Does anyone know what did Ireland do to improve on gender gap recent year ?

Fr D Maugire

Ironically, my experience of the gender pay gap in Ireland was(and most likely still is) discriminatory towards males. That was in Hospitality and is measurable as so many people work for the minimun wage in that industry. So if you worked functions/were a server/bartender both sexes were paid equally, but very rarely did equal work. For example, after functions when tables/chairs needed to be moved it would be lads only doing this, the ladies(males also) would be polishing silverware or something else, that lads would do if the ladies were not working. If the ladies finished first, they got to go home, if it happened other way round, lads would have to help polish the silverware. Almost without fail after weddings, female staff would be done around midnight, but lads would have to stay on to 4/5 in the morning to do the heavy lifting. Ironically this meant that males would earn more as they worked longer hours, which in statistics would suggest a gender pay gap, but not once did I ever hear a female colleague complain about not getting to work late or do heavy lifting, they were usually gung-ho to get out the door asap. Trust me, pulling 12/13 hours shifts and working until all hours was not worth the extra flat rate pay you got.

Likewise, bartending..the ladies can do it just as well for sure in terms of serving, but move kegs around, carry buckets of ice, get involved with rowdy customers etc, no that would be the lads job. Of course there would be the odd female bucking the trend, but they were in a very tiny minority and few showed much interest in changing that thinking. In my experience, this was the accepted way of things in the various hospitality places I worked. I remember we had one female supervisor who was very stadfest in ensuring the females did no lifting of any sort. TBH, it never bothered me that much as it seemed logical, but when I hear females going on about equal pay for equal work, I smile wryly at the very notion in the hospitality industy. Thankfully I no longer work in that industry.

MadYaker

the_pen_turner wrote: »

can you elaborate on why its interesting or even relivent

It's relevant to this thread because it expains what the gender pay gap is and what causes it and this thread is about the gender pay gap.

I'm still reading though it and it's kind of changed my mind of this issue. I used to think discrimination was the main cause but it's mostly just down to women choosing different career paths which pay less like techers or nurses earn less than someone of similar experience in say engineering or IT. Also the fact that women have kids doesn't help because every time they do they drop out of work for the guts of a year (maternity leave) which is obviously going to slow down their career progression, especially if they have a few kids. Not sure how you get around that one though.

the_pen_turner

MadYaker wrote: »

It's relevant to this thread because it expains what the gender pay gap is and what causes it and this thread is about the gender pay gap.

I'm still reading though it and it's kind of changed my mind of this issue. I used to think discrimination was the main cause but it's mostly just down to women choosing different career paths which pay less like techers or nurses earn less than someone of similar experience in say engineering or IT. Also the fact that women have kids doesn't help because every time they do they drop out of work for the guts of a year (maternity leave) which is obviously going to slow down their career progression, especially if they have a few kids. Not sure how you get around that one though.

it shows that there is a wage gap. it even states it several times .

sounds like you believe that there is no pay gap but a wage gap. thats great, at least you see the truth

there is a huge diference beteen a wage gap and a pay gap.

MadYaker

Yeah. Who ever turned this into an issue should never have used the term gender pay gap. Not suitable. I thought I knew what this was about but I didn't, the OECD article is teaching me, so thats why interesting to me at least!

To be honest having read about it I'm confused as to why this is such an issue? If women choose career paths that pay less then obviously there's going to a difference in wages between the genders.

Id be interested to read a study that compared the figues within a single profession, say IT or maybe something that has closer to a 50:50 split between men and women. I suspect this gap wouldn't be as prominent then.

the_pen_turner

MadYaker wrote: »

Yeah. Who ever turned this into an issue should never have used the term gender pay gap. Not suitable. I thought I knew what this was about but I didn't, the OECD article is teaching me, so thats why interesting to me at least!

this is the problem with calling a pay gap. it causes people to go defensive and show how it is rubbish

if they came out and said we have a wage gap and they its caused by x y and z and gave a list like
women taking maternity leave reduces their experience levels
women work less hours
women take more time off
women work less overtime
women choose to work in jobs that pay less


then there would be a lot more respect for the people making their claims because they would be true and based on facts.

there are a lot of areas that can be addressed that could help women lower the wage gap like
proper paternity leave for men
childcare on site
etc

nobody would mind a discushion on that

Arrival

MadYaker wrote: »

Here have a read, it’s actually interesting

https://www.econstor.eu/bitstream/10419/167113/1/ifo-dice-report-v11-y2013-i1-p69-71.pdf

Not sure if its the right study but its related

Yep, useless stuff as suspected

From my other post:

there's a gender wage gap, in this scenario for graduates, after seeing a study where they compare a male and female who both:

- Complete their Leaving Certificates with the same/very close points

- Complete the same degrees with the same graduation grades from the same university

- Have the same/similar work experience/internships during their university years

- Get hired at the same company upon graduation

- Neither of them negotiate their starting salaries

Arrival

MadYaker wrote: »

It's relevant to this thread because it expains what the gender pay gap is and what causes it and this thread is about the gender pay gap.

I'm still reading though it and it's kind of changed my mind of this issue. I used to think discrimination was the main cause but it's mostly just down to women choosing different career paths which pay less like techers or nurses earn less than someone of similar experience in say engineering or IT. Also the fact that women have kids doesn't help because every time they do they drop out of work for the guts of a year (maternity leave) which is obviously going to slow down their career progression, especially if they have a few kids. Not sure how you get around that one though.

Get rid of maternity and paternity leave and offer, say, 1-2 years parental leave for the parents to decide how to use it as an individual couple depending on their individual circumstances. This way if the woman in the relationship wishes to miss as little work as possible in order to reduce the amount of time out of work to help her career she can do so. This gives everyone a bit of flexibility if they choose to have kids. And of course that's also a big factor which seems to be overlooked a lot; having kids is a personal choice. If you (man or woman) choose to have kids you should be consciously considering these kinds of things effecting your career anyway

Silentcorner

MadYaker wrote: »

Nah thats all rubbish. There's nothing more pathetic than a man who plays the victim like this. Grow a pair you're making the rest of us look bad. The old soviet states also had famines where tens of millions died and secret police who abducted and mureder people at will. It wouldn't be an improvement.

What is all rubbish???

Grow a pair of what?? Who is the rest of us??

What are you on about, you were the one getting sucked into all this gender pay gap nonsense.

I'm not a victim of this discrimination, but there are companies all over this country are discriminating against men in the mistaken belief that there is a gender pay gap...try being a man in a myriad of multinationals or public bodies that is trying to win a promotion these days, because if you convince a number of simpletons that such gender pay gap exists, then something needs to be done about it.

I'm not the one making anyone look bad...

Arrival

MadYaker wrote: »

Yeah. Who ever turned this into an issue should never have used the term gender pay gap. Not suitable. I thought I knew what this was about but I didn't, the OECD article is teaching me, so thats why interesting to me at least!

To be honest having read about it I'm confused as to why this is such an issue? If women choose career paths that pay less then obviously there's going to a difference in wages between the genders.

Id be interested to read a study that compared the figues within a single profession, say IT or maybe something that has closer to a 50:50 split between men and women. I suspect this gap wouldn't be as prominent then.

Ahhh, there we are, another one has seen the logical light! Yes, if a study comparing equal people found a genuine pay gap then it would be outrageous and absolutely worth discussing and tackling. In that case the woman, or man, paid less would be genuine victims of discrimination

Silentcorner

The only good thing to come out of this gender pay gap nonsense is how completely unreliable anything relating to women's issues has become, how the people influencing policies are distorting stats to mislead people time and time again.

Question everything and don't depend on media to inform you.

MadYaker

I'll hold my hands up and admit I briefly swallowed the propaganda on this one. At least I'm open to having my mind changed. It might be no harm to try and make certain career paths more opening or welcoming to women though.

I work for a medium sized irish engineering firm and on my team there's 14 lads and 2 women, all engineers of varying sorts. I see no reason why it couldn't be 50:50, there are no aspects of the job that a woman couldn't do and the two woemn that we have are both great. Has anyone done a study to figure out why women don't choose career paths like engineering or IT? Women tend to be higher achievers than men in education.

Silentcorner

MadYaker wrote: »

I'll hold my hands up and admit I briefly swallowed the propaganda on this one. At least I'm open to having my mind changed. It might be no harm to try and make certain career paths more opening or welcoming to women though.

I work for a medium sized irish engineering firm and on my team there's 14 lads and 2 women, all engineers of varying sorts. I see no reason why it couldn't be 50:50, there are no aspects of the job that a woman couldn't do and the two woemn that we have are both great. Has anyone done a study to figure out why women don't choose career paths like engineering or IT? Women tend to be higher achievers than men in education.

It is very simple, women choose different career paths, there is nothing at all wrong with it....it is a consequence of living in a part of the world where we all exercise freedom of choice.

The way we educate our boys and girls better suits girls, hence the higher marks, although there are studies that exists that show female teachers are more inclined to mark girls higher than boys, I couldn't say whether I would agree with that.

When it comes to education there are massive gender inequalities and we seem to be making it worse but there is no one having that conversation!!

Arrival

MadYaker wrote: »

I'll hold my hands up and admit I briefly swallowed the propaganda on this one. At least I'm open to having my mind changed. It might be no harm to try and make certain career paths more opening or welcoming to women though.

I work for a medium sized irish engineering firm and on my team there's 14 lads and 2 women, all engineers of varying sorts. I see no reason why it couldn't be 50:50, there are no aspects of the job that a woman couldn't do and the two woemn that we have are both great. Has anyone done a study to figure out why women don't choose career paths like engineering or IT? Women tend to be higher achievers than men in education.

The best thing to do is improve the information provided to the youth regarding career paths and things will naturally self balance in the future accordingly. This whole wish to have a 50:50 split is ridiculous. Everyone as an individual needs to and should make their own decisions according to their own personal wishes. If the majority of women wish to be nurses, teachers, designers, make up artists etc. then that is completely okay and should be accepted. It just seems like some feminists find issue with this and it's frustrating. And unfortunately now we have the scenario where companies, and even public sector organisations, are implementing gender quotas based off of these bull**** pay gap claims which is completely unfair and, ironically, discriminatory. Plus it introduces the scenario where you may have a better qualified and experienced candidate passed over for a position simply because the hiring managers are required to get someone who's female/male in order to balance the gender quota.

Career guidance campaigns which provide information about each industry and career path, including experiences from men and women in those industries, would be good. This way young girls get exposed to the reality that there are women in every industry and they really have the ability to choose any industry that interests them. Eventually things will balance themselves out naturally. It won't be a 50:50 split but it'll be fair. It's all about equality of opportunity, NOT equality of outcome. We're all individuals, adult men and women are capable of making their own decisions and the results/consequences are theirs to live with and change if they wish. We can't force anyone to do something just because it would please some OCD feminists to see a 50:50 statistic

By the way, I always admire someone who's willing to put their pride aside and admit they were wrong and show they're learning. It's a sign of intelligence and someone who places more importance in developing themselves than just wanting to be right in an argument. None of us know everything, and we never will, but we definitely get closer when we actually allow ourselves to be wrong and learn what's right. Logic, reason and facts should always prevail above all else, especially personal feelings

boring accountant

tobsey wrote: »

Those programs don't exist. You might come back in on an equivalent pay level after maternity/parental leave, but you won't just be given a promotion.

Bollocks. Someone at my work came back after 9 months of maternity leave and was promoted during the next round of promotions because she’s good at her job. This is despite the fact she was on reduced hours.

In the aggregate people get paid in accordance with the value they bring to the company. People like to use sexism as an excuse when the reality is they just weren’t good enough.

Gynoid

MadYaker wrote: »

I'll hold my hands up and admit I briefly swallowed the propaganda on this one. At least I'm open to having my mind changed. It might be no harm to try and make certain career paths more opening or welcoming to women though.

I work for a medium sized irish engineering firm and on my team there's 14 lads and 2 women, all engineers of varying sorts. I see no reason why it couldn't be 50:50, there are no aspects of the job that a woman couldn't do and the two woemn that we have are both great. Has anyone done a study to figure out why women don't choose career paths like engineering or IT? Women tend to be higher achievers than men in education.

Fair play to you for changing your mind by researching and being open As a woman I find the pay gap bolloxology to be infantilising. There is an earnings gap over a lifetime but it is logical and reasonable.

There are lots of studies as to why men and women choose different careers. Mostly because men and women ON AVERAGE have different interests. Which is grand. And actually makes people happier.

Also, at some point, people, be they men or women, have to put their hands up and acknowledge that raising children and pursuing a demanding career are actually hard to make compatible. I have no idea how women manage to do the long commutes, long hours, after work engagements, extra study and still genuinely have time to give small children the oceans of time and contact they need on a human level. It must be terribly stressful. Dividing that work between Mam and Dad might go a long way in the first few years, in terms of parental leave, but it has to be said then that those people who are childless and equally good workers cannot lose out in careers to those who have taken significant leave, men or women. Also women give birth and often breastfeed so are by nature the first carers for infants. Later after weaning it can be evenly divided and can be to the childs advantage. The Dads I know raising small children fulltime for a few years do an equally fabulous job to the Mammys. I have known quite a few who took a break from work to do so.


In many ways the root of the problems lie in a self limiting denial of human nature. I dont see what is wrong with working openly with the reality of human life.


(If negotiating pay is part of the job then if someone else does it better than you then they did that part of the job better. It is harsh and I would be very bad at such negotiating myself, but that is life.)

MadYaker

MadYaker wrote: »

Also the fact that women have kids doesn't help because every time they do they drop out of work for the guts of a year (maternity leave) which is obviously going to slow down their career progression, especially if they have a few kids. Not sure how you get around that one though.

Women who don't have children typically do better in terms of their career path and get paid more than males in their own industries. The studies into Solicitors in the US/Canada showed that women outperformed their male colleagues, but typically lost that advantage once they reached the upper levels of their professions. Having more work with the monetary return doesn't appeal so much when you're already earning big money.

This is simply a difference between males and females.

As for maternity leave, it shouldn't be got around. Many women, and the males who are single/married but don't have children shouldn't be penalised for the choices of others. Having children is a choice. Women who choose to have children already have many options to gain from the state.

Sarahdunners wrote: »

What if there is actually a gender pay gap, how would you feel?

I am curious to know if the men on here are denying there is a gender pay gap (in the face of overwhelming evidence that there is one)

Due to:
1) feeling guilt
2) not seeing it because they don't have to see it
3) not wanting to see it, because the gender pay gap benefits them.

I am curious - how many reports, statistics , facts and research could I post , and someone would still say it is a myth.

I really wish those spouting about the Gender pay gap would use the search function here on boards. This topic has been done multiple times, and the research is all there to be read. Which flies in the face of your statement for "overwhelming evidence" that there is one.

spurious

Silentcorner wrote:

When it comes to education there are massive gender inequalities and we seem to be making it worse but there is no one having that conversation!!

Actually they are, but don't let that impede the AH bandwagon.

Heres Johnny

I've been in 4 jobs since I graduated from university mainly in financial and accounting positions and I have worked alongside roughly 100 people closely. I don't know what any of them earned but I know one thing for sure, out of the star performers they were all male.

In my position now I am general manager and stand in financial controller of a manufacturing company and the admin/accounting/support roles are a mix of male and female 50/50

The men are infinitely better at just getting things done and making a big decision, the women can't make a decision to save their lives and this was the same in my previous roles.

The management are all male, they've progressed from other positions within the company.

This might sound like a generalisation, but all the women I work with now are clock watchers, gone for lunch together bang on time, back bang on time too. Leave bang on 5 o clock, you could set your watch by them.

Some men do too and I do when required, but in a busy period or when things go wrong I guarantee you it's the men holding the Fort.

So, whoever asked what Ireland has done to close the gap should be asking what women have done to close the gap.....

I love my fiance, she earns well, I'd say she's good at her job so there's no misogyny on my part, I coached women's sports teams for many years, I actually prefer the company of women and I would count women as some of my dearest, closest friends but my experience in the workforce just leads me to believe that men are far, far more productive and isn't that what would count if you were the one paying for an employee?
I know it would be for me.

Sarahdunners

Heres Johnny wrote: »

I've been in 4 jobs since I graduated from university mainly in financial and accounting positions and I have worked alongside roughly 100 people closely. I don't know what any of them earned but I know one thing for sure, out of the star performers they were all male.

In my position now I am general manager and stand in financial controller of a manufacturing company and the admin/accounting/support roles are a mix of male and female 50/50

The men are infinitely better at just getting things done and making a big decision, the women can't make a decision to save their lives and this was the same in my previous roles.

The management are all male, they've progressed from other positions within the company.

This might sound like a generalisation, but all the women I work with now are clock watchers, gone for lunch together bang on time, back bang on time too. Leave bang on 5 o clock, you could set your watch by them.

Some men do too and I do when required, but in a busy period or when things go wrong I guarantee you it's the men holding the Fort.

So, whoever asked what Ireland has done to close the gap should be asking what women have done to close the gap.....

I love my fiance, she earns well, I'd say she's good at her job so there's no misogyny on my part, I coached women's sports teams for many years, I actually prefer the company of women and I would count women as some of my dearest, closest friends but my experience in the workforce just leads me to believe that men are far, far more productive and isn't that what would count if you were the one paying for an employee?
I know it would be for me.

"The men are just infinitely better"

Do you know if you said that at your workplace, there would be a case brought against you for gender discrimination.

The things said on here!

It would be like me saying , "The whites are just infinitely better than the blacks"

Really shocking stuff said on here.

Sarahdunners

Deleted User wrote: »

Women who don't have children typically do better in terms of their career path and get paid more than males in their own industries. The studies into Solicitors in the US/Canada showed that women outperformed their male colleagues, but typically lost that advantage once they reached the upper levels of their professions. Having more work with the monetary return doesn't appeal so much when you're already earning big money.

This is simply a difference between males and females.

As for maternity leave, it shouldn't be got around. Many women, and the males who are single/married but don't have children shouldn't be penalised for the choices of others. Having children is a choice. Women who choose to have children already have many options to gain from the state.



I really wish those spouting about the Gender pay gap would use the search function here on boards. This topic has been done multiple times, and the research is all there to be read. Which flies in the face of your statement for "overwhelming evidence" that there is one.

I'm laughing at you - thinking that boards.ie is a feasible source for research purposes.

I have quoted studies, that have been carried out by economic researchers.

Dodge

Heres Johnny wrote: »

In my position now I am general manager ...

(some of my staff) can't make a decision to save their lives

(some of the staff) I work with now are clock watchers

You sound like a **** general manager mate

Sarahdunners

From that OECD report:

"Women still earn considerably lower than men in all OECD countries",

Why do you think that is?

Why do you think that we have always had an 80% male government in Ireland? Because of sheer discrimination.

You are aware that you live in a country, where the political parties were told to nominate 30% women , or lose their funding. You are aware of that discrimination being tackled right?

I feel like I am talking to people - who aren't even aware of anything that goes on in their own country.

Calina

greencap wrote: »

Yeah but the percentage differences in who is doing a dirty job reflect the difference in overall pay.

For every lad laboring on a site, or lifting bins, there is not a female counterpart.

Far from it. And that explains at least a sizeable part of the difference in earnings between males and females.

These are not the well paid jobs making the difference. But a seriously underpaid, and massively responsible job, done primarily by women is child care.

In fact, a key issue is that work done by women is structurally undervalued. You may think dirt is the issue but there is no reason for that to be the difference. Arguably caring professions are chronically undervalued rather than dirt being overvalued.

The pay gap is not just jobs, it is endemic assumption that women have to prove themselves and men are of course qualified by default.

Sarahdunners

I can't believe some one (Here's Johnny) said

"The men are just infinitely better" in 2019.

No, Here's Johnny - men and women are both human beings, and are equal.

Drag yourself into the 21st century

Calina

Heres Johnny wrote: »

I've been in 4 jobs since I graduated from university mainly in financial and accounting positions and I have worked alongside roughly 100 people closely. I don't know what any of them earned but I know one thing for sure, out of the star performers they were all male.

In my position now I am general manager and stand in financial controller of a manufacturing company and the admin/accounting/support roles are a mix of male and female 50/50

The men are infinitely better at just getting things done and making a big decision, the women can't make a decision to save their lives and this was the same in my previous roles.

The management are all male, they've progressed from other positions within the company.

This might sound like a generalisation, but all the women I work with now are clock watchers, gone for lunch together bang on time, back bang on time too. Leave bang on 5 o clock, you could set your watch by them.

Some men do too and I do when required, but in a busy period or when things go wrong I guarantee you it's the men holding the Fort.

So, whoever asked what Ireland has done to close the gap should be asking what women have done to close the gap.....

I love my fiance, she earns well, I'd say she's good at her job so there's no misogyny on my part, I coached women's sports teams for many years, I actually prefer the company of women and I would count women as some of my dearest, closest friends but my experience in the workforce just leads me to believe that men are far, far more productive and isn't that what would count if you were the one paying for an employee?
I know it would be for me.

My experience is that men who thought they were star performers usually left a sh1tload of problems after them. Seems to be the case here too since the women are clearly nowvery demotivated. Your post is profoundly misogynistic,I don't care how many women's sports teams you have coached. I have been in the job market for 25 years and the very worst managers I have seen were all Male. But that's because there were very few women.

Sarahdunners

I think that if someone in real life read Here's Johnny's post, they would presume that it was an article from the 1950's.

Well I hope you catch yourself out with your own talk, I hope you say that rubbish at your workplace, it is against the law to say that - you know, and I hope that some one sues you really quickly.

Silentcorner

spurious wrote: »

Actually they are, but don't let that impede the AH bandwagon.

Good stuff...I had no idea.

Care to elaborate? I'd be interested in hearing what is changing.

Silentcorner

Sarahdunners wrote: »

From that OECD report:

"Women still earn considerably lower than men in all OECD countries",

Why do you think that is?

Why do you think that we have always had an 80% male government in Ireland? Because of sheer discrimination.

You are aware that you live in a country, where the political parties were told to nominate 30% women , or lose their funding. You are aware of that discrimination being tackled right?

I feel like I am talking to people - who aren't even aware of anything that goes on in their own country.

Are you deliberately ignoring what is staring you in the face.

No one is disagreeing with you that women earn less.

The reason women earn less is what we are disagreeing on...

We have 80% male representation because not enough women want to get elected, I'm willing to bet that 80% of people who fail to get elected are male also.

Are you aware, that despite the anti democratic quota of 30% political parties are still struggling to convince women to run for election?

What else do you wish to blame men for...

Can you not see how infantile all this is...people make different choices...feminists aren't happy with the choices women make...and here we all are!

Silentcorner

Calina wrote: »

My experience is that men who thought they were star performers usually left a sh1tload of problems after them. Seems to be the case here too since the women are clearly nowvery demotivated. Your post is profoundly misogynistic,I don't care how many women's sports teams you have coached. I have been in the job market for 25 years and the very worst managers I have seen were all Male. But that's because there were very few women.

If all your managers, or most of your managers are poor...do you not think that maybe you are the problem?

Heres Johnny

Address the elephant in the room and stop crying foul all the time, if you want something go get it and stop whining. There's even some boards now that are insisting on certain number of women on them and imposing quotas either because women don't want to be on them or aren't the best candidates but want to be seen to be inclusive. Tokenism.