Does anyone know what did Ireland do to improve on gender gap recent year ?

Touchee

Sweetemotion wrote: »

That happens regardless of gender.

Sure, it just happens more to women than men.

To move on from my situation, as it can only result in arguing back and forth, is anyone aware of any piece of legislation in Ireland that enforces reporting by companies and methodology for said reporting?

Arrival

Touchee wrote: »

I have negotiated my salary and got a couple of pay increases since I started. But so did my male colleague, so he always ends up on €5k more than me. I do think it’s a unconscious gender pay gap issue, but for a company that shouts gender equality whenever possible, I don’t expect to be the one pointing it out.

Again, I have to highlight that to my knowledge no law has been enacted in Ireland regarding gender pay reporting. Is anyone aware of it?

If so, how are the stats calculated?

Were these automatically provided by the company and you accepted them without further negotiating them? If so, you not only have to negotiate salaries when starting new jobs, you also have to negotiate raises each year. Each year you gain more experience and skills and become more valuable as an employee and you need to ask for what you feel/know you are worth. You know you're worth at least €5k more here so it's on you to ask for that

Touchee

Arrival wrote: »

Were these automatically provided by the company and you accepted them without further negotiating them? If so, you not only have to negotiate salaries when starting new jobs, you also have to negotiate raises each year. Each year you gain more experience and skills and become more valuable as an employee and you need to ask for what you feel/know you are worth. You know you're worth at least €5k more here so it's on you to ask for that

No, not automatically granted, had to ask for it and make my case, but the idea of a bigger pay rise not entertained at the moment. It’s not an increment, there’s no right to a pay increase.

Anyway, I feel like I will be justifying myself on the internet until the end of time

LoughNeagh2017

Women crying inequality in the west in 2019 makes my skin crawl. I will make sure to keep women in my thoughts when I am breaking my back lifting slabs of meat in my next factory job for £270pw. Those poor female recruitment agents who give me these jobs must have such a hard time in those Belfast offices. "Just get a better job bro" society says, "ok bro I will take my IQ pills and maybe anti-Autism pills will come on the market to remove my autism too." The worst thing about it is that people hate you when you are unemployed and if you do get a job they look down on you for being low tier, men like me can't win really.

Touchee

Touchee wrote: »

Sure, it just happens more to women than men.

In some industries. And the reasons for that disparity are well known. The problem is that most women do not want to engage in the same behavior as men when it comes to their careers. They don't want to negotiate their salaries because it makes them uncomfortable. They don't want to pressure the company for promotions or bonuses (which many men do), so instead, they ask for laws to be implemented to force the issue for them. They don't want to work the long hours, or engage in large amounts of travel after they hit 30 years old, because most women start considering having a family at that stage.

This isn't about equality. This is about life choices. You choose to live a certain way that is different from males.... but you expect society to foot the bill for it. And invariably it is males in the workforce, or those females who are more clued in, who are discriminated against because the women less interested in such choices, have to gain preferential treatment.

You're an accountant. I worked in Financial Management for over a decade. In my industry, the majority of staff are female. Most of my managers were female. However by the age of 30, I was far ahead of them in positions and salaries. Why? because they didn't want to compete for the roles once they got married and started considering having children.

How did I gain the upper roles? I was single. I worked officially 39 hours a week, and put in at least 48 hours a week. As a manager, I'd be in the office on weekends, and most nights I'd be leaving at 7 or 8 at night. I didn't have time or energy for a social life beyond the workplace. I fought for promotions, and claimed my salary increases as gestures of appreciation for the work I'd done... Work that went beyond the requirements of my position.

In most cases, That is the reason for the pay gap. Most women expect to gain promotions and salary increases for simply doing their job. Most men expect to gain promotions and salary increases for doing more than is expected of them. That's why upper management in medium/large companies tend to be so competitive, but generally, women aren't interested in such a competitive environment. Many men aren't either.

The funny thing about the pay gap is that there are loads of men who are not getting the same salaries as other males in their departments. They're not interested in competing or pushing themselves. But they're ignored, because it must be a gender issue. Yup.

To move on from my situation, as it can only result in arguing back and forth, is anyone aware of any piece of legislation in Ireland that enforces reporting by companies and methodology for said reporting?

Why would there be a need for such legislation? The law is clear. You, as an employee, have the right to query a salary discrepancy should you feel that you are being discriminated against. However, don't be surprised if it's proven that you're not being discriminated against, that you start getting passed over for promotions. (Not gender discrimination. That's discrimination for being a trouble maker) If you have a complaint, do the legwork.

However, I'm very curious as to how you know exactly the salary that your colleague is earning. Generally, Salaries are considered private information, and most companies have policies against employees comparing such.

carq

Touchee wrote: »

Sure, it just happens more to women than men.

To move on from my situation, as it can only result in arguing back and forth, is anyone aware of any piece of legislation in Ireland that enforces reporting by companies and methodology for said reporting?

Why are you so obsessed with legislation?
You want a higher wage but not willing to do anything about it.
If you are worth 10k extra get a job offer in writing for this amount and go to your company.
If they feel you are worth 10k extra they will pay you it to stay, if not good luck in the new job.

Merry Christmas

Arrival

[Deleted User] wrote: »

However, I'm very curious as to how you know exactly the salary that your colleague is earning. Generally, Salaries are considered private information, and most companies have policies against employees comparing such.

It's a good idea to discuss salaries with similar colleagues in order to consider whether or not you, and them, are getting a fair deal. Those policies only positively serve the company since it benefits them for all/most employees to be less informed about where they're truly at with regards to their salary. Are those policies even enforceable anyway? I never understood the big aversion to being open with others about salary (as in with people you work with), it makes no logical sense to be all secretive about it and it's really not a big deal at all and can be hugely helpful for everyone

Arrival

Arrival wrote: »

It's a good idea to discuss salaries with similar colleagues in order to consider whether or not you, and them, are getting a fair deal.

I got a fair deal because I always knew the market salaries for a person in my position. It's a rough guide, but I know my worth based on the work I did, and the value I brought to the company. I didn't expect better salary increases for work that I didn't do... Feedback is key. Talk to your superiors and determine are you meeting their expectations and whether you can improve in any area. There you go. A fair deal.

Those policies only positively serve the company since it benefits them for all/most employees to be less informed about where they're truly at with regards to their salary.

They protect the employee too. I wouldn't want you knowing my salary. Why is it your business to know what your colleagues are earning? I wouldn't consider it to be anything to do with you. Your work. Your salary.

Are those policies even enforceable anyway? I never understood the big aversion to being open with others about salary (as in with people you work with), it makes no logical sense to be all secretive about it and it's really not a big deal at all and can be hugely helpful for everyone

Why is it helpful? It simply causes friction because some people have misguided beliefs about their self-worth compared to others.

Arrival

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I got a fair deal because I always knew the market salaries for a person in my position. It's a rough guide, but I know my worth based on the work I did, and the value I brought to the company. I didn't expect better salary increases for work that I didn't do... Feedback is key. Talk to your superiors and determine are you meeting their expectations and whether you can improve in any area. There you go. A fair deal.



They protect the employee too. I wouldn't want you knowing my salary. Why is it your business to know what your colleagues are earning? I wouldn't consider it to be anything to do with you. Your work. Your salary.



Why is it helpful? It simply causes friction because some people have misguided beliefs about their self-worth compared to others.

Yeahhh, you would definitely be that guy in the office lmao

Arrival

Arrival wrote: »

Yeahhh, you would definitely be that guy in the office lmao

Yup. I would be. The one that reached upper management and went for partner. :rolleyes: It's about being professional and committed to your career.

There's little point sharing salary amounts with others because you have no reasonable guarantee that they're not inflating their salaries to make themselves look better. Anyway, I did payroll at a few companies. The calculations used to determine salaries for people working within the same department are often different due to commissions, personal allocations, shares, etc. Comparing salaries means very little except for people on a base salary, and few professionals are going to be on a base salary once they start climbing the ladder.

Sarahdunners

121 women have lodged gender pay grievances against the BBC.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/10/31/three-top-female-presenters-have-tackled-bbc-gender-pay-gap/amp/

Sarahdunners

I always think that it is pointless arguing with men online, who say that there is not a gender pay gap.

There is a gender pay gap - which is an issue of men abusing women - for men's gain,

Wouldn't the first thing that those men do - be to deny a pay gap exists, so that they can continue to abuse women, and continue to gain from women.

That is how abusers work.

Why would they stop? They get more money, women get less. The abuse favours them.

It is only when women start to hold companies more accountable, that it will stop. Which is what is happening now. Women are suing companies. And they are gettig results

Sarahdunners

Well done to the men on here who have spoken in support of women.

Sarahdunners

greencap wrote: »

Getting cream pied is not work. (off camera)

Unless your job title is incubator.

Wouldn't it be nice if you could have respect for the gender - that gives birth to the entire population.

Yurt2

Sarahdunners wrote: »

I always think that it is pointless arguing with men online, who say that there is not a gender pay gap.

There is a gender pay gap - which is an issue of men abusing women - for men's gain,

Wouldn't the first thing that those men do - be to deny a pay gap exists, so that they can continue to abuse women, and continue to gain from women.

That is how abusers work.

Why would they stop? They get more money, women get less. The abuse favours them.

It is only when women start to hold companies more accountable, that it will stop. Which is what is happening now. Women are suing companies. And they are gettig results

Abuse? A gigantic and manipulative leap you're making there.

In most cases across all developed economies, the data does not bear out feminists political proposition that there is a pay gap. There is an earnings gap for certain - but cartoon boogeymen mysogynists aren't running around taking money out of females' paycheques.

the_pen_turner

Sarahdunners wrote: »

I always think that it is pointless arguing with men online, who say that there is not a gender pay gap.

There is a gender pay gap - which is an issue of men abusing women - for men's gain,

Wouldn't the first thing that those men do - be to deny a pay gap exists, so that they can continue to abuse women, and continue to gain from women.

That is how abusers work.

Why would they stop? They get more money, women get less. The abuse favours them.

It is only when women start to hold companies more accountable, that it will stop. Which is what is happening now. Women are suing companies. And they are gettig results

how does your logic work when you take into account that men are twice as likely to be victims of abuse at the hands of women than the other way around


the gender pay gap is a total myth and has been show to be made up several times.
earnings gap yes but thats based on lots of stuff and not gender

Sarahdunners

Yurt! wrote: »

Abuse? A gigantic and manipulative leap you're making there.

In most cases across all developed economies, the data does not bear out feminists political proposition that there is a pay gap. There is an earnings gap for certain - but cartoon boogeymen mysogynists aren't running around taking money out of females' paycheques.

Yurt, what do you think of the 121 women - bringing gender pay gap grievances against the B.B.C?

mvl

Well, it seems the discussion is focused about pay, when actually this is not what I was wanting to get from the thread.
I was intrigued about why would Ireland be seen in same league as the countries in Northern Europe ... e.g. why weren't other countries from the continent rewarded that place instead.
Mentioned benchmarking from the article linked in OP had four broader categories: health and survival, educational attainment, economic participation/opportunity, and political empowerment. Lets take last one: high political empowerment corresponds to high numbers of women in senior roles.
-> Does anyone know if we've improved anything on this subject within last year(s) ?

PS: related in a way - this article from earlier in the year suggests there are only 6 countries in the world where men and women have equal legal work rights: Belgium, Denmark, France, Latvia, Luxembourg and Sweden.

the_pen_turner

Sarahdunners wrote: »

Yurt what do you think of the 122 women bringing gender pay gap grievances against the B.B.C?

we will have to wait and see the result. the last time the bbc checked for this it was forced to increase more mens saleries than women. same goes for google.

Sarahdunners

There is also a report, here

Companies had to report their earnings by gender, recently.

The study found that EVERY sector pays men more.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/business-47252848.

How can you call something a "myth" in the face of so many studies. Now that is truly strange.

Yurt2

Sarahdunners wrote: »

Yurt, what do you think of the 121 women - bringing gender pay gap grievances against the B.B.C?

Greivences aren't always grounded in fact. Some of some may be borne out with scrutiny, some will crumble under the same scrutiny.

Yurt2

Sarahdunners wrote: »

There is also a report, here

Companies had to report their earnings by gender, recently.

The study found that EVERY sector pays men more.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/business-47252848.

How can you call something a "myth" in the face of so many studies. Now that is truly strange.

Ah the old 'average' trick. Do your self a favour and never take a class in statistics and data modelling. You might find it problematic.

All of the above are an earnings gap, and not a pay gap. A very important distinction.

Sarahdunners

What if there is actually a gender pay gap, how would you feel?

I am curious to know if the men on here are denying there is a gender pay gap (in the face of overwhelming evidence that there is one)

Due to:
1) feeling guilt
2) not seeing it because they don't have to see it
3) not wanting to see it, because the gender pay gap benefits them.

I am curious - how many reports, statistics , facts and research could I post , and someone would still say it is a myth.

Sarahdunners

Yurt! wrote: »

Ah the old 'average' trick. Do your self a favour and never take a class in statistics and data modelling. You might find it problematic.

All of the above are an earnings gap, and not a pay gap. A very important distinction.

What a belittling tone. The joke is on you, as I took alot of classes in Statistics , and statistical analysis in my first Degree.

Do yourself a favour, and don't under assume some one elses's intelligence.

Sarahdunners

Yurt, did you really just say, "Do your self a favour and never take a class in statistics and data modelling. You might find it problematic.".

I don't think that I have read anything more condescending in my life. That is actually laughable!

Yurt2

Sarahdunners wrote: »

Yurt, did you really just say, "Do your self a favour and never take a class in statistics and data modelling. You might find it problematic.".

I don't think that I have read anything more condescending in my life. That is actually laughable!

I find flimsy political gender gap 'divide by two' reporting condescending. The pay gap movement has been debunked time and time again by economists.

If you want to play politics, get used to criticism, and to say men (and it's not all men making the counter arguement) are abusive for disagreeing with your political playbook, is quite manipulative.

Sarahdunners

Here is an irish study, in 2019.

"Female graduates earn 28% less than male graduates"

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/irish-news/education/gender-pay-gap-females-with-a-degree-earn-significantly-less-than-male-peers-report-reveals-38484873.html.

This study was carried out by the organisation for Economic Co-Operation and Development.

How many studies do you want, before you stop calling it a myth?

Can you give me an exact figure, of the amount of studies that you want?

Yurt2

Sarahdunners wrote: »

What a belittling tone. The joke is on you, as I took alot of classes in Statistics , and statistical analysis in my first Degree.

Do yourself a favour, and don't under assume some one elses's intelligence.

If you indeed took such classes, you'd recognize the pay gap reporting for what it is: un-thorough and grounded in the weakest and most basic of methodologies. All reverse engineered to fit a political narrative.

the_pen_turner

Sarahdunners wrote: »

What a belittling tone. The joke is on you, as I took alot of classes in Statistics , and statistical analysis in my first Degree.

Do yourself a favour, and don't under assume some one elses's intelligence.

if that is true then you should be well qualified to see that all these studies are highly biased and not based on facts. taking an average across a company will always show an earnings gap .


all it would take for me to say there is a pay gap is one piece of evidence to support it i have yet to see it.

you need to be comparing 2 people doing the same job witht he same qualifications, experience, asking for the same salery but getting offered less because of their gender

Silentcorner

Sarahdunners wrote: »

Yurt, did you really just say, "Do your self a favour and never take a class in statistics and data modelling. You might find it problematic.".

I don't think that I have read anything more condescending in my life. That is actually laughable!

I doubt you read much!

It is an Earnings Gap not a Pay Gap

It isn't even difficult to spot in your real life if you manage to take your head out of your backside.

Men work in more difficult, dangerous and dirty environments, men work longer hours, are more willing to commute longer distances, choose different trades, different degree's....

I had thought that this nonsense was put to bed by any reasonable person...but of course, I forgot what we are dealing with here....empowered morons!!!