J. K. Rowling is cancelled because she is a T.E.R.F [ADMIN WARNING IN POST #1]

JoannaJag

LLMMLL wrote: »

I think as long as we both stay within the rules of the site there is no issue.

The only issue is that gender critical people will continue to view your posts as being antagonistic, utterly one-sided and incapable of considering other people’s experiences. Just as if people continue to say trans women are men you will continue to view their posts as offensive unreasonable and uncompromising. It doesn’t make for much of a discussion and quickly descends into tit-for-tat sniping.

So even if our private beliefs support the use of terf/misgendering or whatever, isn’t it more productive to show a bit of consideration for others’ world views? Even as we try to debate very opposing views?

Parabellum9

LLMMLL wrote: »

Trans women are a subgroup of women. Just as cis women are.

Of course I know you don't agree and that's absolutely your right.

Im just saying let's not pretend that if someone campaigns for trans women then they do not really believe that trans women are women. That's just silly.

Did you ever do biology in school? Men have male anatomy - penis and scrotum. Women have female anatomy - a vagina, womb and clitoris. If a man decides to be a trans woman, they still have male anatomy. Likewise if a female wants to be a trans man, they still have the female anatomy. Therefore trans either can never be considered a subset of what they claim to be as they don’t have and never will have the anatomical parts required to be deemed as such.

Vic_08

LLMMLL wrote: »

You can proceed as you wish within the guidelines of the site. That's completely up to you.

I mean I'd be happy to give up using the term TERF if people on this thread were going to stop referring to transwomen as men.

We both know that ain't gonna happen.

:rolleyes:

TERF is a term made up to categorise and mostly denigrate people, throw anyone who disagrees with your position into a handy group that you can then demonise and cancel without having to actually win a rational debate with.

Transwomen are Men is a fact, a fact based on scientific evidence, if you have some evidence to counter that I'd be happy to hear it out.


Instead what you and those pushing this agenda want is for that FACT to be ignored, denied and made taboo or even illegal to even speak of.

Forcing your BELIEFS, your doctorine on society is not ok with me, no more than any other belief-based group demanding their religion be given preference over facts and scientific reason.

I can't stop people believing any manner of faiths, beliefs or theories, I can and will object and resist their attempts to force those beliefs be accepted as true without any proof.

LLMMLL

JoannaJag wrote: »

The only issue is that gender critical people will continue to view your posts as being antagonistic, utterly one-sided and incapable of considering other people’s experiences. Just as if people continue to say trans women are men you will continue to view their posts as offensive unreasonable and uncompromising. It doesn’t make for much of a discussion and quickly descends into tit-for-tat sniping.

So even if our private beliefs support the use of terf/misgendering or whatever, isn’t it more productive to show a bit of consideration for others’ world views? Even as we try to debate very opposing views?

Well let me know when you've successfully gotten people to stop referring to transWomen as men and I'll happily stop using the word TERF. All for the sake of mutual respect.

Gatling

LLMMLL wrote: »

No. Are you? I'm saying the word TERF is totally fine.

I believe TERFs are not at all offended but are waging a PR campaign against the word as a smokescreen

The word including in this thread is being used in a derogatory fashion it's a weapon ,you can call people terfs all day long that don't agree with your opinion ,

It's absolutely blatant too .

Justin Credible Darts

LLMMLL wrote: »

Trans women are a subgroup of women. Just as cis women are.

how are males a sub group of women ?


I would love to know where you learned biology

LLMMLL

Gatling wrote: »

The word including in this thread is being used in a derogatory fashion it's a weapon ,you can call people terfs all day long that don't agree with your opinion ,

It's absolutely blatant too .

TERF describes people with a certain set of opinions. I do not call everyone who disagrees with me a TERF.

For example OEJ clearly disagrees with me and I do not for a second think he's a TERF.

As I said it's a PR campaign.

I'm not going to engage on this subject anymore as I recognise the tactic is to cause such a fuss about it that mods will have to intervene.

I will continue to use it as a non derogatory convenient descriptor of people who hold certain beliefs And that's the last I will say on it.

JoannaJag

I’ve stopped. I’ve no control over anyone else. You suggest I’m pretending to be offended by the use of The word. Perhaps you are pretending to be offended by people pointing out that transwomen are men?

After all, if people are at such a high risk of violence, abuse, murder, assault and bullying as is stated, it seems surprising that trans activists have so much time to spend making a fuss over anonymous people stating facts over the internet.

Or maybe we accept that these things cause offense and there are better ways to debate.

Gatling

Is that you carerhomeless

Gruffalux

It is not 2 belief systems clashing. It is one belief system clashing with reality.

To start this creeping idea that there is some equivalence between "beliefs' equally deserving of consideration being discussed, and so let us all be polite and relativistic about it, is not useful.

It has already caused trouble eg violent males imprisoned where women are also imprisoned helplessly. People were trying to be polite and nice and could not or did not extrapolate to the logical conclusion of the inherent contradictions in accommodating falsehood, maybe because being nice is easier.

LLMMLL

Gruffalux wrote: »

It is not 2 belief systems clashing. It is one belief system clashing with reality.

To start this creeping idea that there is some equivalence between "beliefs' equally deserving of consideration being discussed, and so let us all be polite and relativistic about it, is not useful.

It has already caused trouble eg violent males imprisoned where women are also imprisoned helplessly. People were trying to be polite and nice and could not or did not extrapolate to the logical conclusion of the inherent contradictions in accommodating falsehood, maybe because being nice is easier.

People tried to be nice? No. Trans people fought for their rights. Successfully. I suppose the nice straight people granted gay people the right to marry. So kind of them. Thank you benevolent overlords.

JoannaJag

I think it’s reasonable to say look, you believe you are a woman, we can refer to you as she and stand up for you if people threaten you with violence, but there are some circumstances where bodies MATTER and the difference between women and transwomen MATTERS. So unfortunately we can’t accommodate you as a woman in sport/prison/refuges but we will support a safe space for you and other trans people who don’t want to be accommodated with people of the same sex.

Maybe that’s naive?

JoannaJag

My point is that taking an uncompromising stance is polarising and unlikely to end in a conclusion that works for the maximum number of people. And I do think that’s possible, but not while we identify the opposing view as terfs VS misogynists or whatever.

Parabellum9

LLMMLL wrote: »

People tried to be nice? No. Trans people fought for their rights. Successfully. I suppose the nice straight people granted gay people the right to marry. So kind of them. Thank you benevolent overlords.

From what I see the trans community bullied their way to rights and continue to do so in attempting to force everyone and everything to delude themselves in to believing something that is not true. That tactic will not work and will backfire spectacularly mark my words - you as an example do absolutely nothing to further or foster the idea of accepting this ideology. You stir the ****, make smart comments and refuse to answer questions before throwing derogatory terms at people who don’t agree with how you see the world or that community. It’s a common tactic I’ve seen from multiple “TRA’s” and it will not end well in the long run.

One eyed Jack

LLMMLL wrote: »

Im just saying let's not pretend that if someone campaigns for trans women then they do not really believe that trans women are women. That's just silly.

I’ll take “things nobody said” for €50 please

Gruffalux

JoannaJag wrote: »

I think it’s reasonable to say look, you believe you are a woman, we can refer to you as she and stand up for you if people threaten you with violence, but there are some circumstances where bodies MATTER and the difference between women and transwomen MATTERS. So unfortunately we can’t accommodate you as a woman in sport/prison/refuges but we will support a safe space for you and other trans people who don’t want to be accommodated with people of the same sex.

Maybe that’s naive?

People have been saying this non stop. Third spaces. Protection and rights for trans people. Mind them. They need to he minded. Mind sex based protections. Mind the truth.

LLMMLL

Parabellum9 wrote: »

From what I see the trans community bullied their way to rights and continue to do so in attempting to force everyone and everything to delude themselves in to believing something that is not true. That tactic will not work and will backfire spectacularly mark my words - you as an example do absolutely nothing to further or foster the idea of accepting this ideology. You stir the ****, make smart comments and refuse to answer questions before throwing derogatory terms at people who don’t agree with how you see the world or that community. It’s a common tactic I’ve seen from multiple “TRA’s” and it will not end well in the long run.

The trans community has a lot of support in the non boards/mumsnet world. It'll be fine unless we get a TERF justice minister like in the UK.

Gatling

LLMMLL wrote: »

The trans community has a lot of support in the mumsnet world.

Have anyone told them there name is using non inclusive language mum word used to describe a mother by their own child or maybe a professional in a medical or education settings.

Parabellum9

LLMMLL wrote: »

The trans community has a lot of support in the non boards/mumsnet world. It'll be fine unless we get a TERF justice minister like in the UK.

No they don’t and you are deluding yourself if you think a majority acceptance will ever happen with the way they conduct themselves. Reality is not Twitter or college safe spaces that this ideology thrives in and I guarantee you if things such as the knowledge of using puberty blockers on children, or housing dangerous males with ideas of them being female in women’s prison s were more widespread and known, this stuff wouldn’t last another year. When the majority becomes aware of exactly what this ideology is attempting to force in to law and the real world it will be game over - you can quote me on that.

JoannaJag

Ok Gruffalux but we can say this without constantly reminding transwomen that they are men. (They are!! But what is the purpose of saying something true and hurtful?) I think it hurts our cause.

LLMMLL

Parabellum9 wrote: »

No they don’t and you are deluding yourself if you think a majority acceptance will ever happen with the way they conduct themselves. Reality is not Twitter or college safe spaces that this ideology thrives in and I guarantee you if things such as the knowledge of using puberty blockers on children, or housing dangerous males with ideas of them being female in women’s prison s were more widespread and known, this stuff wouldn’t last another year. When the majority becomes aware of exactly what this ideology is attempting to force in to law and the real world it will be game over - you can quote me on that.

No it won't. The majority are very supporting.

Gatling

JoannaJag wrote: »

Ok Gruffalux but we can say this without constantly reminding transwomen that they are men. (They are!! But what is the purpose of saying something true and hurtful?) I think it hurts our cause.

the gates must have left open somewhere



Nice try dude

Gruffalux

LLMMLL wrote: »

People tried to be nice? No. Trans people fought for their rights. Successfully. I suppose the nice straight people granted gay people the right to marry. So kind of them. Thank you benevolent overlords.

I should not reply to this kind of sneering but on this subject of rights how do you feel about all the minors experimented on as a result of adopting the Dutch affirmation model which is now being rowed back everywhere.? The activists who pushed for the "rights" to hormones for children are complicit in the harm they have caused. The allies who defended those rights have enabled massive harm to juveniles and vulnerable people. The rights accrued have enabled the collateral damage of extra rapes in prison, the shutting down of domestic violence refuges, the loss of scholarships to girls, the loss of livelihoods by people who did not want to offer intimate beauty treatments, and on and on. It is a toxic rights movement with which you ally yourself. It has caused terrible harm.
And that TRA Rights movement has nothing to do with gay rights or black women's rights or any of your contrivances.

Justin Credible Darts

LLMMLL wrote: »

No it won't. The majority are very supporting.

are you even aware how people are laughing at your idiotic comments.
The majority on here think you are spouting insane rubbish.


the real world would be far harder on you.


you trying to claim men are a subset of real women is not only hilarious, it shows you are uneducated on biology or you think repeating over and over and over and over your drivel, people will suddenly forget biology.

JoannaJag

I don’t know what that means? I’m just so exhausted with trying to find a way forward that doesn’t HURT people. So I’m willing to accept that there is a belief system that is at odds with mine. And then I pick the things that are utterly non negotiable. So I won’t insist you are a man but I will not accept that you are a women. I just want my kids to grow up safely.

LLMMLL

Gruffalux wrote: »

I should not reply to this kind of sneering but on this subject of rights how do you feel about all the minors experimented on as a result of adopting the Dutch affirmation model which is now being rowed back everywhere.? The activists who pushed for the "rights" to hormones for children are complicit in the harm they have caused. The allies who defended those rights have enabled massive harm to juveniles and vulnerable people. The rights accrued have enabled the collateral damage of extra rapes in prison, the shutting down of domestic violence refuges, the loss of scholarships to girls, the loss of livelihoods by people who did not want to offer intimate beauty treatments, and on and on. It is a toxic rights movement with which you ally yourself. It has caused terrible harm.
And that TRA Rights movement has nothing to do with gay rights or black women's rights or any of your contrivances.

Actually it's done a lot of good and improved the lives of trans people. The negative PR campaign won't change that.

Gatling

LLMMLL wrote: »

The negative PR campaign won't change that.

Like the facts .

Transwomen are not women ,but are a subset of men

Errashareesh

I don't see people saying trans women are men - trans women are not women, yes (because this is completely correct) but not trans women are men.

LLMMLL wrote: »

I am saying that I will operate fully with the rules of the site.

No you are not doing so. Your posts are spiteful and antagonistic.

Still waiting for LLMMLL to explain in what sense trans women ARE women.

What definition of "woman" are you using?

Gruffalux

JoannaJag wrote: »

I don’t know what that means? I’m just so exhausted with trying to find a way forward that doesn’t HURT people. So I’m willing to accept that there is a belief system that is at odds with mine. And then I pick the things that are utterly non negotiable. So I won’t insist you are a man but I will not accept that you are a women. I just want my kids to grow up safely.

Check out Debbie Hayton. She is a transwoman. As an example. Lovely person. She covers some relevant areas in this thread but you can look at her timeline generally. This idea that telling the truth is hate or hurt is incorrect
https://twitter.com/DebbieHayton/status/1267915388983169027?s=19