J. K. Rowling is cancelled because she is a T.E.R.F [ADMIN WARNING IN POST #1]

Gruffalux

seenitall wrote: »

Well, to be fair, what if you had a man who is attracted singularly to, oh I don’t know, black women. He is straight and doesn’t discriminate against gays by simply being straight. But does he discriminate against white or Asian or any other races of women? I’d say no, not in the sense of racism, because I don’t think we can help what we fancy or not, in terms of racial characteristics, either. I believe that is also programmed in us, and why would we want to change it anyway? Even if it’s immutable qualities we are drawn to or repelled by. There is plenty of space in this world for all tastes.

And this is not an unusual issue, btw. I have a friend who is into men of dark complexion, the darker the better to be honest. She hasn’t been with a white man in about 20 years. Is she racist?

No. She is not. My point really is that race and gender identity are not comparable. I do think people will have preferences across many areas. I only ever find very tall attractive. Seems mean, but what can you do.

LLMMLL

seenitall wrote: »

Well, to be fair, what if you had a man who is attracted singularly to, oh I don’t know, black women. He is straight and doesn’t discriminate against gays by simply being straight. But does he discriminate against white or Asian or any other races of women? I’d say no, not in the sense of racism, because I don’t think we can help what we fancy or not, in terms of racial characteristics, either. I believe that is also programmed in us, and why would we want to change it anyway? Even if it’s immutable qualities we are drawn to or repelled by. There is plenty of space in this world for all tastes.

And this is not an unusual issue, btw. I have a friend who is into men of dark complexion, the darker the better to be honest. She hasn’t been with a white man in about 20 years. Is she racist?

And that has nothing to do with what I said. You are talking about why people are attracted to what they are attracted to.

As I have said there is no way to know the whys of that and therefore know whether it is based on racism. The straight man who is only into black women may only be into black women because of some stereotype he believes in. Or it may be an early experience he had imprinted on him in some way. We just don't know. Which is why I said the actual preference may or may not be based on transphobia.

However, the public announcement of your racially based sexual preferences against black people or Asian people is racist. Telling someone who is having a conversation with you that you wouldn't date them because they are Asian is racist.

And it's the same for trans people. You're just contributing to the horrific stereotype that trans people are sexually repulsive that we have all seen.

Nobody cares if you want to sleep with trans people or not. Why would you come onto a debate about trans rights and announce your sexual preferences other than to dehumanise them.

seenitall

Ha, just now as I was writing my last post, I thought this could very well be the next thing; my friend probably couldn’t be credibly accused of racism, however she could yet turn out to be ‘perpetuating colonialist attitudes to race’ or something like that. Cos remember: if you are ‘cis’ and white, you can never win with Woke.

briangriffin

LLMMLL wrote: »

This is a real twisting of what I actually said.

I did not say that you can rule out "natal sexes genitalia" but can't rule out "trans persons genitalia".

What I actually said was that if the reason you publically announce that you wouldn't sleep with or date a trans person is because they don't have your required genitalia but then you're fine with a cis person lacking those genitalia then you are lying about why you wouldn't date or sleep with a trans person.

At no point did I say or imply that people "can't" rule out anyone's genitalia. People can do what they wAnt.

It's very telling that rather than address what I say this position has to be invented for me where I'm telling people who they have to sleep with. It's such nonsense.

I work with a number of women, I'm a straight man. One of the women is heavy shes about 8 stone over weight.lovely woman
One of the women is an absolute wagon fit looking but the most negative person the world has ever seen.
If there was a trans woman working I wouldn't date them either does that make me transphobic?

Gervais08

briangriffin wrote: »

I work with a number of women, I'm a straight man. One of the women is heavy shes about 8 stone over weight.lovely woman
One of the women is an absolute wagon fit looking but the most negative person the world has ever seen.
If there was a trans woman working I wouldn't date them either does that make me transphobic?

I’d say no but you will likely be called it by some.

CtevenSrowder

LLMMLL wrote: »

Not what I believe and not what I said.

A person who doesn't want to sleep with a trans person may or may not be transphobic.

A person who comes onto forums to publically declare how they would never sleep with a trans person is definitely transphobic. This is equivalent to telling the world that you'd never sleep with an Asian person or black person.

No it isn't. I wouldn't sleep with a Transwoman because I am straight and only attracted to females. Transwomen are male.

LLMMLL

briangriffin wrote: »

I work with a number of women, I'm a straight man. One of the women is heavy shes about 8 stone over weight.lovely woman
One of the women is an absolute wagon fit looking but the most negative person the world has ever seen.
If there was a trans woman working I wouldn't date them either does that make me transphobic?

There's a complete difference in how you've treated these women. The two you actually work with you've rejected them as individuals. The third is a hypothetical person that you want to pubkically tell everyone you're not interested in even though they dont actually exist. Are you as eager to go into other threads and tell everyone about these two women you work with are people you would never date?

Or is the whole point of your post to come into a thread debating trans rights and tell people you would never date a trans person?

So your sexual preferences are not what make someone trabsphobic. It's how they advertise them and why they choose to advertise them in those ways.

CtevenSrowder

Sittingpretty wrote: »

It would make your eyes bleed wouldn’t it.

The only complete fcukery I can equate it to is flat earthers. It is literally that level of stupid.

I think it's worse. At least we mostly experience the world as being flat.

seenitall

Gruffalox wrote: »

No. She is not. My point really is that race and gender identity are not comparable. I do think people will have preferences across many areas. I only ever find very tall attractive. Seems mean, but what can you do.

Ah yeah, tall and lanky is not to be sniffed at

I don’t think having a preference like that seems mean, at all. It is no one’s god given right that you be attracted to them. And no one else’s business what you are attracted to and why.

Parabellum9

LLMMLL wrote: »

There's a complete difference in how you've treated these women. The two you actually work with you've rejected them as individuals. The third is a hypothetical person that you want to pubkically tell everyone you're not interested in even though they dont actually exist. Are you as eager to go into other threads and tell everyone about these two women you work with are people you would never date?

Or is the whole point of your post to come into a thread debating trans rights and tell people you would never date a trans person?

So your sexual preferences are not what make someone trabsphobic. It's how they advertise them and why they choose to advertise them in those ways.

You are the one in here telling people their own personal preferences make them racist or transphobic? Chinese women do nothing to float my boat - I must be racist so for having the personal preference??!

As for trans though they are absolutely not on my radar - I prefer real women so pretend ones would never enter in to my sphere of attraction (and they are pretend no matter how much you or they delude themselves).

LLMMLL

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

EXACTLY. Dating, by its very nature, is discriminatory.

I’ve been rejected in the past. That was me being discriminated against.
I’ve rejected in the past. That was me discriminating against somebody else.

And both those things are fine. Why would anyone even want to push to sleep with or date somebody who isn’t interested in them?

And the only explanation anyone has to give for a rejection is “No thanks”. Nobody is entitled to anything more. What happened to “No means no”?

I worry about transitioning teenagers, that they might not comprehend that transitioning might severely restrict their romantic and sexual choices when they are older. As well as leaving them with a permanently altered body.

And nobody has said that any person cannot reject another person.

Also what has no means no got to do with anything. Has anyone suggested people be forced to date those they don't want.

Unfortunately you're debating an imaginary viewpoint nobody has expressed.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Parabellum9 wrote: »

You are the one in here telling people their own personal preferences make them racist or transphobic? Chinese women do nothing to float my boat - I must be racist so for having the personal preference??!

My friend, who is just a great person, said that he’s not really into Japanese, Chinese or SE Asian women. He was feeling bad about it and asked me what I thought. I said “Well, do you consider yourself superior to women from those nations?”. He said “Of course not” and I said “Well then, you are not racist. You can’t force yourself to fancy a certain look”.

Honestly, the idea that he was fretting about it made me sad. He is one of the most open, accepting people I know.

CtevenSrowder

LLMMLL wrote: »

And nobody has said that any person cannot reject another person.

Also what has no means no got to do with anything. Has anyone suggested people be forced to date those they don't want.

Unfortunately you're debating an imaginary viewpoint nobody has expressed.

Maybe you should rephrase as you have had a few posters seemingly misinterpret you. Am I transphobic because I (a straight male) do not want to sleep with transwomen?

LLMMLL

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

My friend, who is just a great person, said that he’s not really into Japanese, Chinese or SE Asian women. He was feeling bad about it and asked me what I thought. I said “Well, do you consider yourself superior to women from those nations?”. He said “Of course not” and I said “Well then, you are not racist. You can’t force yourself to fancy a certain look”.

Honestly, the idea that he was fretting about it made me sad. He is one of the most open, accepting people I know.

Have you ever asked your friend how he would reject an Asian woman? Does he make reference to their race when rejecting them?

Parabellum9

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

My friend, who is just a great person, said that he’s not really into Japanese, Chinese or SE Asian women. He was feeling bad about it and asked me what I thought. I said “Well, do you consider yourself superior to women from those nations?”. He said “Of course not” and I said “Well then, you are not racist. You can’t force yourself to fancy a certain look”.

Honestly, the idea that he was fretting about it made me sad. He is one of the most open, accepting people I know.

It’s personal choice at the end of the day (for the record I think there are some extremely attractive Japanese girls but the Chinese don’t do anything for me). The same way pixie haircuts and glasses are an instant turnoff or head to toe tattoos - I know what I like and I know what I don’t, it’s not racist or looking down on those people at all - they just don’t fit my personal description of “attractive”.

CtevenSrowder

LLMMLL wrote: »

Have you ever asked your friend how he would reject an Asian woman? Does he make reference to their race when rejecting them?

What difference does it make if one tells the truth openly or lies whilst keeping the truth to themselves?

Gervais08

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

EXACTLY. Dating, by its very nature, is discriminatory.

I’ve been rejected in the past. That was me being discriminated against.
I’ve rejected in the past. That was me discriminating against somebody else.

And both those things are fine. Why would anyone even want to push to sleep with or date somebody who isn’t interested in them?

And the only explanation anyone has to give for a rejection is “No thanks”. Nobody is entitled to anything more. What happened to “No means no”?

I worry about transitioning teenagers, that they might not comprehend that transitioning might severely restrict their romantic and sexual choices when they are older. As well as potentially leaving them with a permanently altered body.

Google “the cotton ceiling” - a concept enthusiastically supported by the same crowd who thought Baby Its Cold Outside was “rapey”.

Chilling.

LLMMLL

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

Maybe you should rephrase as you have had a few posters seemingly misinterpret you. Am I transphobic because I (a straight male) do not want to sleep with transwomen?

Why would I need to rephrase something I've explicitly stated NUMEROUS times. I literally said "nobody is suggesting that someone be forced to date someone they don't want to" I would say in 4 or 5 posts.

The reason people are misinterpreting is not because I've misphrased it. They have to misinterpret me because they cannot actually handle the actual position I've put forward. The only way for them to proceed is to pretend I want to force people to sleep with others against their will. It's actually quite amusing.

Parabellum9

LLMMLL wrote: »

Why would I need to rephrase something I've explicitly stated NUMEROUS times. I literally said "nobody is suggesting that someone be forced to date someone they don't want to" I would say in 4 or 5 posts.

The reason people are misinterpreting is not because I've misphrased it. They have to misinterpret me because they cannot actually handle the actual position I've put forward. The only way for them to proceed is to pretend I want to force people to sleep with others against their will. It's actually quite amusing.

You are the one insinuating that their personal preference is somehow deep rooted in racism...

LLMMLL

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

What difference does it make if one tells the truth openly or lies whilst keeping the truth to themselves?

A lot. For instance, if a racist thinks white people are superior to black people, personally I would rather they did not go up and inform a random black person of their opinion. But I guess I'm a bit strange that way.

Sir Oxman

I can only surmise that this latest melted critical twist by the newly returned is deflection from the previously highly dubious (that's real kindness btw) allusion that "JKR's is d-e-f-i-n-i-t-e-l-y a bigot and a nasty witch who MUST NOT BE HEARD OR READ because TRANZZPHOBIDYSTOPIA innit" (*whatever today's latest definition is, updated whenever an argument is lost)


*For a headscratching, shiny all-new definition which will give the earnest comedians here a run for their money, search for the UK Lib Dems latest definition of 'transphobia', the quotes are present because well, have a search and read.
From a party that cannot bring itself to define what 'woman' or 'female' is without umming, ahhing and saying 'essence' and 'non-male' quite a lot in response.

CtevenSrowder

LLMMLL wrote: »

Why would I need to rephrase something I've explicitly stated NUMEROUS times. I literally said "nobody is suggesting that someone be forced to date someone they don't want to" I would say in 4 or 5 posts.

The reason people are misinterpreting is not because I've misphrased it. They have to misinterpret me because they cannot actually handle the actual position I've put forward. The only way for them to proceed is to pretend I want to force people to sleep with others against their will. It's actually quite amusing.

Can you answer my question please.

LLMMLL

Parabellum9 wrote: »

You are the one insinuating that their personal preference is somehow deep rooted in racism...

Nope not what I said. I said it's impossible to know what it's rooted in. Not sure how what you say even vaguely follows from what I said but.... Oh well.

But even if that is what I said (it's not) that would still not imply that people be forced to sleep with people they don't want to.

So it's just layer after layer of incorrect logic and misreadings.

LLMMLL

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

Can you answer my question please.

I can't really as I already have a strong belief about your opinions on trans people based on our multiple interactions. However I have answered that very question of other people on the thread so just go back and read through it.

Airyfairy12

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

Maybe you should rephrase as you have had a few posters seemingly misinterpret you. Am I transphobic because I (a straight male) do not want to sleep with transwomen?

Yes agreed, either youre contradicting yourself or just not expressing yourself clearly.

Either way, it really feels that you are forcing your views on other people and calling anyone with a differing opinion racists and transphobes.

Parabellum9

LLMMLL wrote: »

Nope not what I said. I said it's impossible to know what it's rooted in. Not sure how what you say even vaguely follows from what I said but.... Oh well.

But even if that is what I said (it's not) that would still not imply that people be forced to sleep with people they don't want to.

So it's just layer after layer of incorrect logic and misreadings.

There is no logic breakdown or misreading here, read your own posts back. You have twice now commented on race - asking a poster if their friend who doesn’t have a preference would go up to an Asian person and tell them they weren’t interested because of their race. Then just a few posts above a poster asked if it was wrong to think someone even if you don’t openly express it and you jump in with some nonsense about walking up to a black person and telling them why you don’t think they’d be suitable.

If you consider yourself to be woke (which I get the feeling you do) you’d do well to wake the **** up and stop talking out both sides of your mouth.

LLMMLL

Sir Oxman wrote: »

I can only surmise that this latest melted critical twist by the newly returned is deflection from the previously highly dubious (that's real kindness btw) allusion that "JKR's is d-e-f-i-n-i-t-e-l-y a bigot and a nasty witch who MUST NOT BE HEARD OR READ because TRANZZPHOBIDYSTOPIA innit" (*whatever today's latest definition is, updated whenever an argument is lost)


*For a headscratching, shiny all-new definition which will give the earnest comedians here a run for their money, search for the UK Lib Dems latest definition of 'transphobia', the quotes are present because well, have a search and read.
From a party that cannot bring itself to define what 'woman' or 'female' is without umming, ahhing and saying 'essence' and 'non-male' quite a lot in response.

Oh I'm happy to go back to discussing JK. It was not me who brought up this subthread. It was hatrickpatrick.

LLMMLL

Parabellum9 wrote: »

There is no logic breakdown or misreading here, read your own posts back. You have twice now commented on race - asking a poster if their friend who doesn’t have a preference would go up to an Asian person and tell them they weren’t interested because of their race. Then just a few posts above a poster asked if it was wrong to think someone even if you don’t openly express it and you jump in with some nonsense about walking up to a black person and telling them why you don’t think they’d be suitable.

If you consider yourself to be woke (which I get the feeling you do) you’d do well to wake the **** up and stop talking out both sides of your mouth.

Nope it's still a misreading of what I said. From the very start I have drawn the link between racism and transphobia in dating as being the way people advertise their sexual preferences and why they choose to advertise them.

Going from this to "you want to force me to sleep with trans people" is a massive logic fail.

andekwarhola

SusieBlue wrote: »

There aren’t enough adjectives in the world to accurately describe how much I loathe the word cis.

I don't mind it insofar that some people might want to identify as that. Each to their own.

What I virulently resent is the designation being applied to myself. As noted already, it amounts to being deliberately placed on a spectrum of identity on which you don't feel you belong. And the sole point of said designation is nothing to do with your respecting your reality; it's simply to validate other identities by enforced comparison.

LLMMLL

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

Yes agreed, either youre contradicting yourself or just not expressing yourself clearly.

Either way, it really feels that you are forcing your views on other people and calling anyone with a differing opinion racists and transphobes.

So debate is now "forcing your views on other people"? Then I suppose you are trying to force your views on me? If not then why is it different?

I'm not just calling random people racist or transphobic. I'm explaining why certain behaviours are racist or transphobic. You're free to disagree. Where's the issue?