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J. K. Rowling is cancelled because she is a T.E.R.F [ADMIN WARNING IN POST #1]

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    #2192
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Stark wrote: »
    You can ignore the gender studies twits with their glorified arts degrees for sure. I do also. But I do respect the opinions of real professionals who deal with this stuff.

    The professionals are not immune from influence from the gender studies twits unfortunately. Nor are they in a position to alter reality.


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    #2193
    Stark
    Registered Users Posts: 20,998 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    The professionals are not immune from influence from the gender studies twits unfortunately. Nor are they in a position to alter reality.

    And what are your qualifications in all of this? Is your opinion really worth more than someone who treats transgender patients on a regular basis?


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    #2194
    CrankyHaus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,281 ✭✭✭CrankyHaus


    Stark wrote: »
    Sex and gender are distinct concepts that just happen to be used interchangeably in common speech. This is de facto accepted in the medical community by people who deal with gender dysphoria.

    This whole debate reminds me of the abortion debate where you have shrill fanatics shouting loudly from both sides, but behind it all there is long established medical best practice and people who know exactly what they're talking about as they deal with the issues on a regular basis. And they accept the reality of gender dysphoria/transgender experience and the distinction between biological sex and gender identity.


    It's completely different. Medical best practice on abortion was far firmer and longer established. Obstetrics and Gynaecology are disciplines based on physical science. Psychiatry occupies a middle ground between neurology and psychology, with much more room for nebulous ideas influenced by the dominant culture of the day to be accepted best practice.



    The classic example of this was Homosexuality being negatively classified within DSM into the 1970s until the later revision of DSM III.



    In addition Psychiatry defined what we now call Gender Dysphoria as a Disorder until DSM V in 2013.


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    #2195
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,952 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Gruffalox wrote: »
    It is often the angle taken. Biological denial is a bit issue for me. The bare faced controverting of reality.
    It is just people who disregard the rights of women or men to sex based protection always keep throwing the line - so ya think all trans people are rapists, do ya, do ya, do ya!! Ya do! Ya do! We all knew it!


    If biological denial and bare faced controverting of reality are an issue for you, then you’re going to have terrible issues arguing about things such as rights and sex based protections because those are argued for in law, which is socially constructed in the interests of creating and maintaining a civilised society.

    How do you imagine women’s rights came about in Western society in the first place? Was it the women burning their bras, or was it a couple of old farts in wigs and robes who agreed among themselves that it seems only fair?


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    #2196
    Stark
    Registered Users Posts: 20,998 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    I'm not claiming that psychiatry is not an evolving field with a lot of challenges. They still know more than the man in the pub. Gender dysphoria may not have officially made it into DSM V until 2013 but the medical community were dealing with transgender patients long before 2013 and making observations on the results of transition treatment vs no transition treatment.


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    #2197
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Stark wrote: »
    And what are your qualifications in all of this? Is your opinion really worth more than someone who treats transgender patients on a regular basis?
    The treatmemt approach in affirming a transgender persons preferred gender via creating a legal fiction which everyone is expected to play along with may currently be the preferred method but it doesn't change objective biological reality. You can't force people to believe things when all the evidence points to the contrary.


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    #2198
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,952 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    The treatmemt approach in affirming a transgender persons preferred gender via creating a legal fiction which everyone is expected to play along with may currently be the preferred method but it doesn't change objective biological reality. You can't force people to believe things when all the evidence points to the contrary.


    The legislation doesn’t aspire to change biology, it simply aspires to change society.

    It’s true that in spite of the insurmountable amount of evidence presented that Irish law and human rights law is not determined or defined by popular consensus and nobody has a right of free speech, some people still believe a crazy amount of nonsense.


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    #2199
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    The legislation doesn’t aspire to change biology, it simply aspires to change society.
    Well that is a relief to be sure, although there are many who won't thank you for making that distinction.


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    #2200
    CtevenSrowder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,909 ✭✭✭CtevenSrowder


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    Well that is a relief to be sure, although there are many who won't thank you for making that distinction.

    Precisely, which is why endless pages of this thread have been taken up trying to show people how trans-woman aren't women. They are trans-women. And there is nothing wrong with that.


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    #2201
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    CtevenSrowder wrote: »
    Precisely, which is why endless pages of this thread have been taken up trying to show people how trans-woman aren't women. They are trans-women. And there is nothing wrong with that.
    There is a problem with that in that it potentially prevents them accessing women only spaces...round and round we go..


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    #2202
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,952 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    Well that is a relief to be sure, although there are many who won't thank you for making that distinction.


    Oh I know that much, but the difference between them and I is that I own what I’ve said and I take full and ultimate responsibility for what I say and the consequences of saying it, as opposed to some people who imagine they can say what they like about who they like with impunity, and still attempt to claim that they’re the real victims of discrimination! :pac:

    Ahh, the whole thing kinda reminds me of some people within the Catholic Church who imagine their position gives them carte blanche to say whatever they like about whoever they don’t like, and if anyone calls them on it, they claim they’re being oppressed.


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    #2203
    Stark
    Registered Users Posts: 20,998 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Oh I know that much, but the difference between them and i is that I own what I’ve said and I take full and ultimate responsibility for what I say as opposed to some people who imagine they can say what they like about who they like with impunity, and still attempt to claim that they’re the real victims of discrimination! :pac:

    Ahh, the whole thing kinda reminds me of some people within the Catholic Church who imagine their position gives them carte blanche to say whatever they like about whoever they don’t like, and if anyone calls them on it they claim they’re being oppressed.

    That was my first reaction when I read JK Rowling's blog post. The oppression and persecution complex. It reminded me immediately of the marriage equality debates where the likes of Breda O'Brien and Patricia Casey would go TV and be almost in tears talking about how victimised and oppressed they were because people disagreed with their views. How they were being "silenced" despite their privileged positions of having dedicated newspaper column inches and prime time TV slots.

    I'm genuinely sorry for the bad experiences JK Rowling has had in her life. But it was the dregs of the male community who did those things to her. (I'm male myself but have to admit, there are a lot of ****ty men out there). Not the transgender community.

    I also think whoever threatened her with misogynistic abuse for her views were wrong. But that doesn't validate her views. Just as I'm sure folks in Iona probably got a few death threats and genuinely vile abuse for their views, but that didn't make their views any more valid.


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    #2204
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    The difference between the marriage equality debate and this one is that no one got fired or deplatformed for opposing it. I could very well have argued against marriage equality in a conversation in the office canteen (i didnt btw) but wouldinstantly find myself in hot water if I did the same with self ID laws. Things have changed even in that short a time.


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    #2205
    CtevenSrowder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,909 ✭✭✭CtevenSrowder


    Stark wrote: »
    That was my first reaction when I read JK Rowling's blog post. The oppression and persecution complex. It reminded me immediately of the marriage equality debates where the likes of Breda O'Brien and Patricia Casey would go TV and be almost in tears talking about how victimised and oppressed they were because people disagreed with their views. How they were being "silenced" despite their privileged positions of having dedicated newspaper column inches and prime time TV slots.

    I'm genuinely sorry for the bad experiences JK Rowling has had in her life. But it was the dregs of the male community who did those things to her. (I'm male myself but have to admit, there are a lot of ****ty men out there). Not the transgender community.

    I also think whoever threatened her with misogynistic abuse for her views were wrong. But that doesn't validate her views. Just as I'm sure folks in Iona probably got a few death threats and genuinely vile abuse for their views, but that didn't make their views any more valid.

    What views exactly? That biological sex exists, or that men can't become women? They are not 'views' that need validation. They are scientific fact. Unless you mean something different, then I will stand corrected.

    The persecution complex arises due to her being part of this whole "woke" brigade before. They all drown themselves in the idea of being persecuted and victimised all the time. And btw, some trans-people are male, so your
    But it was the dregs of the male community who did those things to her. (I'm male myself but have to admit, there are a lot of ****ty men out there). Not the transgender community.

    comment doesn't really make much sense.


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    #2206
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,701 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Thats not true

    https://www.broadsheet.ie/2014/12/10/anything-good-in-the-kilkenny-journal/

    Yes, I didn't mean nobody made the argument about SSM and adoption, I meant that's nothing like the argument I'm making. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
    image.png



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    #2207
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,952 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    CtevenSrowder wrote: »
    What views exactly? That biological sex exists, or that men can't become women? They are not 'views' that need validation. They are scientific fact. Unless you mean something different, then I will stand corrected.



    Science is based upon validating theories which if there is a broad consensus, they are regarded as scientific fact. Being recognised as scientific fact doesn’t mean they aren’t subject to change as new evidence presents itself through scientific inquiry. That’s why knowledge of sex determination was for a long time based upon what could be seen with the naked eye, because we simply didn’t have the tools developed yet to be able to look beyond that and start understanding processes like genetics, endocrinology and so on.

    CtevenSrowder wrote: »
    The persecution complex arises due to her being part of this whole "woke" brigade before. They all drown themselves in the idea of being persecuted and victimised all the time.


    I dunno if that’s where it arises from tbh, I’d characterise her attitude as indicative of a personality disorder, a victimhood complex for which she is more than capable of writing an appealing and compelling narrative. Ironically she started her career in Amnesty International, but that’s since become a similar shìt show of an organisation mired in identity politics -


    J.K. Rowling described her experience working at Amnesty International


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    #2208
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    The legislation doesn’t aspire to change biology, it simply aspires to change society.
    This sentence has become more sinister on re-reading. Encouraging a society to break the link between the hard sciences (such a biology) and reality cannot fail to have wider reaching consequences, foreseen or not.


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    #2209
    CtevenSrowder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,909 ✭✭✭CtevenSrowder


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Science is based upon validating theories which if there is a broad consensus, they are regarded as scientific fact. Being recognised as scientific fact doesn’t mean they aren’t subject to change as new evidence presents itself through scientific inquiry. That’s why knowledge of sex determination was for a long time based upon what could be seen with the naked eye, because we simply didn’t have the tools developed yet to be able to look beyond that and start understanding processes like genetics, endocrinology and so on.

    I'm fully aware of science works thanks. I'm involved in the field myself. None of that invalidates what I said. What is defined as a female and/or woman won't (or shouldn't) change just because a minority say they feel like one, or to suit ones political World-view. I'm sure you already fully agree with this.
    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    I dunno if that’s where it arises from tbh, I’d characterise her attitude as indicative of a personality disorder, a victimhood complex for which she is more than capable of writing an appealing and compelling narrative. Ironically she started her career in Amnesty International, but that’s since become a similar shìt show of an organisation mired in identity politics -


    J.K. Rowling described her experience working at Amnesty International

    Well who knows where it arises. The point is there is element within leftism that endures almost exclusively on presenting oneself as a victim and as being persecuted. Fully agree with you re Amnesty.


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    #2210
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Its not really though. Its the same fear mongering about abuse that was used and is now being used again.

    At what stage of the transition process does a transgender women lose her male biology and the patterns of criminality that are attached to it? When does this blessed event take place?


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    #2211
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    CtevenSrowder wrote: »
    Allowing biological men into women's spaces isn't the right option for a lot of women, yet here we are.

    Yup. Lol, silly women.

    We are told that transgender women are at risk in men’s facilities but women aren’t allowed to question how our safety could be compromised without being called bigots and fearmongers? How does that work?


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    #2212
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Stark wrote: »
    Sex and gender are distinct concepts that just happen to be used interchangeably in common speech. This is de facto accepted in the medical community by people who deal with gender dysphoria.

    This whole debate reminds me of the abortion debate where you have shrill fanatics shouting loudly from both sides, but behind it all there is long established medical best practice and people who know exactly what they're talking about as they deal with the issues on a regular basis. And they accept the reality of gender dysphoria/transgender experience and the distinction between biological sex and gender identity.

    You can ignore the gender studies twits with their glorified arts degrees for sure. I do also. But I do respect the opinions of real professionals who deal with this stuff.

    A lot of gender identity academics is really regressive and quite conservative. Somebody wondering if their kids want to be a girl because he like pink or a girl wants to be a boy because she like “boy” things. I find a lot of it very old-fashioned and sexist at its heart, the opposite of progressive.

    Try this. Try and find a definition for man or woman that doesn’t mention biological sex. In the absence of being allowed to mention biological sex, what takes its place?


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    #2213
    Stark
    Registered Users Posts: 20,998 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    This sentence has become more sinister on re-reading. Encouraging a society to break the link between the hard sciences (such a biology) and reality cannot fail to have wider reaching consequences, foreseen or not.

    Sinister how? Civilisation and law has very little to do with biology. If we were just animals, there wouldn't be an issue. No-one cares what gender my cat is for instance because there isn't a whole system of laws and societal expectations that define acceptable behaviours for animals based on their gender. There is for humans and that system should be inclusive for humans with different gender identities.


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    #2214
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Stark wrote: »
    And what are your qualifications in all of this? Is your opinion really worth more than someone who treats transgender patients on a regular basis?

    The NHS recently changed their guidance on puberty blockers to “the effects are unknown as no long-term studies done” from “puberty blockers are fully reversible”. The health service of the UK made a false claim, one that could have reassured parents and minors that taking these drugs was okay, when plenty of people were pointing out that the data was not there. That is incredibly unethical.

    Oh and my credentials, as that’s apparently important. Far above layperson knowledge of bioethics and drug-testing.


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    #2215
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Stark wrote: »
    Sinister how? Civilisation and law has very little to do with biology. If we were just animals, there wouldn't be an issue. No-one cares what gender my cat is for instance.

    but we are animals and gender and sex are inextricably linked no matter how much the postmodernists attempt to bamboozle society.


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    #2216
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Stark wrote: »

    I'm genuinely sorry for the bad experiences JK Rowling has had in her life. But it was the dregs of the male community who did those things to her. (I'm male myself but have to admit, there are a lot of ****ty men out there). Not the transgender community.

    Transgender women are inescapably part of the male community. So, their criminality will follow male patterns, not female patterns.


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    #2217
    Stark
    Registered Users Posts: 20,998 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    suicide_circus wrote:
    but we are animals and gender and sex are inextricably linked no matter how much the postmodernists attempt to bamboozle society.

    Linked yes, but that doesn't mean the link is perfect, or everyone fits a nice simple model of the world. Brains and bodies can and do develop differently. We do know from disastrous attempts to prematurely treat intersex people by assigning them one gender or another before knowing which way brain development has gone that the brain becomes hardwired to see itself as one gender or another, regardless of what body the person has. I don't see why it's no hard to accept a reality where some people's brains have gone a different development route to their sex organs.


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    #2218
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Stark wrote: »
    Linked yes, but that doesn't mean the link is perfect, or everyone fits a nice simple model of the world. Brains and bodies can and do develop differently.

    Oh god, on we onto “ladybrains” now?


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    #2219
    Stark
    Registered Users Posts: 20,998 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    Oh god, on we onto “ladybrains” now?

    I get it, you hate trans people. You don't need to labour the point.


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    #2220
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Stark wrote: »
    I get it, you hate trans people. You don't need to labour the point.

    Why are people so quick to lash out on this topic. Nothing of substance to say, everything can be easily countered and so you lash out. Knock yourself out, it only shows up your paucity of knowledge on the topic.

    Oh, and I’ll post as often as I like. Ta.


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    #2221
    Stark
    Registered Users Posts: 20,998 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    Why are people so quick to lash out on this topic. Nothing of substance to say, everything can be easily countered and so you lash out. Knock yourself out, it only shows up your paucity of knowledge on the topic.

    Oh, and I’ll post as often as I like. Ta.

    There's a lot of people on this thread who I've been disagreeing with but I can respect that it's just a difference of views, or that some people are uncomfortable with the world becoming too "woke" or whatever.

    But it just seems to post after post of venomous bile from you.


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