Leo Varadkar post Taoiseach

IAMAMORON

I am happy for a cease fire , it is Christmas eve ffs, it only seems right?

Kermit.de.frog

What would it say about the Irish people to put a political party back in that had this country on it's knees and begging the IMF (like fcuking Somalia) to put them back in?

What would it say? That you deserve everything you get?

Remember what our country was reduced to in 2010, countless lives destroyed, mass emigration, bankruptcy - and you would put that crowd back in?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiKZth5iBz4

_Kaiser_

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Remember what our country was reduced to in 2010, countless lives destroyed, mass emigration, bankruptcy - and you would put that crowd back in?

Remember when in 2011 we were promised a new approach, "new politics" but got the same cronyism, corruption, waste and incompetence as before?

Remember when we saw tens thousands of ordinary people from across all sections of society out protesting because of the mess that was Irish Water and the Siteserv deal?

Remember the multiple Garda scandals that ultimately brought down two commissioners and a minister?

Remember the abuse of a parliamentary majority to railroad legislation through without proper debate?

Remember a TD falling off a swing in a pub and lodging a compo claim despite being out running a race a few weeks later? Remember their infamous radio interview?

Remember how already serious problems in health care, housing supply and cost, insurance etc developed into national crisis - despite being pretty much back to full employment and boom times?

Remember how we ended up with a lame duck Government in 2016, led by a social media and spin obsessed empty suit who even his own party didn't want at the helm - all so his predecessor could set ego-driven personal "records"?

And you would put that crowd back in??

Kermit.de.frog

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Remember when in 2011 we were promised a new approach, "new politics" but got the same cronyism, corruption, waste and incompetence as before?

Remember when we saw tens thousands of ordinary people from across all sections of society out protesting because of the mess that was Irish Water and the Siteserv deal?

Remember the multiple Garda scandals that ultimately brought down two commissioners and a minister?

Remember the abuse of a parliamentary majority to railroad legislation through without proper debate?

Remember a TD falling off a swing in a pub and lodging a compo claim despite being out running a race a few weeks later? Remember their infamous radio interview?

Remember how already serious problems in health care, housing supply and cost, insurance etc developed into national crisis - despite being pretty much back to full employment and boom times?

Remember how we ended up with a lame duck Government in 2016, led by a social media and spin obsessed empty suit who even his own party didn't want at the helm - all so his predecessor could set ego-driven personal "records"?

And you would put that crowd back in??

You must not remember 2010.

Perhaps you long for a reminder? Hey, if you want bankruptcy (and actual bankruptcy this time given our quota with the IMF is gone) and deprivation, starvation so be it.

Compared to the small nonsense you mention? I'll take the current government, thanks.

Boredstiff666

Leo has killed Ireland with the Brits for years to come.

What you get besides Leo is just more of the same. Ireland needs another direction and new people. They are so 'left' they just keep spinning in circles going nowhere.

When you are lost you try new roads to see if there is a way out or if things are better. You dont keep going around the roundabout arguing about who had the map upside down.

Doing the same over and over again is insanity.

Phoebas

People have very short memories.

It wasn't long ago that Enda Kenny was the Worst. Taoiseach. Ever. Before that it was Brian Cowan. And Bertie.
Now of course it's Varadkar and after him it'll be the next guy.

In reality, in the longer term, Varadkar will probably be remembered reasonably well. Some wins on social issues and his handling of Brexit (assuming no major setbacks there).
He probably won't get too much credit for the economic recovery or too much blame for the housing crisis.

That all assumes that he loses the next election, but that's far from certain.

Loafing Oaf

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

What would it say about the Irish people to put a political party back in that had this country on it's knees and begging the IMF (like fcuking Somalia) to put them back in?

What would it say? That you deserve everything you get?

Remember what our country was reduced to in 2010, countless lives destroyed, mass emigration, bankruptcy - and you would put that crowd back in?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiKZth5iBz4

Well the policies of the FF/PD governments were very popular at the time. And the opposition parties were advocating much the same only more so...

Jinglejangle69

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Well the policies of the FF/PD governments were very popular at the time. And the opposition parties were advocating much the same only more so...

Here are a few extracts from the responses by Richard Bruton to every budget speech delivered by Brian Cowen as Minister for Finance. There is plenty of other stuff in the speeches about public sector reform and general waste. But the theme i'm highlighting here is competitiveness, the export industry, the very foundations the Celtic Tiger (1987-2001) was built on, and the impact of the construction bubble.

Budget 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Bruton
There is a worrying complacency in Government about the enterprise sector. Few people realise that in the past four years, employment in the exposed sector of our economy has been in sharp decline. The rate of job losses has been more than double that of the mid-90s.
We are facing a tough time in export markets. Since May 2002, export prices have fallen by 15%. Companies trading and competing have had to tighten their costs by 15% but the utilities, stealth taxes, rates and all the other burdens the State puts on those companies have increased by 27%. There is no tightening of belts when it comes to those delivering those services but the companies which have to compete in export markets are feeling the squeeze. Companies are leaving these shores to go to cheaper environments.

Parliamentary Debates (Official Report - Unrevised) Dáil Éireann Wednesday, 1 December 2004 - Page 4

Budget 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Bruton
We need to examine what needs to be done to proof ourselves against changing and hardening external environments. No one can have illusions about the change that has happened in the external environment in which Ireland seeks to compete. There is a sharp contrast between the economy Deputy Quinn handed over to Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats in 1997 and the economy the Minister will soon hand back to the rainbow coalition. Superficially, there are many similarities. Employment is increasing rapidly and the budget surplus is healthy, but there are also signs of fragility which cannot be ignored. Approximately 40% of jobs in companies supported by the industrial agencies has been lost since 2000. Many have been replaced but not enough to prevent a sharp decline. Ireland has lost share in its export markets three years in a row. Our export performance is at its worst since 1974 and it is less than a quarter of what is was in the late 1990s.
The problem is that while the construction sector can absorb people and conceal problems in underlying trading sectors, that cannot go on forever. As a small, open economy, we need to survive on the basis of competitive businesses and that is not happening. Ireland’s enterprise strategy was once the envy of emerging countries but it is feeling the strain and the cracks are showing.

Parliamentary Debates (Official Report - Unrevised) Dáil Éireann Wednesday, 7 December 2005 - Page 4

Budget 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Bruton
The Government is increasing spending at a rate 50% faster than the growth of national income. Taxes are rising as a result. This year, the Government is continuing the trend by budgeting to increase spending by 11.5%. To put this in perspective, an ordinary worker will be lucky to obtain an increase of4%. The surplus has been cut back at a time when the economy is experiencing pressure on the prices front and when SSIAs are coming on stream. Spending is increasing far faster than national income and tax revenues and this is posing a threat. Many commentators warned the Government about inflation before the budget was put together and I believe they will now be of the opinion that we are on dangerous ground.
The Government has doubled its dependence on the construction sector to support its revenue. A total of 25% of every tax euro spent by the Government comes from the construction sector. We are not in a strong position; we are, in fact, in a vulnerable position.
The real question is whether the Government has done enough to build the capability of the economy to withstand the real pressures under which it is about to come. Those pressures do not merely revolve around the possible slowdown in the housing market; they relate to the relentless march of competition that is coming our way. Our competitiveness has declined in each of the past five years. In the same period, our share of export markets and the level of manufacturing employment have fallen. Some 50% of the jobs that existed in IDA Ireland and Enterprise Ireland industries five years ago have disappeared.

Parliamentary Debates (Official Report - Unrevised) Dáil Éireann Wednesday, 6 December 2006 - Page 1

Budget 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Bruton
I give the Minister one cheer for some reform of stamp duty but I do not endorse his housing strategy that is failing so many people. Even the Central Bank, hardly the source of radical thinking, tells us that half the people in the country cannot afford to buy a house and that this is unsustainable. The tragedy is that the bill for high cost Government has come home to roost, not just for taxpayers but for those trying to compete in the real economy.
The Government and its policies accounted for half of all inflation during the past seven years. In addition, it loaded stealth taxes equivalent to €3,500 per annum onto every family. Inflation in sectors controlled by the Government is running at two and a half times the rate that obtains in equivalent sectors in other eurozone countries. Ireland has become a high-cost country primarily as a result of Government action. I will provide one statistic which, more than any other, illustrates this fact. Price increases in sectors controlled by Government during the past seven years stand at 45%. Manufacturing companies trying to export goods abroad — the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Martin, will be aware of this — have seen their prices fall by 17%. That is the contrast.

Parliamentary Debates (Official Report - Unrevised) Dáil Éireann Wednesday, 5 December 2007 - Page 3

There have been many exercises in revisionism by this government in recent times claiming that the opposition were just as bad as the government if not worse (as Willie O’Dea suggested this week). They claim that nobody saw it coming, or that the opposition never told them to stop, or that the problems are all down to external factors etc…

These extracts show that the alternative Minister for Finance was very much on the ball with his warnings about the economy. He outlined clearly why we were on the wrong track. He warned consistently and relentlessly about the erosion of competitiveness, how this erosion caused the export sector in this country to go into decline and how this decline was masked by a property boom. This is the problem we face today in a nutshell. This economically illiterate government complacently believed that the fundamentals were sound when they so obviously weren't. Richard Bruton saw it coming a mile out but they weren't interested.


Bit of googling and found this on politics.ie.

Interesting read.

James Brown

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

What would it say about the Irish people to put a political party back in that had this country on it's knees and begging the IMF (like fcuking Somalia) to put them back in?

What would it say? That you deserve everything you get?

Remember what our country was reduced to in 2010, countless lives destroyed, mass emigration, bankruptcy - and you would put that crowd back in?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiKZth5iBz4

They were/are good enough for Fine Gael. Imagine how disappointed people are who voted FG and got FG/FF?

Labour In opposition were the only ones calling for restraint in housing and on selling off land.

charlie14

In 2011 FG had a real chance to be different, but what we got was just more of the same. Cronyism, waste of public finances and Dáil Eireann being run like a Politburo.

2016 prior to the general election, FG were doing what many FG supporters are doing on here now. Pointing back at FF pre 2011 as the reason to put FG back in power in 2016.
What they didn`t see, and which some here are failing to see, is that the public were not looking back so much at pre 2011, they were looking at what happened under FG`s watch 2011 - 2016 and were not particularly impressed.

We are now in the reign of Varadkar where we have a housing and homeless crisis, a health service falling to pieces and projects from public funds like the Children`s Hospital and public broadband at many multiples of their original estimates and still no final figure in sight.
We are shortly going into another General Election after 9 years of FG governments where we have not just had the same old same old of cronyism and waste but FG TD`s like Bailey, Farrell and Murphy acting with feelings of entitlement that would have put FF to shame in their heyday.
If posters here think pointing back at FF nine years ago is going to cloud any of that in voters memories when it didn`t work four years ago, then I`m afraid they will be sadly mistaken.

Millicently

I don't think he has a long term political career ahead of him, certainly not in Ireland. I don't believe that the voters would have elected him. It seems to me that FG had a choice between stale male and pale Catholic family man Coveney or gay, mixed race and young Varadker. They were poor choices. Absolutely nothing wrong with being gay and or mixed race, but the problem was they went with optics and that hasn't worked. He knows he won't be reelected so all he has to do is sit back and say the right things to get his feet under the table in Brussels.



Don't get me wrong, I hate the idea of Coveney as his most likely successor. I've no idea who I'll vote for, I think most people feel the same way so it wouldn't surprise me there's a very low turnout in the next election or a huge surge in votes for independents. MeHole Martin is a non entity.

Jinglejangle69

charlie14 wrote: »

In 2011 FG had a real chance to be different, but what we got was just more of the same. Cronyism, waste of public finances and Dáil Eireann being run like a Politburo.

2016 prior to the general election, FG were doing what many FG supporters are doing on here now. Pointing back at FF pre 2011 as the reason to put FG back in power in 2016.
What they didn`t see, and which some here are failing to see, is that the public were not looking back so much at pre 2011, they were looking at what happened under FG`s watch 2011 - 2016 and were not particularly impressed.

We are now in the reign of Varadkar where we have a housing and homeless crisis, a health service falling to pieces and projects from public funds like the Children`s Hospital and public broadband at many multiples of their original estimates and still no final figure in sight.
We are shortly going into another General Election after 9 years of FG governments where we have not just had the same old same old of cronyism and waste but FG TD`s like Bailey, Farrell and Murphy acting with feelings of entitlement that would have put FF to shame in their heyday.
If posters here think pointing back at FF nine years ago is going to cloud any of that in voters memories when it didn`t work four years ago, then I`m afraid they will be sadly mistaken.

Oh yeah 2011-2016 the golden years when we had so much money and the IMF weren’t here with handouts to keep the country going from day to day literally.

Yeah we should have built 100s of thousands of social houses with all our money and with thousands of ghosts estates and all our construction workers in Australia and New Zealand.

Sure we had money to fix everything.

We only balanced the books for the first time in 10 years last year but sure we had billions to just build houses for everyone.

Simple really wonder why no one thought of that.

Phoebas

charlie14 wrote: »

In 2011 FG had a real chance to be different, but what we got was just more of the same.

This line gets trotted out a lot, completely disregarding that the previous government has us bankrupt, going cap in hand for a bailout.

Short memories are one thing, but these are selective memories.

Suckit

How much did FF squander/overspend in the 14 years that they were in charge?
How much have FG squandered/overspent in the 9 years so far that they have been in charge?

Beasty

Suckit wrote: »

How much did FF squander/overspend in the 14 years that they were in charge?
How much have FG squandered/overspent in the 9 years so far that they have been in charge?

Well I don't think there was any of the family silver left when FG took office....

Jinglejangle69

Suckit wrote: »

How much did FF squander/overspend in the 14 years that they were in charge?
How much have FG squandered/overspent in the 9 years so far that they have been in charge?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/irish-news/state-waste-of-10bn-in-10-years-26326371.html


Article from 2009.

“More than €1bn of taxpayers' money has been wasted every year since FF came to power 10 years ago, a Sunday Independent investigation reveals.”

“A list of failed projects, delayed works, bloated bureaucracy and poor management have all led to more than €10bn being squandered in the last 10 years”

Cant wait to see the the usual posters worm out of this one so it doesn’t show anyone other than FG in a bad light.

Suckit

Beasty wrote: »

Well I don't think there was any of the family silver left when FG took office....

They've been doing a decent job of spending whatever is there.

Jinglejangle69

Suckit wrote: »

They've been doing a decent job of spending whatever is there.

Awaiting your reply to my link.

Can’t wait to see what you say.

Suckit

^^
It was a genuine question.

National Childrens Hospital - €2+ Billion (Roughly 1.5 Billion higher than the original estimate) The most expensive hospital in the world.
National Broadband Plan - €3+ Billion (Roughly 6 times more than the original estimate)
Water Meters went over by almost €200 million IIRC
There are other questionable spends, (€1 Billion on roughly 5500 houses and €4billion on private rental)
And I have no doubt that plenty more of what they squandered, mismanaged and wasted will come to light at the end of their tenure.

I would like to know as close to the exact figure as is possible for both. I wouldn't think there is much between them.

Jinglejangle69

Suckit wrote: »

^^
It was a genuine question.

National Childrens Hospital - €2+ Billion (Roughly 1.5 Billion higher than the original estimate) The most expensive hospital in the world.
National Broadband Plan - €3+ Billion (Roughly 6 times more than the original estimate)
Water Meters went over by almost €200 million IIRC
There are other questionable spends, (€1 Billion on roughly 5500 houses and €4billion on private rental)
And I have no doubt that plenty more of what they squandered, mismanaged and wasted will come to light at the end of their tenure.

I would like to know as close to the exact figure as is possible for both. I wouldn't think there is much between them.

Haha good one

National broadband plan is 6 times more expensive???

Have you a link to that?

4 billion in private rental?

Have you a link to that?

Spending money on rent for peoole isn’t an overspend, it’s a necessity for the present moment.

What’s this 5500 houses you’re in about?

So basically the only overspend is approx 1.2 billion on the hospital and 200 million on water meters.

Far cry from 10 billion that FF managed.

charlie14

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

Oh yeah 2011-2016 the golden years when we had so much money and the IMF weren’t here with handouts to keep the country going from day to day literally.

Yeah we should have built 100s of thousands of social houses with all our money and with thousands of ghosts estates and all our construction workers in Australia and New Zealand.

Sure we had money to fix everything.

We only balanced the books for the first time in 10 years last year but sure we had billions to just build houses for everyone.

Simple really wonder why no one thought of that.

Is it not time to face the reality that 2011 FG really had a clear road ahead with virtually no opposition, the chance to bury FF for once and ever and they blew it.
In 2016 voters judged them on their 5 years in power and gave them a kicking.
Come the next GE they will judge them on the last 4 years, not on FF 10 years ago.
Talking about FF and pointing to them didn`t work for te GE 4 years ago, do you really think it will work ?

charlie14

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

Haha good one

National broadband plan is 6 times more expensive???

Have you a link to that?

4 billion in private rental?

Have you a link to that?

Spending money on rent for peoole isn’t an overspend, it’s a necessity for the present moment.

What’s this 5500 houses you’re in about?

So basically the only overspend is approx 1.2 billion on the hospital and 200 million on water meters.

Far cry from 10 billion that FF managed.

The nation broadband plan original estimate was 500M.

It is now 3 Billion. 6 times the original estimate and the operator will own the network. Shades of Digicel and that worked out sooo well.


The Water Metering fiasco cost 1 Billion.

The crazy "Conservation Water Grant" cost 200M alone.


The Children`s Hospital. No end in sight of what it will cost at the end of the day.

I do not see it an election slogan of we wasted less Billions in 9 years than FF wasted in 10 winning many votes somehow.

Weepsie

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/irish-news/state-waste-of-10bn-in-10-years-26326371.html


Article from 2009.

“More than €1bn of taxpayers' money has been wasted every year since FF came to power 10 years ago, a Sunday Independent investigation reveals.”

“A list of failed projects, delayed works, bloated bureaucracy and poor management have all led to more than €10bn being squandered in the last 10 years”

Cant wait to see the spin boys worm out of this one so it doesn’t show anyone other than FG in a bad light.

I think most people, except the most ardent FF followers and traditionalists, acknowledge that they were a useless bunch all together, but .they can also see that FG are basically just as useless.

That actavo, or siteserv or whatever Dinnys company get called seem to be win every single major contract going should be enough to cause alarm.

Both FG and FF are in it to grease the wheels for their preferred corporate pals and get some of the scraps themselves. There's probably a few genuine members here and there just trying to do right for their areas, but on a national scale, truly awful. Eoin Murphy, Christ. About the most useless minister I've witnessed in my lifetime.

charlie14

Phoebas wrote: »

This line gets trotted out a lot, completely disregarding that the previous government has us bankrupt, going cap in hand for a bailout.

Short memories are one thing, but these are selective memories.

As I said, if FG think the same old rhetoric that got them nowhere with voters in 2016 is going to have a different result next year then they are trying to redefine insanity.
Especially four years down the line with some of the fcuk ups they have been involved in in the interim.

ChikiChiki

Weepsie wrote: »

I think most people, except the most ardent FF followers and traditionalists, acknowledge that they were a useless bunch all together, but .they can also see that FG are basically just as useless.

That actavo, or siteserv or whatever Dinnys company get called seem to be win every single major contract going should be enough to cause alarm.

Both FG and FF are in it to grease the wheels for their preferred corporate pals and get some of the scraps themselves. There's probably a few genuine members here and there just trying to do right for their areas, but on a national scale, truly awful. Eoin Murphy, Christ. About the most useless minister I've witnessed in my lifetime.

Exactly. See some posters are obviously allied to either party and they just attack the other.

Both parties are as bad as one another in my book. A stain on the country at this stage. Both filled to the brim with corrupt and unethical practices.

Indefensible tbh and you would really want to take a long hard look at yourself if you support either.

IAMAMORON

Suckit wrote: »

^^
It was a genuine question.

National Childrens Hospital - €2+ Billion (Roughly 1.5 Billion higher than the original estimate) The most expensive hospital in the world.
National Broadband Plan - €3+ Billion (Roughly 6 times more than the original estimate)
Water Meters went over by almost €200 million IIRC
There are other questionable spends, (€1 Billion on roughly 5500 houses and €4billion on private rental)
And I have no doubt that plenty more of what they squandered, mismanaged and wasted will come to light at the end of their tenure.

I would like to know as close to the exact figure as is possible for both. I wouldn't think there is much between them.

Waffles. Why bother?

Loafing Oaf

Weepsie wrote: »

I think most people, except the most ardent FF followers and traditionalists, acknowledge that they were a useless bunch all together, but .they can also see that FG are basically just as useless.

'Most people' can see this, yet a majority continue to vote for FF or FG come election time?

BumperD

mattser wrote: »

Not being smart.

Thank you for you for at least conceding that. That we agree on.

Suckit

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

Haha good one
National broadband plan is 6 times more expensive???
Have you a link to that?
4 billion in private rental?
Have you a link to that?
Spending money on rent for peoole isn’t an overspend, it’s a necessity for the present moment.
What’s this 5500 houses you’re in about?
So basically the only overspend is approx 1.2 billion on the hospital and 200 million on water meters.
Far cry from 10 billion that FF managed.

I have no idea why you would blindly support any of them, and of the most recent Leo seems the most pathetic 'leader' to me.
He is not a leader. Barely a doctor (and allegedly that's the only thing he is actually qualified to be).

I am after returning from an excellent Christmas party family/friends and I am a bit beyond tipsy, but willing to search on your behalf.

I used Bing to search for the first answer - https://www.siliconrepublic.com/comms/national-broadband-plan-cost-future
I used Qwant for the second answer - https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/fine-gael-spends-4bn-on-private-rental-landlords-new-figures-reveal-36972122.html
"Spending money on rent for peoole isn’t an overspend, it’s a necessity for the present moment."
No.

Answer number three, I used google - https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/irish-government-spent-almost-1billion-12927035
My maths is very different to yours..
I work it out at roughly €4 Billion - €5 Billion wasted/mismanaged.

You sound like you are saying approx 1.2 billion on the hospital and 200 million on water meters is acceptable.

It's not.

I am off to bed. Goodnight all, and Happy Christmas

Idbatterim

Millicently wrote: »

I don't think he has a long term political career ahead of him, certainly not in Ireland. I don't believe that the voters would have elected him. It seems to me that FG had a choice between stale male and pale Catholic family man Coveney or gay, mixed race and young Varadker. They were poor choices. Absolutely nothing wrong with being gay and or mixed race, but the problem was they went with optics and that hasn't worked. He knows he won't be reelected so all he has to do is sit back and say the right things to get his feet under the table in Brussels.



Don't get me wrong, I hate the idea of Coveney as his most likely successor. I've no idea who I'll vote for, I think most people feel the same way so it wouldn't surprise me there's a very low turnout in the next election or a huge surge in votes for independents. MeHole Martin is a non entity.

oh that snake will be re-elected alright, whether it will be him or Mickey Mouse as Taoiseach, is the question!