Does anyone know what did Ireland do to improve on gender gap recent year ?

MonsterCookie

Phoebas wrote: »

It was, but unfair pay and conditions effect people all their working lives (and into their retirement). There are, of course, more recent cases (example, example, example).

But as I said, the gender pay gap is not really about direct comparison cases; more about structural problems in the labour market.
I never quite understood the knee jerk reactions some men have about the gender pay gap, like they're in competition with women but not with other men. Surely a level playing field ultimately benefits us all.

I agree there may well be structural issues - but feel there are also career/ lifestyle choices that women make that have a knock on effect on their pay. i can speak from experience i.e. the women in my family have tended to want to stay at home when kids arrived, and i've seen similar in my own workplace.

My guess is that many men (myself included) are sceptical about the gender pay gap, and don't like being told by some women that we're benefiting from the patriarchy - as you say we're competing against men and women.

I've been told directly (unofficially of course) when going for promotions that being a man is a disadvantage cos of pressure to promote a woman into senior roles. i assume other men have had similar experiences. This is the result of outcome based 'equality' as opposed to equal opportunity which i grew up believing was what we were all aiming for.

carq

Phoebas wrote: »

It was, but unfair pay and conditions effect people all their working lives (and into their retirement). There are, of course, more recent cases (example, example, example).

But as I said, the gender pay gap is not really about direct comparison cases; more about structural problems in the labour market.
I never quite understood the knee jerk reactions some men have about the gender pay gap, like they're in competition with women but not with other men. Surely a level playing field ultimately benefits us all.

If you take women out of the equasion, There are many valid reasons why one man could be paid more than another man in roughly the same role. What if man a is a higher performer than man b?
What if man a is in the role 5 years more than man b and got incremental increases in those 5 years? Why should man b in either role get the same?

greencap

Women don't get their hands dirty or risk their life.

There's your pay gap.

Gynoid

greencap wrote: »

Women don't get their hands dirty or risk their life.

There's your pay gap.

Yup. Lazy ladies. They have only huffed and puffed and sweated and queezed almost every member of the species out of their lovely fannies. And the rest of them got taken out of their tummies through a slit. At reasonably great risk to all their lives. Every single time. There are also a fair amount of dirty hands involved.

Reviews and Books Galore

Gynoid wrote: »

Yup. Lazy ladies. They have only huffed and puffed and sweated and queezed almost every member of the species out of their lovely fannies. And the rest of them got taken out of their tummies through a slit. At reasonably great risk to all their lives. Every single time. There are also a fair amount of dirty hands involved.

Yeah, if your shaming women/men for being born then you are kind of on the wrong path :P

greencap

Gynoid wrote: »

Yup. Lazy ladies. They have only huffed and puffed and sweated and queezed almost every member of the species out of their lovely fannies. And the rest of them got taken out of their tummies through a slit. At reasonably great risk to all their lives. Every single time. There are also a fair amount of dirty hands involved.

Unfortunately 'being born' is not considered an occupation.

What do you do a living?
Oh, well I get born.

Arrival

Gynoid wrote: »

Can someone post me a direct example of where in Ireland for the exact same job a woman gets paid less than a man?

Please post examples...
Eg in civil service position of equal grade, or on the assembly line in a factory doing the same thing or working in the supermarket, both doing the same job. Or a male nurse vs female nurse doing same job? Teacher pay different for male vs female teacher in same school? Female accountant in a company doing same hours, same work getting paid less? Etc etc. This is for my education purposes.

IF this is really happening I will be quite cross and fully on board the project of agitating for equal pay. Really I will, because it would be disgraceful. I would be a good ally fir the cause as I can be quite determined, so show me the proof please. Same job, same work, same hours, different pay.

If it is not happening then I will not care. But I will wonder briefly once more why there is lying about the gender pay gap.

The thing is, even comparing just using those isn't really great. You have other variables such as qualifications, the university/colleges they obtained their qualifications from, their overall grades, their previous job experience, the amount of hours worked, the performance grades received during their work, the potential differences in their salary negotiation skills (or lack of even bothering to negotiate salaries when interviewing for new jobs and raises within current jobs - seriously, this is up to yourself as an individual to improve on, it's absolutely necessary and nobody will, nor should they, hold your hand in ensuring you're paid what you're worth). Probably others I've omitted as well. Until you find two identical candidates to compare this type of comparison is basically useless because these kinds of variables will, and should, result in differences of salaries

Gynoid

greencap wrote: »

Unfortunately 'being born' is not considered an occupation.

What do you do a living?
Oh, well I get born.

It is the giving birth that is the labour. You said women don't risk their lives or get their hands dirty. Was just saying we kinda do, that's all

yesto24

Gynoid wrote: »

It is the giving birth that is the labour. You said women don't risk their lives or get their hands dirty. Was just saying we kinda do, that's all

To have your own children.
You want to get paid for that?

kildare lad

Women are half the population on this planet, If women feel so hard done by , by men, why don't they set up their own company's ?? People can pull whatever figures they want and skew them to fit their agenda. My friend's dad was high up in a very large company , he barely ever seen he's kids , the wife left him cos he was never home. He had loads of money but a crap family life. I doubt there's too many people man or woman who want to spend 70 + plus hours a week working .

greencap

Gynoid wrote: »

It is the giving birth that is the labour. You said women don't risk their lives or get their hands dirty. Was just saying we kinda do, that's all

Getting cream pied is not work. (off camera)

Unless your job title is incubator.

Fr_Dougal

greencap wrote: »

Women don't get their hands dirty or risk their life.

There's your pay gap.

Female Gardaí, nurses and doctors who have to look after patients who are abusive or on drugs. That’s just the tip of the iceberg.

mulbot

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

Female Gardaí, nurses and doctors who have to look after patients who are abusive or on drugs. That’s just the tip of the iceberg.

But do they not get paid the same as males in same roles?

Fr_Dougal

mulbot wrote: »

But do they not get paid the same as males in same roles?

My understanding is that they do, I was addressing the comment that women don’t get their hands dirty or risk their lives.

mulbot

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

My understanding is that they do, I was addressing the comment that women don’t get their hands dirty or risk their lives.

Ah ok. I think that poster was referring to women who don't choose these roles as to why there are pay differences,makes sense really.

MadYaker

The gender pay gap isn’t women getting paid less or being discriminated against necessarily. Women take time out of their careers to have children and this reduces their earning potential over the course of their career, it slows down their career progression because they disappear for 9 months every time they have a child so they get passed over for promotions etc. This can be debated but the statistics that OP talks about reflect it and I see it happening in the company I work for, especially with women who have 2 or 3 kids in a relatively short time. That’s the gender pay gap (poor term for this purpose imo) and our government and many others are of the opinion that this is a problem that needs to be rectified.

I don’t have much of an opinion one way or another as it doesn’t really effect me in any way and unlike most of the lads posting here I don’t feel threatened by women and don’t mind them getting a leg up. Not many female engineers anyway and I’m much better than the few that are in my company.

Touchee

Gynoid wrote: »

Can someone post me a direct example of where in Ireland for the exact same job a woman gets paid less than a man?

Please post examples...
Eg in civil service position of equal grade, or on the assembly line in a factory doing the same thing or working in the supermarket, both doing the same job. Or a male nurse vs female nurse doing same job? Teacher pay different for male vs female teacher in same school? Female accountant in a company doing same hours, same work getting paid less? Etc etc. This is for my education purposes.

IF this is really happening I will be quite cross and fully on board the project of agitating for equal pay. Really I will, because it would be disgraceful. I would be a good ally fir the cause as I can be quite determined, so show me the proof please. Same job, same work, same hours, different pay.

If it is not happening then I will not care. But I will wonder briefly once more why there is lying about the gender pay gap.

I am a female accountant, paid €5k less than my male colleague. Same qualifications and level of responsibility and experience.

I have not mentioned it in work, because I am afraid I will be labelled as the one who screams discrimination. Maybe I am a coward, but I honestly feel that HR and boss will look at me with different eyes and will see me as a trouble maker.

The funny thing is that the company line is that we need to support women in business, but as usual the reality is different.

I am not quite sure how gender pay gap is calculated as a statistic, I certainly have not seen any survey requests from the CSO or anything like that.

greencap

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

Female Gardaí, nurses and doctors who have to look after patients who are abusive or on drugs. That’s just the tip of the iceberg.

Right there are obviously exceptions.

Its hardly an iceberg, more a block of ice.

The point is, rare exceptions aside, men do the dirty and dangerous work.

Thats why men have a way higher work fatality and injury rate.

Dangerous/dirty work is not something people take on without compensation.

So higher pay for laboring on a roof than sitting at hotel reception.

The pay gap is a crock of shyte.

Its a rough job gap that exists... Women generally don't risk their ass or get their hands dirty, men do.

MadYaker

Touchee wrote: »

I am a female accountant, paid €5k less than my male colleague. Same qualifications and level of responsibility and experience.

So you have the exact same position with the same responsibilities but are getting paid 5k less? If that’s true you should talk to a solicitor not your employer.

bunderoon

Touchee wrote: »

I am a female accountant, paid €5k less than my male colleague. Same qualifications and level of responsibility and experience.

I have not mentioned it in work, because I am afraid I will be labelled as the one who screams discrimination. Maybe I am a coward, but I honestly feel that HR and boss will look at me with different eyes and will see me as a trouble maker.

The funny thing is that the company line is that we need to support women in business, but as usual the reality is different.

I am not quite sure how gender pay gap is calculated as a statistic, I certainly have not seen any survey requests from the CSO or anything like that.

Do you know if your male colleague asked for the raise? Is he in the job longer (yearly increments)?
Did your male colleague possibly ask for more money when the position was offered to him after his interview?

MadYaker

greencap wrote: »

Right there are obviously exceptions.

Its hardly an iceberg, more a block of ice.

The point is, rare exceptions aside, men do the dirty and dangerous work.

Thats why men have a way higher work fatality and injury rate.

Dangerous/dirty work is not something people take on without compensation.

So higher pay for laboring on a roof than sitting at hotel reception.

The pay gap is a crock of shyte.

Its a rough job gap that exists... Women generally don't risk their ass or get their hands dirty, men do.

This is all meaningless anecdotal nonsense. There are plenty of female Gardai, nurses, teachers, public transport workers etc they all get abused regularly. Women get it worse than men. But the term pay gap is unsuitable here.

Touchee

MadYaker wrote: »

So you have the exact same position with the same responsibilities but are getting paid 5k less? If that’s true you should talk to a solicitor not your employer.

We don’t do the same work, but we share responsibilities equally. We would be held responsible equally in case certain things went wrong.

I find talking to a solicitor would also end up with me being the black sheep in the company. I don’t let it affect my work, but I do think it’s unfair.

What I don’t understand is how has the pay gap improved in Ireland? What is the methodology for calculating the pay gap? As far as I know there are no legal requirements for any companies to submit such information. I could be wrong of course, but I am not aware of it.

Arrival

Touchee wrote: »

I am a female accountant, paid €5k less than my male colleague. Same qualifications and level of responsibility and experience.

I have not mentioned it in work, because I am afraid I will be labelled as the one who screams discrimination. Maybe I am a coward, but I honestly feel that HR and boss will look at me with different eyes and will see me as a trouble maker.

The funny thing is that the company line is that we need to support women in business, but as usual the reality is different.

I am not quite sure how gender pay gap is calculated as a statistic, I certainly have not seen any survey requests from the CSO or anything like that.

Have you ever asked for a raise? Did you negotiate your salary when you started? You could just as easily be a man earning €5k less than that same guy, so perhaps it's nothing to do with your gender and more to do with the fact that companies pay many different employees many different salaries as they ultimately try to pay as little as possible to their employees. If you haven't asked for raises or negotiated your salary from the start then you can't really expect them to ensure you're paid the same as him; regardless of gender companies often don't do this, they take every measure to reduce costs and increase profits possible

Either way, you should really be looking for a raise to rectify that or narrow the gap for your own good. You don't even need to mention the fact you're aware of the difference in salaries between the two of you

greencap

MadYaker wrote: »

This is all meaningless anecdotal nonsense. There are plenty of female Gardai, nurses, teachers, public transport workers etc they all get abused regularly. Women get it worse than men. But the term pay gap is unsuitable here.

Yeah but the percentage differences in who is doing a dirty job reflect the difference in overall pay.

For every lad laboring on a site, or lifting bins, there is not a female counterpart.

Far from it. And that explains at least a sizeable part of the difference in earnings between males and females.

Touchee

Arrival wrote: »

Have you ever asked for a raise? Did you negotiate your salary when you started? You could just as easily be a man earning €5k less than that same guy, so perhaps it's nothing to do with your gender and more to do with the fact that companies pay many different employees many different salaries as they ultimately try to pay as little as possible to their employees. If you haven't asked for raises or negotiated your salary from the start then you can't really expect them to ensure you're paid the same as him; regardless of gender companies often don't do this.

I have negotiated my salary and got a couple of pay increases since I started. But so did my male colleague, so he always ends up on €5k more than me. I do think it’s a unconscious gender pay gap issue, but for a company that shouts gender equality whenever possible, I don’t expect to be the one pointing it out.

Again, I have to highlight that to my knowledge no law has been enacted in Ireland regarding gender pay reporting. Is anyone aware of it?

If so, how are the stats calculated?

Sweetemotion

Touchee wrote: »

I have negotiated my salary and got a couple of pay increases since I started. But so did my male colleague, so he always ends up on €5k more than me. I do think it’s a unconscious gender pay gap issue, but for a company that shouts gender equality whenever possible, I don’t expect to be the one pointing it out.

Again, I have to highlight that to my knowledge no law has been enacted in Ireland regarding gender pay reporting. Is anyone aware of it?

If so, how are the stats calculated?

Do you work the same hours?

Touchee

Sweetemotion wrote: »

Do you work the same hours?

Of course, we both put in more hours than what is contractually required, as that is the nature of the job. I truly believe that we are on the same level in every single regard.

€5k increments seems to be the max pay rise at any one time, that the company is willing to negotiate. So I would have to ask for a €10k pay increase, to match his salary. I am not willing to bring this up, simply because I could be seen as a trouble maker. I am not comfortable with this type of conversation so most probably I’ll just let it go and move on to a different company in the next 2 years or so.

My point is that it does happen, consciously or unconsciously, and that perhaps it isn’t brought up as often as people think, because it is a difficult conversation to have.

uptherebels

Touchee wrote: »

I have negotiated my salary and got a couple of pay increases since I started. But so did my male colleague, so he always ends up on €5k more than me. I do think it’s a unconscious gender pay gap issue, but for a company that shouts gender equality whenever possible, I don’t expect to be the one pointing it out.

Again, I have to highlight that to my knowledge no law has been enacted in Ireland regarding gender pay reporting. Is anyone aware of it?

If so, how are the stats calculated?

If you negotiated your own salary, you can't really complain that someone else negotiated a better one, least of all call it a "unconscious gender pay gap". You also said that you carry out different work to your colleague so even if the salary was fixed, you aren't comparing like with like.

the_pen_turner

Touchee wrote: »

I have negotiated my salary and got a couple of pay increases since I started. But so did my male colleague, so he always ends up on €5k more than me. I do think it’s a unconscious gender pay gap issue, but for a company that shouts gender equality whenever possible, I don’t expect to be the one pointing it out.

Again, I have to highlight that to my knowledge no law has been enacted in Ireland regarding gender pay reporting. Is anyone aware of it?

If so, how are the stats calculated?

its unfair to say its based on gender.
nobody knows that.

these thing happen for all kinds of reasons that have nothing to do with gender

if a company is choosing to hure and expand but doesnt need to do it then they can be a lot more selective and can wait for the best person or just a cheaper cost to them
but if they are short staffed and need that person then they are over a barrel so to speek and can be forced to offer more money to the employee forthe role . someone simply playing hardball could easily get them 5k more if they are needed and nt just wanted.

i dont think any pay gap can be proven in these type of roles. it would need to be a staged sting so that all aplicants and corispondance could be manipulated nd monitered to see whats actually going on

Sweetemotion

Touchee wrote: »

My point is that it does happen, consciously or unconsciously, and that perhaps it isn’t brought up as often as people think, because it is a difficult conversation to have.

That happens regardless of gender.