Property Market 2020

OwlsZat

OwlsZat wrote: »

Wonderful, apartment complexes not even built and already been sold off plans...


https://www.irishtimes.com/business/commercial-property/chartered-land-plans-dublin-s-tallest-tower-on-parkgate-street-1.4161368

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/commercial-property/chartered-land-seeks-buyer-for-650m-dublin-apartment-portfolio-1.3998894

where are they being sold ?

OwlsZat

bubblypop wrote: »

where are they being sold?

If your interested in buying them I suggest you contact Chartered Land directly.

OwlsZat

OwlsZat wrote: »

If your interested in buying them I suggest you contact Chartered Land directly.

seriously?
You said they were being sold, I asked a question.....
bit of a touchy answer!

19233974

SozBbz wrote: »

I don't see why people are so bothered with the buy to rent model.

I get why people are perturbed by the low numbers of new homes hitting the open market, but surely it doesn't have to be just one or the other. Yes, we need to build more for sale, but if developers want to build long term rental units also, then whats the harm.

FWIW I like the look of the proposed development above - modern urban living with good density. There will always be a market for people at a certain stage in life wanting to rent in town. No reason this shouldn't be catered for.

Also, each unit built increases capacity. Overall capacity will be what will bring stability in the longterm. Its not all about everyone buying their dreamhome, there is need for all types of properties to cater for all types of scenarios.

what about people who would like to buy an apartment in town and not live in perpetual rental uncertainty at the upper limits of affordability?

Id love to buy a new build apartment in dublin city, have been looking for over a year and havent seen a single one for sale in dublin. All that is out there is for the most part absolute sh*te ex-corporation flats.

The problem is the only people being catered for with government policy is institutional BTL landlords. I pay enough tax and will be for the rest of my life for the government to be accomodating MNC`s as opposed to hard working tax paying citizens.

So thats exactly why im so perturbed by it!! We need some bloody balance

Mic 1972

bubblypop wrote: »

where are they being sold ?

the docklands

OwlsZat

bubblypop wrote: »

seriously?
You said they were being sold, I asked a question.....
bit of a touchy answer!

Sorry, it was a bit of a touchy answer. That appears to be the companies busines model. The planning application for parkgate street also includes that so many are build to rent.

JamesMason

19233974 wrote: »

what about people who would like to buy an apartment in town and not live in perpetual rental uncertainty at the upper limits of affordability?

Id love to buy a new build apartment in dublin city, have been looking for over a year and havent seen a single one for sale in dublin. All that is out there is for the most part absolute sh*te ex-corporation flats.

The problem is the only people being catered for with government policy is institutional BTL landlords. I pay enough tax and will be for the rest of my life for the government to be accomodating MNC`s as opposed to hard working tax paying citizens.

So thats exactly why im so perturbed by it!! We need some bloody balance

Hence the recent kicking FG got in the election. Another election and they'll be destroyed

stevedublin

Mic 1972 wrote: »

the docklands

no, they're not

Mic 1972

stevedublin wrote: »

no, they're not

pk, fair enough, i thought the referenced the docklands in the article, where are they then?

sweetie

Mic 1972 wrote: »

pk, fair enough, i thought the referenced the docklands in the article, where are they then?

Beside Heuston station

coolshannagh28

JamesMason wrote: »

Hence the recent kicking FG got in the election. Another election and they'll be destroyed

Yes , people have copped on that their housing policy is tailored for large Funds and they also lost their rural vote because of their support for big processors and retailers .

SozBbz

19233974 wrote: »

what about people who would like to buy an apartment in town and not live in perpetual rental uncertainty at the upper limits of affordability?

Id love to buy a new build apartment in dublin city, have been looking for over a year and havent seen a single one for sale in dublin. All that is out there is for the most part absolute sh*te ex-corporation flats.

The problem is the only people being catered for with government policy is institutional BTL landlords. I pay enough tax and will be for the rest of my life for the government to be accomodating MNC`s as opposed to hard working tax paying citizens.

So thats exactly why im so perturbed by it!! We need some bloody balance

It’s not the fault of build to rent that other types of building aren’t happening.

It takes big money to get buildings like that built, obviously investors only think it makes sense if they hold on to the asset. The costs involved in building sites to go to 29 stories is huge. Then all the lifts, electric gates etc, they will require significant ongoing investment.

No one is actually blocking people from building to sell, but it’s obviously not compelling. Build to rent is common all over the world and need not preclude other types of development.

Mic 1972

19233974 wrote: »

what about people who would like to buy an apartment in town and not live in perpetual rental uncertainty at the upper limits of affordability?

Id love to buy a new build apartment in dublin city, have been looking for over a year and havent seen a single one for sale in dublin. All that is out there is for the most part absolute sh*te ex-corporation flats.

The problem is the only people being catered for with government policy is institutional BTL landlords. I pay enough tax and will be for the rest of my life for the government to be accomodating MNC`s as opposed to hard working tax paying citizens.

So thats exactly why im so perturbed by it!! We need some bloody balance

there are high end apt blocks in Smithfield and also in D1 where you can buy to live

nerrad01

SozBbz wrote: »

It’s not the fault of build to rent that other types of building aren’t happening.

It takes big money to get buildings like that built, obviously investors only think it makes sense if they hold on to the asset. The costs involved in building sites to go to 29 stories is huge. Then all the lifts, electric gates etc, they will require significant ongoing investment.

No one is actually blocking people from building to sell, but it’s obviously not compelling. Build to rent is common all over the world and need not preclude other types of development.

do you honestly think a situation where practically 100% of the new build apartment stock in the entire country being BTL is a good idea? during a housing crisis.

JamesMason

nerrad01 wrote: »

do you honestly think a situation where practically 100% of the new build apartment stock in the entire country being BTL is a good idea? during a housing crisis.

No I for one don't. In fact, considering the US stock market has just crashed two days in a row...I wouldn't buy toaster in this country in the coming weeks!

awec

JamesMason wrote: »

No I for one don't. In fact, considering the US stock market has just crashed two days in a row...I wouldn't buy toaster in this country in the coming weeks!

Hyperbole much?

JamesMason

awec wrote: »

Hyperbole much?

Well...there was an early bounce!

Assetbacked

Prime Time tonight doing a piece on those who are renting in Ireland and will approach retirement not owning their home despite having good jobs. It is discussing the social cost of grown adults, well past their twenties still in a house share. It's sad to see. International speculators can fcuk right off.

Baby01032012

I agree asset backed BUT I’d they don’t invest who will the govt., the councils are not investing in housing. Any state funding is going to HAP etc.

We’re a great country at creating employment but we’ve no plan to where to house those employees. When I see this week MasterCard creating 1500 new jobs I really dispair. Housing stock is like gold. And there is one type of accommodation for all. There aren’t different levels of accommodation. There are over crowing.

Mass accommodation has come from the REITS and the likes of Vesta.

Assetbacked

Baby01032012 wrote: »

I agree asset backed BUT I’d they don’t invest who will the govt., the councils are not investing in housing. Any state funding is going to HAP etc.

We’re a great country at creating employment but we’ve no plan to where to house those employees. When I see this week MasterCard creating 1500 new jobs I really dispair. Housing stock is like gold. And there is one type of accommodation for all. There aren’t different levels of accommodation. There are over crowing.

Mass accommodation has come from the REITS and the likes of Vesta.

I don't understand why the growth of the last few years can't be given a chance to bed in. The attitude of "more is better" and that we should not bite the hand that feeds is not applicable anymore yet this attitude pervades and manifests at the top level as portrayed via the likes of the IDA. I appreciate FG pursued a jobs first strategy but we are 9 years down the path with a situation which makes the younger generations seriously question the sanity of pursuing jobs first while neglecting the more meaningful aspects of a society such as health, shelter and family. What I mean by this is what good is having a job if you're commuting two hours or more per day and therefore not being able to take care of other things in your life? Or struggling from pay cheque to pay cheque due to 30%+ of your after tax salary just covering the most basic of necessities; shelter? Treating property as an asset to be speculated with or to lock up between generations of families is toxic to modern Irish society and is creating a great wealth divide.

JamesMason

Assetbacked wrote: »

I don't understand why the growth of the last few years can't be given a chance to bed in. The attitude of "more is better" and that we should not bite the hand that feeds is not applicable anymore yet this attitude pervades and manifests at the top level as portrayed via the likes of the IDA. I appreciate FG pursued a jobs first strategy but we are 9 years down the path with a situation which makes the younger generations seriously question the sanity of pursuing jobs first while neglecting the more meaningful aspects of a society such as health, shelter and family. What I mean by this is what good is having a job if you're commuting two hours or more per day and therefore not being able to take care of other things in your life? Or struggling from pay cheque to pay cheque due to 30%+ of your after tax salary just covering the most basic of necessities; shelter? Treating property as an asset to be speculated with or to lock up between generations of families is toxic to modern Irish society and is creating a great wealth divide.

And another brain drain of young Irish talent. Take a bow FG

Villa05

nerrad01 wrote:

do you honestly think a situation where practically 100% of the new build apartment stock in the entire country being BTL is a good idea? during a housing crisis.

Increasing supply where it's needed most is an improvement on building ghost estates. More should be done but by the state using an affordable model meaning lower rents for the public and a positive revenue stream for the state
Hosing crisis is easy to solve. It's the political will that is absent.

Billythekid19

Assetbacked wrote: »

I don't understand why the growth of the last few years can't be given a chance to bed in. The attitude of "more is better" and that we should not bite the hand that feeds is not applicable anymore yet this attitude pervades and manifests at the top level as portrayed via the likes of the IDA. I appreciate FG pursued a jobs first strategy but we are 9 years down the path with a situation which makes the younger generations seriously question the sanity of pursuing jobs first while neglecting the more meaningful aspects of a society such as health, shelter and family. What I mean by this is what good is having a job if you're commuting two hours or more per day and therefore not being able to take care of other things in your life? Or struggling from pay cheque to pay cheque due to 30%+ of your after tax salary just covering the most basic of necessities; shelter? Treating property as an asset to be speculated with or to lock up between generations of families is toxic to modern Irish society and is creating a great wealth divide.

A solution would be to start investing in infrastructure and relocate these big multinationals in places like Limerick, Tralee, Westport and Carrick on Shannon.
There is no reason why anyone should have to endure the misery of a commute 2 hours a day to get to work. We have an abundance of land in this country to build houses. Why not spend 250k on a 5 bed in Thurles rather than 500k for a 2 bed in Dundrum. Build proper infrastructure around Irelands forgotten towns and business will naturally come. Its a no brainer.

SozBbz

Billythekid19 wrote: »

A solution would be to start investing in infrastructure and relocate these big multinationals in places like Limerick, Tralee, Westport and Carrick on Shannon.
There is no reason why anyone should have to endure the misery of a commute 2 hours a day to get to work. We have an abundance of land in this country to build houses. Why not spend 250k on a 5 bed in Thurles rather than 500k for a 2 bed in Dundrum. Build proper infrastructure around Irelands forgotten towns and business will naturally come. Its a no brainer.

You can't just relocate multinationals.

Firstly they decide where they want to go themselves, and it is typically large urban centers for a variety of reasons.

A multinational doesnt want to limit itself to the people of a mid size town as its work force. They want to be able to attract the best, and experience shows that you get that by locating in desirable urban centers.

There is a global trend towards urbanisation and thats not going to stop to accomodate rural Ireland.

SozBbz

nerrad01 wrote: »

do you honestly think a situation where practically 100% of the new build apartment stock in the entire country being BTL is a good idea? during a housing crisis.

If you read my post, you'll see thats not what I said.

I said I don't see a problem with the build to rent model. That doesnt mean I think it should be the only show in town. The fact that developers see apartments as overly expensive to build for sale is not the fault of the build to rent investor.

And yes I'm glad that we're finally seeing a bit of density in this city (its the only way our public transport has a hope) and if this is how it gets built, so be it.

The Student

Assetbacked wrote: »

Prime Time tonight doing a piece on those who are renting in Ireland and will approach retirement not owning their home despite having good jobs. It is discussing the social cost of grown adults, well past their twenties still in a house share. It's sad to see. International speculators can fcuk right off.

I seen the same segment. The woman in the piece was 49 married with one child. You would expect people of this age to have purchased a property in their mid to late 20's which would have been the norm. So this woman would have been in her mid to late 20's in the mid to late 90's (well before the property prices went crazy) so the question to ask is why she did not.

I find it ironic that society has to take responsibility for peoples life choices? This woman seemed capable enough having rented for the last 20 yrs so has the ability to cover rent.

There are multiple threads on boards who wanted professional landlords and did not want small time landlords. Well big business will go where the money is which is why they are investing. We needed external investment during the crash, those renting now have to live with the renters wanting "professional landlords" at the expense of small time landlords.

Yes there will be a social cost as a result of this but we as a society have gone Politically correct to the extent we can't say anything for fear of being called, racist, bigoted or any other description. We are trying to please everybody when in reality nobody is being helped in the long term everything is just a "sticking plaster".

The_Conductor

Billythekid19 wrote: »

A solution would be to start investing in infrastructure and relocate these big multinationals in places like Limerick, Tralee, Westport and Carrick on Shannon.
There is no reason why anyone should have to endure the misery of a commute 2 hours a day to get to work. We have an abundance of land in this country to build houses. Why not spend 250k on a 5 bed in Thurles rather than 500k for a 2 bed in Dundrum. Build proper infrastructure around Irelands forgotten towns and business will naturally come. Its a no brainer.

The sheer misery of commuting in Dublin- isn't a sufficient deterrent for most MNCs who consistently state they want their main Irish base to be in Dublin. When their staff are polled- the majority of the 20-somethings, also, advocate a Dublin location.

Working in Dublin- with its commuting hell and frankly ridiculous accommodation issues- are not putting the multinationals off looking for their Dublin offices/distribution centres/manufacturing etc- and similarly- investing in infrastructure for Carrick, Westport, Tralee and elsewhere- is not going to be the magic bullet that some people imagine for those areas.

Yes- we need better public transport options- and above all else, a plentiful supply of affordable accommodation for our workers. However, increasingly, our young multinational and multicultural workers- are telling their managers where they are willing to locate to- and when Ireland comes up- Carrick, Westport and Tralee- do not feature on the list of places that our young workers want to migrate to (notwithstanding the commuting hell, lack of accommodation, scandalous childcare costs and cost of living issues associated with Dublin and its general environs).

We only have one city of international note in Ireland- Dublin- we're kidding ourselves when we imagine we can shovel some largess into Co. Leitrim- or the far side of Mayo- and presto, international companies will move their facilities there. I'm sorry- its wishful thinking.

19233974

SozBbz wrote: »

If you read my post, you'll see thats not what I said.

I said I don't see a problem with the build to rent model. That doesnt mean I think it should be the only show in town. The fact that developers see apartments as overly expensive to build for sale is not the fault of the build to rent investor.

And yes I'm glad that we're finally seeing a bit of density in this city (its the only way our public transport has a hope) and if this is how it gets built, so be it.

I agree with you in terms of BTL investors needing to be part of the picture, but not the whole picture but your previous post asked why people were so bothered by it??.

People are clearly bothered because its basically 100% BTL out there, at peak affordability.

You are clearly a home owner and far removed from the realities of the rental market as you cant seem to grasp that people would be bothered by the current situation.

beauf

SozBbz wrote: »

You can't just relocate multinationals.

Firstly they decide where they want to go themselves, and it is typically large urban centers for a variety of reasons.

A multinational doesnt want to limit itself to the people of a mid size town as its work force. They want to be able to attract the best, and experience shows that you get that by locating in desirable urban centers.

There is a global trend towards urbanisation and thats not going to stop to accomodate rural Ireland.

You don't have to copy everywhere else and their problems.

Its not to accommodate rural ireland. Its to improve the quality of life for the whole country.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/state-accused-of-anti-rural-bias-over-number-of-ida-site-visits-1.4133223

SozBbz

19233974 wrote: »

I agree with you in terms of BTL investors needing to be part of the picture, but not the whole picture but you asked why people were so bothered by it??.

People are clearly bothered because its basically 100% BTL out there, at peak affordability.

You are clearly a home owner and far removed from the realities of the rental market as you cant seem to grasp that people would be bothered by the current situation.

Again, not what I said. I can see why people are bothered by the affordability of housing overall, but not why the build to rent is suddenly the scapegoat.

Its good that a 29 story building is going into central(ish) Dublin. Real people will live in those units. And I also think its critical to the overall health of the city to having people live in the center - I would hate to see Dublin become a hollowed out husk like some American cities, where everyone decamps to the suburbs and the center is deserted after dark.

Build to rent are typically backed by pension funds etc. They're in it for the long run. Yes, they'll charge market rates, but rents won't always be this strong and I'd say they'll still be here as the long term asset is what they value.

The existence of these people doesn't stop the govt from either a) building themselves or b) incentivising development for affordable housing in the right locations.

And yes, I am a home owner, but last I checked, that doesn't preclude me from having an opinion.