place, then a lot of this legal work would fall away. The legal boyos you're giving out about need a supply of business.

    Don't get me wrong. People who suffer genuine injury and suffering through no fault of their own should be able to take a case for compensation.

    But it's an attitude of mind. If I slipped or tripped in a local shop or restaurant due to my own rush and carelessness and sprained or broke a bone - I wouldn't dream of suing them. That's immoral. Full stop. And people who do are leeches feeding off the rest of society.

    If on the other hand, I was walking down the aisle in my local shop and an overloaded shelving unit fell on me AND injured me, then I'd look to take a case.


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    #149
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,944 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    BarryD2 wrote: »
    Sure, that's part of it.

    But and it's a big BUT, if our fellow citizens were not going to solicitors and looking for compo in the first place, then a lot of this legal work would fall away. The legal boyos you're giving out about need a supply of business.

    Don't get me wrong. People who suffer genuine injury and suffering through no fault of their own should be able to take a case for compensation.

    But it's an attitude of mind. If I slipped or tripped in a local shop or restaurant due to my own rush and carelessness and sprained or broke a bone - I wouldn't dream of suing them. That's immoral. Full stop. And people who do are leeches feeding off the rest of society.

    If on the other hand, I was walking down the aisle in my local shop and an overloaded shelving unit fell on me AND injured me, then I'd look to take a case.


    The difference between the two circumstances you describe though is that people are taking cases for compensation, and being awarded compensation, because their solicitors are able to demonstrate negligence by the business.

    These are circumstances which could reasonably have been foreseen by the business and rectified, and it’s on that basis that payouts are made. We have indeed become a more litigious society and that’s due in part to how negligent businesses are in that they’re taking risks with people’s safety and cutting corners where they can to maximise profits. When businesses are putting children at risk, the payouts are bound to be much higher than any other industry -

    Boy awarded €25,000 after 'Prime Time' crèche exposé

    That’s not the fault of litigious parents, it’s the fault of the owners of the crèche.


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    #150
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,365 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    If the vast majority of people working in childcare are not earning well below the minimum wage, and the average hourly rate is hovering around the minimum wage, then it stands to reason that a minority are earning above that level, and the majority are earning well below it. Why do I think a whole industry could do that and not be pulled up on it? Well they weren’t, for a long time. They are now, which is only one of the major talking points in reviews of the industry. The others are of course the cost of childcare for parents, the operating costs of running crèches, and health and safety standards in the industry. There have been a couple of Prime Time reports on the issues involved in the last number of months.

    The average is not hovering around minimum wage the article you linked says the average is 11:70 that’s almost 2 euro above minimum wage. Not great money by any stretch but it’s not below minimum or even close.


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    #151
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,944 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    salmocab wrote: »
    The average is not hovering around minimum wage the article you linked says the average is 11:70 that’s almost 2 euro above minimum wage. Not great money by any stretch but it’s not below minimum or even close.


    Yes but that figure is across all staff in the sector. Clearly all staff in the sector aren’t on the same pay scale as managers, room leaders etc will be earning more per hour than ordinary childcare workers. There are far more ordinary childcare workers than there are managers and room leaders and so on, on higher earnings per hour. There will be far more workers on €9 per hour than there are on €15 per hour for example.

    I’m not suggesting for a minute btw that by far and away the vast, vast majority of people working in childcare aren’t incredibly dedicated to the children’s welfare (they’d have to be really on those wages), but the issues as far as I can see are mainly caused by poor management, which often happens to be the owners of these businesses - they simply don’t know, or don’t care, about how to run a crèche properly.


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