J. K. Rowling is cancelled because she is a T.E.R.F [ADMIN WARNING IN POST #1]

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

LiquidZeb wrote: »

What about women who are post menopause? Or women who've undergone hysterectomies? Or transwomen?

I can’t believe people are still making this achingly stupid point. She didn’t say all females menstruate. She said that only females menstruate. Some females don’t menstruate, NO males do.

And transwomen are male. Do you need further clarification there?

One eyed Jack

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You are missing the point.

It's because of "self identify" policies that women could feel intimidated because they know it is possible a man is in their changing room.

No I got the point, I acknowledge that it a distinct possibility that if a woman who felt intimidated by the presence of someone else who they weren’t sure was a man or a woman, and on that basis made a complaint about it, that they might be called a transphobe.

Well, yes, they could be.

Is that sufficient justification to prohibit anyone whom she does not regard as a woman from using the changing rooms?

One eyed Jack

One eyed Jack wrote: »

No I got the point, I acknowledge that it a distinct possibility that if a woman who felt intimidated by the presence of someone else who they weren’t sure was a man or a woman, and on that basis made a complaint about it, that they might be called a transphobe.

Well, yes, they could be.

Is that sufficient justification to prohibit anyone whom she does not regard as a woman from using the changing rooms?

I would hope that if my daughter felt uncomfortable in a changing room because there was someone in a female only area who she suspected to be a man, she would be able to report it without fear of being a transphobe.

But if self identification is acceptable justification for men to enter women's spaces, she apparently has no comeback as by some odd people's metric, that is transphobia

Gruffalux

Extensive studies show 5 to 13% of transwomen have genital surgery, so let us say 9% ish to go to the middle of the estimates. Unfortunately a lot more transmen are beginning to have genital surgery. Usually it is the extension of clitoris type surgeries rather than phalloplasty, thank goodness, as the latter surgeries have high levels of complication and disatisfaction.
Anyway I mention the figures because a minimum 91% of transwomen have male genitals. Which is grand. I think it is better in fact to have intact healthy body form and function no matter what gender expression one is inclined towards.

But I am interested to know if people who say Transwomen ARE women, or real women as recently mentioned by LZ there, would date, have sex with, marry or couple long term with transwomen. I know it is a personal question but if one is to say TWAW then a listener must presume that any difference will be completely disregarded for ALL purposes. Can anyone answer truthfully. Jack? Zeb? Or gay men contributing - are you effectively genital - blind when it comes to Transmen are men?

volchitsa

One eyed Jack wrote: »

No I got the point, I acknowledge that it a distinct possibility that if a woman who felt intimidated by the presence of someone else who they weren’t sure was a man or a woman, and on that basis made a complaint about it, that they might be called a transphobe.

Well, yes, they could be.

Is that sufficient justification to prohibit anyone whom she does not regard as a woman from using the changing rooms?

If they have male genitals, yes.
If they just have short hair and tiny breasts, no.

It's really not rocket science.

LiquidZeb

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

I can’t believe people are still making this achingly stupid point. She didn’t say all females menstruate. She said that only females menstruate. Some females don’t menstruate, NO males do.

And transwomen are male. Do you need further clarification there?

Transwomen are women. It's in the name. Tbh I don't see why we have to differentiate

JL555

Deleted User wrote: »

I would hope that if my daughter felt uncomfortable in a changing room because there was someone in a female only area who she suspected to be a man, she would be able to report it without fear of being a transphobe.

But if self identification is acceptable justification for men to enter women's spaces, she apparently has no comeback as by some odd people's metric, that is transphobia

I think it's a fair concern to raise. If the daughter felt she couldn't speak out or ask the question, then I would hope she would raise her concerns to me and I certainly would escalate it, I'd rather be called transphobic than not have backed up my kid.

LiquidZeb

LiquidZeb wrote: »

Transwomen are women. It's in the name. Tbh I don't see why we have to differentiate

Horseflies are horses then too are they?

You could call transwomen "absolutely-no-different-to-women-women" but that wouldn't change the fact that there is a genetic and absolute difference between men and women.

The reason we need to differentiate is because people like you seem to think there is no difference between the sexes. (Which you all know is bollox anyway as if there wasn't, why would anyone need to "transition")

How childish would you need to be to deny there is a difference?

Gruffalux

LiquidZeb wrote: »

Transwomen are women. It's in the name. Tbh I don't see why we have to differentiate

Do you differentiate when it comes to sex and intimate relationship between transwomen and women?

LiquidZeb

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Horseflies are horses then too are they?

You could call transwomen "absolutely-no-different-to-women-women" but that wouldn't change the fact that there is a genetic and absolute difference between men and women.

The reason we need to differentiate is because people like you seem to think there is no difference between the sexes. (Which you all know is bollox anyway as if there wasn't, why would anyone need to "transition")

How childish would you need to be to deny there is a difference?

Unless you're going to genetically examine every person you encounter how will you know their gender? Also it's not transitioning it's them becoming their true gender, at least that's how I feel about it

LiquidZeb

Gruffalox wrote: »

Do you differentiate when it comes to sex and intimate relationship between transwomen and women?

That's a bit probing isn't it?

randomchild

LiquidZeb wrote: »

Transwomen are women. It's in the name. Tbh I don't see why we have to differentiate

In your own statement just before the word women is the word trans. You yourself have differentiated between the two by using it. It's not hard.

Gruffalux

Another way of looking at that area is - is there any difference between homosexuality and heterosexuality?
I am asking because sex is being argued basically as fluid or changeable and these kind of issues are fundamentals.

LiquidZeb

randomchild wrote: »

In your own statement just before the word women is the word trans. You yourself have differentiated between the two by using it. It's not hard.

That was just to differentiate so the post would make sense. You're just playing word games now

Gruffalux

LiquidZeb wrote: »

That's a bit probing isn't it?

A lot of things are probing. Or personal. Intimate. Up close. Affecting deeply. A lot of what women are being asked is probing in its essence. It is quite intimate. And yes I suppose a lot of it is around genitals and fundamentals like sex and sexuality.

JL555

LiquidZeb wrote: »

Unless you're going to genetically examine every person you encounter how will you know their gender? Also it's not transitioning it's them becoming their true gender, at least that's how I feel about it

It's pretty much easy to spot which of the two genders somebody is, no need for a test.

Also, just to add, if a test was to be done on every person, science would provide the answer and stop all the confusion.

One eyed Jack

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I would hope that if my daughter felt uncomfortable in a changing room because there was someone in a female only area who she suspected to be a man, she would be able to report it without fear of being a transphobe.

But if self identification is acceptable justification for men to enter women's spaces, she apparently has no comeback as by some odd people's metric, that is transphobia

I would too tbh, of course that’s entirely up to you how your daughter might react in the first place, and secondly it’s beyond your control how anyone else would react to your daughter making a complaint.

She has comeback of course, as does the woman whom your daughter made a complaint against because she felt intimidated on the basis that the woman didn’t look like she thought a woman should look.

Or did you forego the possibility that your daughters suspicions could be unfounded and you’ve just managed to humiliate a woman for no good reason?

Gruffalux

LiquidZeb wrote: »

Unless you're going to genetically examine every person you encounter how will you know their gender? Also it's not transitioning it's them becoming their true gender, at least that's how I feel about it

And then what about the many many detransitioners? What is happening for them? If transitioning is becoming their true gender what is detransitioning? On the reddit detrans forum for example there are thousands of detransitioners. It is a very busy place. Many are quite upset. And badly affected physically.

AbusesToilets

Gruffalox wrote: »

And then what about the many many detransitioners? What is happening for them? If transitioning is becoming their true gender what is detransitioning? On the reddit detrans forum for example there are thousands of detransitioners. It is a very busy place. Many are quite upset. And badly affected physically.

Somewhat inevitable given those who go through the process are suffering from a serious mental issue. Their feelings of disconnection from their biological sex are rooted in their brains, not their genitals.

Quantum Erasure

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I wouldn’t call her a transphobe, it’s not a term I’d use against anyone. I know what I would call her though.

what would you call her?

Gruffalux

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Somewhat inevitable given those who go through the process are suffering from a serious mental issue. Their feelings of disconnection from their biological sex are rooted in their brains, not their genitals.

I am not interested in the mental health issue for anyone. Mental health issues occur for anyone.

One eyed Jack

volchitsa wrote: »

If they have male genitals, yes.
If they just have short hair and tiny breasts, no.

It's really not rocket science.

No, it’s not rocket science, but you seem to want to make it rocket science by suggesting that your discomfort with someone else’s physical appearance should be justification for causing them to feel humiliated so you can feel more comfortable.

You didn’t say anything about whether they had male genitals, short hair or tiny breasts, you said that if a woman suspected the other person wasn’t a woman.

That’s entirely based upon their perception of what constitutes a woman’s physical appearance, and if the other persons physical appearance doesn’t conform to the woman’s expectations of what a woman is, the other person should be humiliated, and the person who humiliated them should bear no consequences for their actions.

That’s precisely what you’re suggesting. Does the presence or absence of a thigh gap constitute whether or not a person is perceived as a woman? Back dimples? Sufficiently sized breasts? Two eyes?

I hope you can grasp by now how ridiculous your suggestion sounds.

One eyed Jack

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

what would you call her?

An idiot.

And that would be after my eye was done rolling back in it’s socket.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

LiquidZeb wrote: »

Transwomen are women. It's in the name. Tbh I don't see why we have to differentiate

No, transgender women are transgender women.

LiquidZeb

LiquidZeb wrote: »

Unless you're going to genetically examine every person you encounter how will you know their gender? Also it's not transitioning it's them becoming their true gender, at least that's how I feel about it

Despite what some may tell you.... It's very rare that you wouldn't be able to tell a woman or a man from a transwoman or transman.

Also, are we back to allowing gender and sex to be intertwined again?

You guys can have gender if you like. If there is an infinite amount of genders meaning an infinite amount of things, it's just pointless. Couldn't give a **** about what someone identifies as. True gender? Biggest load of bollocks

Keep biological sex and gender separate. The word gender has already been ruined.

Gruffalux

Hmmmmm. Here we are talking around and around sex identity or supposed reality and yet no one ever answers the most basic of real sex questions. All cerebral stuff, no nuts and bolts honesty. I feel like the kid whose parents won't tell them the truth about things. Pffft. I'm off to bed.

oyvey

Deleted User wrote: »

Despite what some may tell you.... It's very rare that you wouldn't be able to tell a woman or a man from a transwoman or transman.

Also, are we back to allowing gender and sex to be intertwined again?

You guys can have gender if you like. If there is an infinite amount of genders meaning an infinite amount of things, it's just pointless. Couldn't give a **** about what someone identifies as. True gender? Biggest load of bollocks

Keep biological sex and gender separate. The word gender has already been ruined.

Seems like it doesn't matter what they get. You could give up the words man and woman and what they mean, and create two new words for biological male and female...it would just be a matter of time before they come demanding to have those words redefined as well.

We need to keep male/female and man/woman as it is simply so we can understand each other. Earlier in this thread someone asked someone else if they were a woman. The responded that no, they are not a woman....in the context of this conversation I now have no idea how to interpret that response, and that's basically the crux of the problem here.

Dante7

LiquidZeb wrote: »

Transwomen are women. It's in the name. Tbh I don't see why we have to differentiate

Why we have to differentiate? Well here's just a few reasons. Can you honestly answer yes to these questions?

If you are a lesbian would you date a transwoman with a penis?
If you were a female athlete would you be happy to compete against any biological male who just rocked up and said he was a woman?
Would you be happy for your daughter to have to share a changing room with any bloke who self-id'd as a woman?

Girly Gal

Deleted User wrote: »

Despite what some may tell you.... It's very rare that you wouldn't be able to tell a woman or a man from a transwoman or transman.

Also, are we back to allowing gender and sex to be intertwined again?

You guys can have gender if you like. If there is an infinite amount of genders meaning an infinite amount of things, it's just pointless. Couldn't give a **** about what someone identifies as. True gender? Biggest load of bollocks

Keep biological sex and gender separate. The word gender has already been ruined.

I wouldn't agree totally that it's easy to spot transwomen or transwomen, sure some are easy to spot, but, others do not stand out. It's likely you may even have passed a trans person on the street without realizing it.

LiquidZeb

Dante7 wrote: »

Why we have to differentiate? Well here's just a few reasons. Can you honestly answer yes to these questions?

If you are a lesbian would you date a transwoman with a penis?
If you were a female athlete would you be happy to compete against any biological male who just rocked up and said he was a woman?
Would you be happy for your daughter to have to share a changing room with any bloke who self-id'd as a woman?

Well the first is down to personal preference for the lesbian in question. The second is a simple matter of the athlete picking up the pace and the third is just a dogwhistle.