Irish Family Law - Court Order ( Access )

Deedee3

How can an access order granted by the family court get enforced? Guards wont get involved but then how can it be put in place if the other parent refuses regularly....

Mother of my children , aged 9&5, has withheld access for the last 3.5months (she does this regularly) informs me the children don't want to see me, informs them of any contact where I'm bad mouthing her, and has reported me to social services with false allegations of physical abuse (case closed x4). She has blocked all contact through my 9yo phone also. She also refused me access on my youngest 5th birthday and over the Christmas.

I just want to see my children. If they do not want to see me then that's fine but as far as the 5yo is involved, surely at that age they have no say??

If anyone has any advice ,information that's of help, or has been through similar, I would be most grateful.

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

It sounds like you’re dealing with parental alienation. If you have an access order in place already, you need to get in touch with the court clerk, and summons your ex for breaching the order. She’ll need to have an excellent reason for denying access, and the Judge won’t accept “they didn’t wanna go that day”

Best of luck.

ubs69

You can apply for an access enforcement order , legal aid is not generally available for breach of access , best go it alone , report breach of access to guards, get the pulse number , don't let them fob you off, you should get a hearing in a few weeks if you go before the judge and explain

Deedee3

ubs69 wrote: »

You can apply for an access enforcement order , legal aid is not generally available for breach of access , best go it alone , report breach of access to guards, get the pulse number , don't let them fob you off, you should get a hearing in a few weeks if you go before the judge and explain

Yes I have been doing all of that. Wasnt aware of an enforcement order for access though. I only have a breech put in, and no doubt I'll be told to put another order in. Dont want to spend their childhood in and out of court.

Parental alienation appears to be not visible in my case. Even though theres so much proof.

I just want to see my kids....

Deedee3

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy wrote: »

It sounds like you’re dealing with parental alienation. If you have an access order in place already, you need to get in touch with the court clerk, and summons your ex for breaching the order. She’ll need to have an excellent reason for denying access, and the Judge won’t accept “they didn’t wanna go that day”

Best of luck.

Thanks.

The judge has previously ordered a report to be done but when she was contacted by the physiological report person she abused them and so I've to request another physiological report person to carry it out... its delay tactics

ubs69

Try us the system , unfortunately that's all we have , you only need 2 breaches to go back to court , if she constantly refuses , you got to report and go back for another enforcement order , let them pile up , at least you can show your kids you tried ,,,,, at the end of the day it's her who controls access , no matter what

Deedee3

ubs69 wrote: »

Try us the system , unfortunately that's all we have , you only need 2 breaches to go back to court , if she constantly refuses , you got to report and go back for another enforcement order , let them pile up , at least you can show your kids you tried ,,,,, at the end of the day it's her who controls access , no matter what

So the reality is the mother can give/stop access and nothing happens to her... seems a bit unfair. The threat of imprisonment is obviously just to try force control over the mothers intentions.

ubs69

Now your getting the picture , it's hard to know what to do , ,, do you fight in court stand up for your ex ,,, or tow the line keep quiet and beg to see your kids without upsetting the ex

Deedee3

ubs69 wrote: »

Now your getting the picture , it's hard to know what to do , ,, do you fight in court stand up for your ex ,,, or tow the line keep quiet and beg to see your kids without upsetting the ex

I dont acknowledge the ex inside or outside of the courts, apart from requesting to see my kids which I'm told no constantly. In court I leave the decision up to the judge and speak truthfully of events that have happened, with proof of back and forth communication on paper print outs. I've no respect or sympathy for the person who has dragged my children into an adult situation caused by her own decision making.

Payton

ubs69 wrote: »

You can apply for an access enforcement order , legal aid is not generally available for breach of access , best go it alone , report breach of access to guards, get the pulse number , don't let them fob you off, you should get a hearing in a few weeks if you go before the judge and explain

This ^^^ I personally know a guy who was refused access when he went to pick up his kids on his access days. She refused to allow the kids to go on plenty of occasions. He went to the Garda made an official complaints and pulse numbers etc, on his next date in court he showed the judge the records he kept and asked the Garda in the court to check the information on the pulse system. The guys ex was warned not to refuse access again...within 2 months she was back in court for the same and spent a night in prison courtesy of the state and for the last 8 yrs she has been as nice as pie.
OP document everything if you need too and have the means to back it up pluse numbers etc.

Deedee3

Payton wrote: »

This ^^^ I personally know a guy who was refused access when he went to pick up his kids on his access days. She refused to allow the kids to go on plenty of occasions. He went to the Garda made an official complaints and pulse numbers etc, on his next date in court he showed the judge the records he kept and asked the Garda in the court to check the information on the pulse system. The guys ex was warned not to refuse access again...within 2 months she was back in court for the same and spent a night in prison courtesy of the state and for the last 8 yrs she has been as nice as pie.
OP document everything if you need too and have the means to back it up pluse numbers etc.

Was this in Ireland?
This has already happened with my previous breech, although imprisonment didnt happen just verbally warned. When in court she makes up alleged physical abuse towards the kids but like I've stated when investigated by social services it's all a pack of lies. It's just unnecessary and I'm more annoyed with the fact that she gets away with making these allegations and when found untrue nothing happens.

It's also even more frustrating to know shes informing my kids of all of her lies and innocent as they are sure its believed.

Cork Trucker

My child is/was alienated, even though I have access now it’s been back end forth for years. The damage is irreparably done now. I can see the mother’s ways and attitude in the child during my access, fathers rights in this country are next to non existent even with a court order in hand.

Deedee3

Cork Trucker wrote: »

My child is/was alienated, even though I have access now it’s been back end forth for years. The damage is irreparably done now. I can see the mother’s ways and attitude in the child during my access, fathers rights in this country are next to non existent even with a court order in hand.

Its shameful that the obvious alienator doesnt receive firm consequences.... can I ask how you managed to regain your access over the years? Does breaching access actually result in time in prison as a way of obtaining order of the court.?

Cork Trucker

Deedee3 wrote: »

Its shameful that the obvious alienator doesnt receive firm consequences.... can I ask how you managed to regain your access over the years? Does breaching access actually result in time in prison as a way of obtaining order of the court.?

I’ve kept battling and when I was knocked down in the district court, which was frequently, I kept appealing,I’ve never once lost an appeal in the circuit court. Any time I’ve brought breach of access proceedings they’ve been struck out. My ex has never been penalised or threatened with a penalty if she breaches a court order, if I don’t pay maintenance on the other hand....................



As regards the alienation, the damage is done. I know there won’t be a relationship there post 18, the child is nearly 13.

Deedee3

Cork Trucker wrote: »

I’ve kept battling and when I was knocked down in the district court, which was frequently, I kept appealing,I’ve never once lost an appeal in the circuit court. Any time I’ve brought breach of access proceedings they’ve been struck out. My ex has never been penalised or threatened with a penalty if she breaches a court order, if I don’t pay maintenance on the other hand....................



As regards the alienation, the damage is done. I know there won’t be a relationship there post 18, the child is nearly 13.

That's awful!!

I guess the system is there to lean on only for the person who's doing the most damage. Ok so my thing is a breech of access which was ordered back in 2017 so I cant appeal it as the 14days have passed. Hopefully my upcoming breech of access will reinforce the original order and that way I can appeal it through the circuit court.

I thought the circuit court had more control over enforcing the orders??? Seems pointless even attending at this stage, then again if I dont turn up theres a warrant for my arrest so it's a lose lose situation realistically.

Can I ask how you regained your access though surely your child was forced then by the mother to attend so she doesnt have to go back and forth to court??? Or did she find someone new to distract her from the ongoing control with your access?? Sorry I'm just curious as to how anyone actually regains access after being told no for so long and including alienation..

Cork Trucker

Deedee3 wrote: »

That's awful!!

I guess the system is there to lean on only for the person who's doing the most damage. Ok so my thing is a breech of access which was ordered back in 2017 so I cant appeal it as the 14days have passed. Hopefully my upcoming breech of access will reinforce the original order and that way I can appeal it through the circuit court.

I thought the circuit court had more control over enforcing the orders??? Seems pointless even attending at this stage, then again if I dont turn up theres a warrant for my arrest so it's a lose lose situation realistically.

Can I ask how you regained your access though surely your child was forced then by the mother to attend so she doesnt have to go back and forth to court??? Or did she find someone new to distract her from the ongoing control with your access?? Sorry I'm just curious as to how anyone actually regains access after being told no for so long and including alienation..

The court always errs on the side of caution when jailing a parent, namely the custodian parent. The non custodian is hammered even if they have kids with someone else.

The circuit court is more rigorous in enforcing access such as not tolerating the crocodile tears from the mother.

If you don’t turn up a warrant can be issued if the other party made the application, if you made it then it will just be struck out.

You can apply for an extension of time by having the matter set aside, this is solely at the discretion of the judge, only once was I refused, on appeal of that I was granted my extension to appeal.

The child just goes with me, I collect from the school nowadays, the child has said she hopes I die of cancer and I’m narcissistic but still tries to get what she can from me.

When her solicitor said on multiple occasions the child doesn’t want to go on access the judge says she is too young. I have a court ordered report that all but proves the child is alienated, the mother denies it though, said that the child can decide for herself. My consistency is on record with the court and that every time it breaks down it’s the same old broken record from the mother. I’m blamed for everything, literally everything. The fact I have a large family with my now wife and am with her since the child in question was born was put to the court who were impressed with my stability , I believe this to be a big part in winning my appeals. The mother has other children she does similar to their fathers and isn’t in a settled relationship. Also she’s trying everything to get the child diagnosed with a disability to milk the welfare system ever more. She has never worked a day in her life.

Deedee3

Cork Trucker wrote: »

The court always errs on the side of caution when jailing a parent, namely the custodian parent. The non custodian is hammered even if they have kids with someone else.

The circuit court is more rigorous in enforcing access such as not tolerating the crocodile tears from the mother.

If you don’t turn up a warrant can be issued if the other party made the application, if you made it then it will just be struck out.

You can apply for an extension of time by having the matter set aside, this is solely at the discretion of the judge, only once was I refused, on appeal of that I was granted my extension to appeal.

The child just goes with me, I collect from the school nowadays, the child has said she hopes I die of cancer and I’m narcissistic but still tries to get what she can from me.

When her solicitor said on multiple occasions the child doesn’t want to go on access the judge says she is too young. I have a court ordered report that all but proves the child is alienated, the mother denies it though, said that the child can decide for herself. My consistency is on record with the court and that every time it breaks down it’s the same old broken record from the mother. I’m blamed for everything, literally everything. The fact I have a large family with my now wife and am with her since the child in question was born was put to the court who were impressed with my stability , I believe this to be a big part in winning my appeals. The mother has other children she does similar to their fathers and isn’t in a settled relationship. Also she’s trying everything to get the child diagnosed with a disability to milk the welfare system ever more. She has never worked a day in her life.

Ok. So the circuit court is the way forward to enforce some form of 'faiirness' or 'fathers rights'.

I'm going through divorce with this person also but shes delaying everything.....
So saying that the report ordered by the court is now in limbo because the mother has abused the person going to do the report so I've to go back to court to appoint another psychiatrist or whatever their title is. Another delay tactic.

Jesus that's horrible for you to hear that coming out of the mouth of a child that cant see traits of you in them.... that's completely disturbing! So with the report that proves the mother to be alienating the kid is more or less how the courts agreed to access?? Kids will always go for presents I guess and as they get older if mammy refuses sure you're the atm which I'd say is bet into the childs head. Ugh that boils my blood.

The mother of mine is undiagnosed herself I'd say.... she sat my kids down and told them I've moved on with my new happy family and dont have time to spend with them, along with trying to get me done for physical abuse towards the kids (which in reality has NEVER happened) but each time social services investigated me it was case closed because the children when questioned told the truth!

Bad parenting to say the least.

MissShihTzu

My brother is going through similar at the moment with the mother of his youngest child. He hasn't seen him for 2.5 years, as the mother has simply disappeared and it's proving difficult to trace her. The mother has undiagnosed mental health issues as well as being a pathological liar. She will continue to lie, even when caught out in them.

I told him and now I'm telling you guys. Hang tough. It's hard and bloody expensive, but hang in there. Remember - the children will not always be small, and they are a lot smarter than you might think. They will figure out the truth for themselves later on.

I always think of what Judge Judy has often said - If you alienate a child from a loving parent for no good reason, eventually they will hate the alienating parent.

Deedee3

MissShihTzu wrote: »

My brother is going through similar at the moment with the mother of his youngest child. He hasn't seen him for 2.5 years, as the mother has simply disappeared and it's proving difficult to trace her. The mother has undiagnosed mental health issues as well as being a pathological liar. She will continue to lie, even when caught out in them.

I told him and now I'm telling you guys. Hang tough. It's hard and bloody expensive, but hang in there. Remember - the children will not always be small, and they are a lot smarter than you might think. They will figure out the truth for themselves later on.

I always think of what Judge Judy has often said - If you alienate a child from a loving parent for no good reason, eventually they will hate the alienating parent.

For me waiting for that person to be caught out is too long of a wait. My kids are suffering at the hands of the person they believe is protecting and loving towards them, when it's the complete opposite. Kids shouldnt have to go through this out of nothing else other than pure resentment towards me.

If only judge Judy was over here, thered be very empty court rooms and the caring, minority, fathers would actually get to see their kids childhood before it's too late and tarnished with alienation.

Cork Trucker

Deedee3 wrote: »

Ok. So the circuit court is the way forward to enforce some form of 'faiirness' or 'fathers rights'.

I'm going through divorce with this person also but shes delaying everything.....
So saying that the report ordered by the court is now in limbo because the mother has abused the person going to do the report so I've to go back to court to appoint another psychiatrist or whatever their title is. Another delay tactic.

Jesus that's horrible for you to hear that coming out of the mouth of a child that cant see traits of you in them.... that's completely disturbing! So with the report that proves the mother to be alienating the kid is more or less how the courts agreed to access?? Kids will always go for presents I guess and as they get older if mammy refuses sure you're the atm which I'd say is bet into the childs head. Ugh that boils my blood.

The mother of mine is undiagnosed herself I'd say.... she sat my kids down and told them I've moved on with my new happy family and dont have time to spend with them, along with trying to get me done for physical abuse towards the kids (which in reality has NEVER happened) but each time social services investigated me it was case closed because the children when questioned told the truth!

Bad parenting to say the least.

I didn't marry her thank god, i feel for you in that regard, my understanding is that you are liable to maintain her as well as a result if she seeks it?

By abusing the person who is doing the report is preventing them exposing her and her wrongs, it's strategic to say the least, they speak to the child one on one, my ex prevented it the first time via the child, the child said she wanted her mother there, the second time it didn't happen, then they got the real truth. The child didn't say one positive thing about me, they put it in black and white that the child is exposed to negativity about me which is accurate as her mother, maternal family, friends etc have a vendetta against me.

It's water off a ducks back to me what she says if i'm honest, i'm not in the slightest bit insulted or hurt.

The courts could see what the mother was doing to try and stop the access and then me fighting long and hard over 13 years, access initially stops because of sicknesses which only occur on access days, the child is in school either side of the access having miraculously been cured overnight. I'm convinced the mother suffers from bipolar i really am, but again that is only speculation on my side.

Yes i'm seen as an ATM, if the money is being handed out i get cooperation to an extend only, if i spend what she wants for her mother and half siblings on top of that then she'll fully cooperate, but it must be on her terms only.

Social services were involved in my case initially as well, she had social workers convinced i was being violent towards her, all i will say is if you get a female judge then the likelihood of a man getting a good result significantly reduces. I could write a book on it all. In the 13 years i've gone from 1-3 years at a time without access and all the while getting messages threatening enforcement proceedings if i stop paying maintenance.

Cork Trucker

MissShihTzu wrote: »

I always think of what Judge Judy has often said - If you alienate a child from a loving parent for no good reason, eventually they will hate the alienating parent.

That definitely won't happen in my case, never before have i seen a child to be so like their mother from a mental aspect, some days i think i'm dealing with a 13 year old version of her.

MissShihTzu

Cork Trucker wrote: »

That definitely won't happen in my case, never before have i seen a child to be so like their mother from a mental aspect, some days i think i'm dealing with a 13 year old version of her.

I don't know about that. And I don't think you should think like that, although I appreciate you're the child's father and therefore will know better than I.

The child is only 13 and therefore very impressionable. Of course her mother's influence will be strong. You are the father and your input (when able) is equally important. It's down to you to be the counter balance in your daughter's life. Don't let Mum have it all her own way.

Deedee3

Cork Trucker wrote: »

I didn't marry her thank god, i feel for you in that regard, my understanding is that you are liable to maintain her as well as a result if she seeks it?

By abusing the person who is doing the report is preventing them exposing her and her wrongs, it's strategic to say the least, they speak to the child one on one, my ex prevented it the first time via the child, the child said she wanted her mother there, the second time it didn't happen, then they got the real truth. The child didn't say one positive thing about me, they put it in black and white that the child is exposed to negativity about me which is accurate as her mother, maternal family, friends etc have a vendetta against me.

It's water off a ducks back to me what she says if i'm honest, i'm not in the slightest bit insulted or hurt.

The courts could see what the mother was doing to try and stop the access and then me fighting long and hard over 13 years, access initially stops because of sicknesses which only occur on access days, the child is in school either side of the access having miraculously been cured overnight. I'm convinced the mother suffers from bipolar i really am, but again that is only speculation on my side.

Yes i'm seen as an ATM, if the money is being handed out i get cooperation to an extend only, if i spend what she wants for her mother and half siblings on top of that then she'll fully cooperate, but it must be on her terms only.

Social services were involved in my case initially as well, she had social workers convinced i was being violent towards her, all i will say is if you get a female judge then the likelihood of a man getting a good result significantly reduces. I could write a book on it all. In the 13 years i've gone from 1-3 years at a time without access and all the while getting messages threatening enforcement proceedings if i stop paying maintenance.

Shes money mad. When I left her in the first instance I was still paying her tv and stopped to which she made contact to say I was only hurting the kids by not paying for the tv....!!

Yeah hopefully the judge sees this and puts a stop to her carry on I.e. going ahead with the report. Theres nothing that brings a family closer than the hatred towards the parent who basically raised the kids whilst living in the home. Theyre like vultures ....

I wont be letting years go by with preventing me seeing them, that's not even an option. Surely the kids head is ****ed up by being handed over then refused communication to then being sent regardless if they want to go or not. Horrible tactics all to punish the other parent.

The social services allegations she makes are child minded , at one stage they were even confused as to how the allegation could've happened but still went on to investigate. Wasting resources when there's actual abuse being carried out by the person reporting.

The more I talk about it...... !!

MissShihTzu

Deedee3 wrote: »

For me waiting for that person to be caught out is too long of a wait. My kids are suffering at the hands of the person they believe is protecting and loving towards them, when it's the complete opposite. Kids shouldnt have to go through this out of nothing else other than pure resentment towards me.

If only judge Judy was over here, thered be very empty court rooms and the caring, minority, fathers would actually get to see their kids childhood before it's too late and tarnished with alienation.

I totally agree with you. There are no winners in this. And the children DO suffer. But I didn't say to wait until they are 'caught out'. That would be foolish. I'm saying kids are a lot smarter then we adults think and they will figure this out for themselves. They will work out the truth from the lies and the grey areas. I kind of know what the deal is, as I went through similar when my parent divorced (nastily) many years ago and my brother is going through similar with his youngest's Mum..

Neither of my parents were great. We had a horrendous time growing up. But we were able to work out who and what they are fairly quickly.

Deedee3

MissShihTzu wrote: »

I don't know about that. And I don't think you should think like that, although I appreciate you're the child's father and therefore will know better than I.

The child is only 13 and therefore very impressionable. Of course her mother's influence will be strong. You are the father and your input (when able) is equally important. It's down to you to be the counter balance in your daughter's life. Don't let Mum have it all her own way.

Would it be wrong to tell the actual truth to the kids when access happens ? Considering the mother has repeated such lies over and over to the child for the child to believe it..

Like I said my kids were shown emails from me in response to her malicious actions, but they weren't shown her initial comments to me

My kids are involved because their mother has it that way , but they only ever get her side. Which is complete lies.

Deedee3

MissShihTzu wrote: »

I totally agree with you. There are no winners in this. And the children DO suffer. But I didn't say to wait until they are 'caught out'. That would be foolish. I'm saying kids are a lot smarter then we adults think and they will figure this out for themselves. They will work out the truth from the lies and the grey areas. I kind of know what the deal is, as I went through similar when my parent divorced (nastily) many years ago and my brother is going through similar with his youngest's Mum..

Neither of my parents were great. We had a horrendous time growing up. But we were able to work out who and what they are fairly quickly.

Appreciate that.

At the minute I dont have access to my kids so they're only ever getting their mothers version of events. Her and all of her families input. I've even had messages from my kids saying I'm bad mouthing their mother even though I havent been in contact with her since before August and after that it was pleading to let me see them..

Woman scorned and all that.

MissShihTzu

Deedee3 wrote: »

Would it be wrong to tell the actual truth to the kids when access happens ? Considering the mother has repeated such lies over and over to the child for the child to believe it..

Yes. You are the adult. Do not sink to the level of the ex, as much as you might want to. Your ex should NEVER have shown those e-mails to the children. That scars and warps them even more. The next time you go to court, I would certainly mention that to the judge. And you should be a LOT more circumspect in what you write to your ex. NEVER rise to the bait -she is laying it, and you're taking it. Which in turn gives her more ammunition to use against you. If she texts or e-mails and starts talking rubbish or you get wound up - Ignore.


Get another phone and tell her to contact you on that. Keep all the messages and show them to the judge or social workers when needed.

Deedee3

MissShihTzu wrote: »

Yes. You are the adult. Do not sink to the level of the ex, as much as you might want to. Your ex should NEVER have shown those e-mails to the children. That scars and warps them even more. The next time you go to court, I would certainly mention that to the judge. And you should be a LOT more circumspect in what you write to your ex. NEVER rise to the bait -she is laying it, and you're taking it. Which in turn gives her more ammunition to use against you. If she texts or e-mails and starts talking rubbish or you get wound up - Ignore.


Get another phone and tell her to contact you on that. Keep all the messages and show them to the judge or social workers when needed.

I guess sometimes saying it to someone on the outset gives a better view of the consequences. Brilliant tip, hopefully I get to speak in court.

The paper trail I always keep as its through emails only due to her constantly communicating for complete nonsense.

I guess most of the time I just want her to disappear off the face of the earth. She was physically abusive towards me during out relationship, this was a regular occurrence infront of the kids. So for me being able to tell her to do one without tip toeing and taking the abuse, is an achievement. It might seem aggressive or immature but for me its given me some platform of confidence to stand up.

Cork Trucker

MissShihTzu wrote: »

I don't know about that. And I don't think you should think like that, although I appreciate you're the child's father and therefore will know better than I.

The child is only 13 and therefore very impressionable. Of course her mother's influence will be strong. You are the father and your input (when able) is equally important. It's down to you to be the counter balance in your daughter's life. Don't let Mum have it all her own way.

When i try to prevent that access magically stops.

Cork Trucker

MissShihTzu wrote: »

Yes. You are the adult. Do not sink to the level of the ex, as much as you might want to. Your ex should NEVER have shown those e-mails to the children. That scars and warps them even more. The next time you go to court, I would certainly mention that to the judge. And you should be a LOT more circumspect in what you write to your ex. NEVER rise to the bait -she is laying it, and you're taking it. Which in turn gives her more ammunition to use against you. If she texts or e-mails and starts talking rubbish or you get wound up - Ignore.


Get another phone and tell her to contact you on that. Keep all the messages and show them to the judge or social workers when needed.

This is a must for any separated parent.

Deedee3

Cork Trucker wrote: »

This is a must for any separated parent.

It's like becoming a self taught detective.