Should prisoners be made to contribute to society?

Yurt2

Mark25 wrote: »

It's too easy to talk about prisoners/criminals like they are all the same. There are bog differences between gangland heads, Anglo bankers, sex offenders, drug addicts, middle aged women who end up killing a pedestrian while driving etc.

Prison isn't easy for most people and it shouldn't be but it should be a place where people have a chance to deal with whatever caused them to end up there and in most cases get a chance to have a chance to improve things when they get released.

You will always read about those with 200 convictions or whatever but there are plenty that get out and can make a go of life and "contribute" to life when they get out.

I'm out nearly 6 years now and have been working since, contributing to society and went back to college. Am far from perfect but prison made me change my life for the better, not that I felt like that at the time.

Thanks for your contribution (one we don't get enough of tbh). Good to hear your life is back on track and best of luck for 2020.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Mark25 wrote: »

It's too easy to talk about prisoners/criminals like they are all the same. There are bog differences between gangland heads, Anglo bankers, sex offenders, drug addicts, middle aged women who end up killing a pedestrian while driving etc.

Prison isn't easy for most people and it shouldn't be but it should be a place where people have a chance to deal with whatever caused them to end up there and in most cases get a chance to have a chance to improve things when they get released.

You will always read about those with 200 convictions or whatever but there are plenty that get out and can make a go of life and "contribute" to life when they get out.

I'm out nearly 6 years now and have been working since, contributing to society and went back to college. Am far from perfect but prison made me change my life for the better, not that I felt like that at the time.

Thank you. It’s refreshing to hear the perspective of somebody who has been in prison.

Graces7

And they provide thousands of jobs. Prison officers are just the start...

Tell you what; try it for a few weeks than come back ? Not a bed of roses...

Mark25 wrote: »

The original question doesn't really make sense in that prisoners by definition can't really contribute to society in any major way as the state has decided (probably for a good reason) that they are to be taken out of society by being locked up.

Once that ha[[ens they are in the state's care - not by their own choice 0 and then the state has to look after them and provide accomodation, food and medical services. Its similar for others who the state looks after like those in care, asylum seekers etc. Do you think the State shouldn't provide food, accomodation or medical services for prisoners?

Like someone else asked how would you like to see prisoners "contribute" to society while in prison? Working in the community? Doing charity work?

Kermit.de.frog

onetimecypher wrote: »

They get room and board, at least 3 meals a day, a bed to sleep in, cable TV, gyms, Open University courses @ €6000 pa and MORE welfare and social supports than are available to homeless, low/middle income or indigent people.

Is it not time that CRIMINALS pay for their crimes rather than be paid for them?

DISCUSS

Do what the Americans do - throw them on the street. Can't look after themselves? Not our problem.

s7ryf3925pivug

Dots1982 wrote: »

They do in American. They have to do work and get a very small salary.

More here.. https://www.vox.com/2018/8/24/17768438/national-prison-strike-factory-labor

Yeah. Didn't read the link but John Oliver did a piece in it earlier this year. In the USA the problem is the opposite to here. It is profitable to keep prisoners incarcerated. This appears to be a factor in their huge prison population. Just like I have no doubt that resources are a factor in frequent lenient sentencing and early release in Ireland.

Different people respond to different things. Maybe if the compelled labour could be used in some cases and rehabilitation measures in others, depending on what individuals respond to. Ideally there would be no economic reason for decisions in how individual prisoners are treated either way.

El_Duderino 09

Mark25 wrote: »

Yeah definitely. Most (not all) people in prison don't have much education or didn't finish school. Even with education it can be really hard to get a decent job when you get out. I think education or training (maybe more important) is the best thing you can do in prison. If people are doing something worthwhile they are much more likely to keep their head down and stay out of trouble even in there. Some won't be interested at all but some will and take the opportunity. Iy got me back into "learning" and as I said went to college after getting out.

Thanks for giving your perspective and fair play on going to college and getting a things together.

I never really considered the difference between education and training. I’d treat practical training and theoretical education as the same thing. Is there much opportunity for practical training in prison?

This might be controversial but I think people coming from prison should be well trained and prepared to do work that will keep them away from any need for criminal activity. In a way people in prison should have more focused training than the average person. We know the prison population tend to be less well educated than the average and they’re already in prison so they have already turned to crime. So I’d say it makes sense to absolutely ensure they have a real way to make a decent living when they get out.

It’s not just a matter of compassion, it’s about reducing recidivism and crime (which reduces the number of victims). I imagine there will always be some clowns who will never change and that no reason not to provide those facilities for everyone.

Omackeral

onetimecypher wrote: »

Check via FOI, education, university, open university costs per annum per prison for prisoners @ €6000 per prisoner per annum

Can count on one hand the amount of prisoners I've ever encountered availing of this. Barely any do their Leaving Cert in the school, so wouldn't get too worked up about university.

onetimecypher wrote: »

Visit any hospital (particularly near a prison) and watch prisoners being escorted directly to doctors/treatment to the detriment of law abiding citizens

Incorrect. They wait like anyone else. They also have appointments so arrive just ahead of their meeeting. Quite often, prisoners are held offside in other waiting rooms or on cellular vans and only come through when called. Furthermore, the closer to a hospital a prison is means the hospital staff are far more used to having them and it's just run of the mill.

onetimecypher wrote: »

Ask about dental/psychological/psychology/educational etc services supplied in prisons that are not available to general public

AND contrary to public belief NONE of the above can be taken away, because the powers that be are too afraid to

All prison services like doctor, dentists etc are available through various schemes outside ie medical card.

onetimecypher wrote: »

If a prisoner gets 10yrs, by just arriving at the prison his sentence is cut to 7.5yrs (used to be for good conduct, but PC judges now say it is guaranteed) and watch them request 33% remission which is always granted, so headline sentence of 10yrs now becomes 6.7yrs.

Absolutely wrong information. Just wrong. 1/3 remission is extremely rare. It is not "always guaranteed" so don't know why you wrote that. It's a lie.

I've worked in prisons for the past 12 years so I've an idea what I'm talking about.

end of the road

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Do what the Americans do - throw them on the street. Can't look after themselves? Not our problem.

so what services would we be cutting or even removing, how much of a tax increase would there be, to pay for this idea?
because pay a hell of a lot is what we likely would be doing if this nonsense was implemented.

pablo128

NasserShammaz wrote: »

Boo fu#kin hoo

Occupational hazard for those that are sentenced the 1 in a hundred time. Make them break rocks forces long g as the law allows no remission...
If your on your 30th conviction the I'm addressing my issues bull**** is just the next level poverty defence vomited up when the judge is there. Or some cnut like Martin nolan is in the chair. Scum is scum

Prisoners can and do refuse to work in prison if they don't want to. Take the remission away and the prison would be wrecked in no time.

paleoperson

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Do what the Americans do - throw them on the street. Can't look after themselves? Not our problem.

You're kidding, right?

Americans do not do that at all. They are notorious for having the highest incarceration rate in the developed world, everyone knows that.

The USA never does that.

10fathoms

Grind em all up for fertilizer.

TuringBot47

end of the road wrote: »

criminals pay for their crimes by having their liberty taken away, if they are sent to prison.

No they don't.
Victims don't get anything from them, maybe house/motor insurance that the victims already paid for.

The only thing prison does is give society a temporary break from them.

Assuming they even see prison time, or are on bail and get "consecutive sentences" and can have a "The Purge" style consequence free crime rampages while on bail.

We really need state appointed bailiffs to take say 5 times the value of goods of these scumbags to compensate victims of financial loss.
The criminal asset bureau should be going through their houses after any serious crime.

Irish society/Western society is terribly weak to deal with these internal and externally imported/immigrated threats.

end of the road

TuringBot47 wrote: »

No they don't.
Victims don't get anything from them, maybe house/motor insurance that the victims already paid for.

The only thing prison does is give society a temporary break from them.

Assuming they even see prison time, or are on bail and get "consecutive sentences" and can have a "The Purge" style consequence free crime rampages while on bail.

the punishment handed down for the crime is the payment for the crime.
now you can disagree with specific punishments or feel they aren't hard enough or whatever, but ultimately there isn't going to be a monitary payment for the crime from the criminal as realistically it's not viable.

TuringBot47 wrote: »

We really need state appointed bailiffs to take say 5 times the value of goods of these scumbags to compensate victims of financial loss.
The criminal asset bureau should be going through their houses after any serious crime.

we do need state operated and appointed bailiffs yes, directly employed and paid for. however that is a separate issue to the second part of your suggestion which in all likely hood wouldn't be cost effective and financially viable i have a feeling.
we would have to assume they even have such goods in their house or at easy reach. if they know such goods would be taken then they would use whatever means to get around that which means extra cost. then no doubt they will just commit more, and higher level crime on top of that.
cab to their credit do try and get whatever when they can, but i would suspect that what they are doing is all that can really be done on that score. i would suspect that they only get a tiny amount of what criminals actually have.

TuringBot47 wrote: »

Irish society/Western society is terribly weak to deal with these internal and externally imported/immigrated threats.

actually they aren't weak at all. rather it's an unwillingness to spend the money on the resources required to do it.

Graces7

Have a look at the series from the UK on High Court bailiffs. "Can;t pay; we take it away"

It encapsulates a lot of what you are saying

Also folk here are not seeing the total lack of freedom prison enforces. No going anywhere.

end of the road wrote: »

the punishment handed down for the crime is the payment for the crime.
now you can disagree with specific punishments or feel they aren't hard enough or whatever, but ultimately there isn't going to be a monitary payment for the crime from the criminal as realistically it's not viable.



we do need state operated and appointed bailiffs yes, directly employed and paid for. however that is a separate issue to the second part of your suggestion which in all likely hood wouldn't be cost effective and financially viable i have a feeling.
we would have to assume they even have such goods in their house or at easy reach. if they know such goods would be taken then they would use whatever means to get around that which means extra cost. then no doubt they will just commit more, and higher level crime on top of that.
cab to their credit do try and get whatever when they can, but i would suspect that what they are doing is all that can really be done on that score. i would suspect that they only get a tiny amount of what criminals actually have.



actually they aren't weak at all. rather it's an unwillingness to spend the money on the resources required to do it.