J. K. Rowling is cancelled because she is a T.E.R.F [ADMIN WARNING IN POST #1]

volchitsa

LLMMLL wrote: »

In the majority view they are.

When was this put to the people? I seem to have missed that referendum.

Gatling

LLMMLL wrote: »

I wouldn't take boards as the real world.....

So your point is moot

volchitsa

Delirium wrote: »

Not according to the law in Ireland, i.e. trans women are recognised as women.

That's true, but it seems to have been brought in without any consultation of the people, so there's no evidence that it's a majority view, which was the claim made.

I suspect that many people (myself included) were unaware of the implications and that if there were to be a proper referendum, as for SSM or the 8th amendment, the majority view may well not be what the law currently says.

LLMMLL

volchitsa wrote: »

When was this put to the people? I seem to have missed that referendum.

When you step off the internet and talk to people in the real world you'll find the support for TERFs is very low.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

LLMMLL wrote: »

Misrepresentation. Trans women are women. So are black women. Your opinion that TRAs are othering black.women is based on your othering of trans women. TRAs consider both trans women and black women to be women and are othering neither.

Transgender women are transgender women. They are also male. I am indeed othering them because they are male with the attendant, irreversible physical advantages that brings.

Whereas black women are women just like white women. The only difference is skin colour.

The differences between males and females are many and varied. We have sex-segregated spaces based on those significant differences.

To compare it to the segregation of black people is fantastically disingenuous. I wonder if black people get fed up of being used like this?

Parabellum9

Delirium wrote: »

Not according to the law in Ireland, i.e. trans women are recognised as women.

Not worth the paper it's written on as the public were never consulted regarding it. And the law doesn't get to tell people what to believe themselves - i.e they will never be women in the sense we all know what women are. It's only placation by stealth and if it ever comes to a public referendum, it will be put firmly back in the bin where it belongs.

Errashareesh

LLMMLL wrote: »

This is hilarious. You quote a post from ODB with a dismissive sneery meme while talking about "the other side" can only be sneery. This is the gift that keeps on giving.

It's not the gift that keeps on giving at all - or else you're just very very easily amused.

A sneery meme is appropriate when something deserves to be sneered at. You sneer because of people saying things which are correct but you don't like them so ridicule is the go-to tactic.

You owe Gruffalux an apology really. Read her post, take her points on board. You'll see it's nothing but thoughtful and well supported. No nastiness towards anyone - because she doesn't need to resort to that as she has so much else to offer.

It seems like you have been programmed to believe that any disagreement with any aspect of trans ideology - even if absurd - is transphobic. I used to be the same but then the ramifications of some aspects (certainly not all) for women then became clear to me so I took them on board, faced up to them. There are trans people who don't agree with every aspect.

You and the other few here won't face up to them - not because they are incorrect or baseless - but because you are such slaves to the liberal point of view AT ALL COSTS. Even if it's contradictory. Even if you consider yourselves feminist yet here is a feminist concern (you won't even criticise the abuse tempered with violent language which women are receiving on social media - because it's too inconvenient). And all you offer is "transphobe", misrepresentation, sneers, selective quoting, swoop-in posts when convenient, insults and faux laughter. Because that is all you have. If you had a decent counter argument you would of course deploy it.

You posted above that other posters like me lack nuance - amazing denial of reality. They have reams and reams of nuance to their arguments. Masses of support.

It's your posts and others' in the same position which are lacking nuance (those who do post of course - others have nothing to offer but clicking on the thanks button).

Tired Gardener

Seeing how we have seen the claim that 'puberty blockers are reversible', and the claim of being 'born in the wrong body' both back peddled on very fast by the NHS and Mermaids... I wonder how long it is before we see the same back peddling with the 'Trans women are women', and 'Tran men are men' claims?

Gervais08

LLMMLL wrote: »

When you step off the internet and talk to people in the real world you'll find the support for TERFs is very low.

Could you please refrain from using that slur word? It is offensive and inaccurate. My thanks.

volchitsa

LLMMLL wrote: »

When you step off the internet and talk to people in the real world you'll find the support for TERFs is very low.

Actually what I find is that awareness of the situation is very low: most people just don't realize that a man merely has to make a declaration that he feels he is a woman to become one legally, and that when people become aware of the implications, they are almost all horrified by them.

Gatling

It's like dealing with flat earther's and trying to force people to believe them despite science and others proving them absolutely wrong and bonkers

Parabellum9

LLMMLL wrote: »

When you step off the internet and talk to people in the real world you'll find the support for TERFs is very low.

The real world is not college safe spaces where people who believe in this nonsense reside - go down to your local shop and ask people there if a man who believes they are a woman, is an actual woman. It might open your eyes a bit but I doubt that.

LLMMLL

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Transgender women are transgender women. They are also male. I am indeed othering them because they are male with the attendant, irreversible physical advantages that brings.

Whereas black women are women just like white women. The only difference is skin colour.

The differences between males and females are many and varied. We have sex-segregated spaces based on those significant differences.

To compare it to the segregation of black people is fantastically disingenuous.

You are fully entitled to your opinion and obviously I disagree.

However it's irrelevant to the issue of whether TRAs are othering black women.

That assertion of yours is rooted in your othering of trans women.

Since TRAs recognize that trans women are women, and black women are women, and all women are women, they are othering nobody. It is based on a faulty framing of their beliefs.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Delirium wrote: »

Not according to the law in Ireland, i.e. trans women are recognised as women.

They are inescapably biologically male. Does a law extinguish that objective reality? Did all the physical advantages of being male melt away when that law was passed? And, thankfully, the thought police don’t exist. You can’t force somebody to believe that a male is a female.

LLMMLL

Parabellum9 wrote: »

The real world is not college safe spaces where people who believe in this nonsense reside - go down to your local shop and ask people there if a man who believes they are a woman, is an actual woman. It might open your eyes a bit but I doubt that.

I know people from all walks of life. Most are horrified by JKs beliefs. I have encountered some initial support for her but once the issues are discussed I've found people to lose support for her quite quickly.

Errashareesh

How in the name of god could anyone possibly be "horrified" by a woman stating that biology is real?! That seems extremely implausible.

Parabellum9

LLMMLL wrote: »

I know people from all walks of life. Most are horrified by JKs beliefs. I have encountered some initial support for her but once the issues are discussed I've found people to lose support for her quite quickly.

I'd love to know what people you are talking to because that is not reality anywhere, the majority of people that aren't aware of these things don't give 2 ****s about trans or their issues or what JK said - the people who are aware fall in to 2 categories, those who absolutely support her because this nonsense is dangerous and being pushed in to the real world, or those who object because they have some direct involvement in the trans community. I'm guessing those who are "horrified" fall in to the latter.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Tired Gardener wrote: »

Seeing how we have seen the claim that 'puberty blockers are reversible', and the claim of being 'born in the wrong body' both back peddled on very fast by the NHS and Mermaids... I wonder how long it is before we see the same back peddling with the 'Trans women are women', and 'Tran men are men' claims?

Well, we saw some utterly shameless and craven back-peddling this week by a prominent transgender rights group so yeah, I fully expect future proclamations of “We didn’t mean they are literally men/women. Duh”.

Gervais08

LLMMLL wrote: »

I know people from all walks of life. Most are horrified by JKs beliefs. I have encountered some initial support for her but once the issues are discussed I've found people to lose support for her quite quickly.

Or more likely people are agreeing with you to get you stop, like when my elderly used to go on about dragging us to Mass.

LLMMLL

Parabellum9 wrote: »

I'd love to know what people you are talking to because that is not reality anywhere, the majority of people that aren't aware of these things don't give 2 ****s about trans or their issues or what JK said - the people who are aware fall in to 2 categories, those who absolutely support her because this nonsense is dangerous and being pushed in to the real world, or those who object because they have some direct involvement in the trans community. I'm guessing those who are "horrified" fall in to the latter.

I recommend not taking boards and mumsnet too seriously.

Gervais08

Errashareesh wrote: »

How in the name of god could anyone possibly be "horrified" by a woman stating that biology is real?!

Ask that White Rabbit there - we’re living down his hole now.

CtevenSrowder

LLMMLL wrote: »

I know people from all walks of life. Most are horrified by JKs beliefs. I have encountered some initial support for her but once the issues are discussed I've found people to lose support for her quite quickly.

Are they horrified by her believes or can't be bothered having you call them transphobic and TERF endlessly when discussing the topic?

Also will ask again:

Thank you for answering. If you could placate me pls. .. What if the transwomen has had sex reassignment surgery? John does still not want to sleep with the transwomen, for the previous stated reason (they are male). Is this an act of transphobia in your view?

Wibbs

Delirium wrote: »

Not according to the law in Ireland, i.e. trans women are recognised as women.

This is a stupid argument. The law can be and regularly is an ass and this one is. 20 years ago the law said they weren't. Did this mean they weren't women(or men) back then? 40 years ago according to the law women couldn't be raped in marriage, does this mean women weren't raped by their husbands? Of course not. I understand why the law was brought in to protect Trans individuals and that's game ball, but it's a scientific and medical nonsense that flies in the face of reality and referencing the law doesn't change that one bit.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Gervais08 wrote: »

Or more likely people are agreeing with you to get you stop, like when my elderly used to go on about dragging us to Mass.

Or like the odd “Michael Jackson is innocent” superfan I’ve met in my life. I just make non-committal noises and get the hell away from the person ASAP.

Rothko

Errashareesh wrote: »

How in the name of god could anyone possibly be "horrified" by a woman stating that biology is real?! That seems extremely implausible.

I wouldn't believe anything he says.

Gatling

Parabellum9 wrote: »

You are the one here claiming the average Michael and Mary down the road are hardcore TRA's and everybody outside of this forum is so right on for trans rights and burning JK at the stake. You really do live in your own world....

And calls people who don't agree with his opinion terfs

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

Trans women are women.

How are they women?

What is your definition of 'woman' that makes trans women literally women?

LLMMLL

Gatling wrote: »

And calls people who don't agree with his opinion terfs

I don't think you're ever going to be successful at having that reclassed as an insult.

One eyed Jack

LLMMLL wrote: »

Misrepresentation. Trans women are women. So are black women. Your opinion that TRAs are othering black.women is based on your othering of trans women. TRAs consider both trans women and black women to be women and are othering neither.

Isn’t that just your opinion too though that “trans women are women”, just like it’s your opinion that anyone who doesn’t share your opinions could possibly be transphobic? The whole thing seems to revolve around acknowledging your perceived authority to make these sorts of determinations.

Your determination that someone could be transphobic appears to be based more upon the fact that they don’t share your opinions, than their opinions with regard to the rights of people who are transgender.

It’s more accurate to acknowledge the fact that some TRAs consider “trans women” to be women, most TRAs certainly do not. It’s an extremist minority who parrot that particular mantra, not because they actually believe it themselves, not even because they want other people to believe it, but simply because they know it draws attention to them and winds people up. This extremist minority are akin to the extremist minority in any group or movement - anyone who doesn’t share their opinions are agin ‘em and must be condemned as transphobic, or misogynistic, etc. It’s common rhetoric often used with great effect because it works on people who don’t think too hard -


You're either with us, or against us


It only has any meaning if one thinks of the person making the statement as their peer, a good example being the godawful term “TERF” - it divides feminists (who are mostly women) into feminists who support the idea that “trans women are women” and therefore should be regarded as women, deserving of rights and protections as women and so on, and those feminists who disagree - people who are transgender are not women, they are people who are transgender, and their campaign for their rights is completely separate and distinct from any campaigns to promote the rights and welfare of women and girls.

Gatling

LLMMLL wrote: »

I don't think you're ever going to be successful at having that reclassed as an insult.

I don't give a flying ....

I'll leave the censorship to Mary Whitehouse in feedback