General Premier League Thread 2019-20

TheCitizen

TheCitizen wrote: »

I'm not exaggerating. The point I make is a perfectly reasonable point. Liverpool use a lot of direct long ball football...

TheCitizen wrote: »

You play to your strengths. Liverpool have pacy forwards so the ball is often (especially early in games) launched into space behind opposing defenders for their attackers to chase and get on the end of or just press the opponent high up the pitch and get second phase. If you've got a big centre forward then you can play a long ball to him and then pick up from his knock downs. Or you put it into spaces for other attackers to chase it. Same thing.

All this shows is that you don't understand what long ball means.

It is not long passing to feet. It is long hoofing to head.

They are not the "same thing" as you suggest. They are very distinct tactics.

TheCitizen

noodler wrote: »

It's not the same thing tbh. One is percentage based where as one is actually a picked out pass to a player making a clever run.

Hmmm, I disagree. some of it is into space with the hope of a Liverpool attacker getting on the end of it but sometimes the opponent gets it and then they press them in a high pressure area. There's definitely an element of percentage involved.

noodler wrote: »

Regardless, It's certainly something Liverpool do but it's a relatively small part of their game as the 1,000 passes thing last night would tell you.

Now you saying we do it on occasion is fine but clearly the inference was that it makes up a significant part of the game plan and that's hyperbole tbh.

I think it's a big part of Liverpool's game. I think they use it early on in games and then when they get a foothold in games use other tactics.

noodler

TheCitizen wrote: »

I think it's a big part of Liverpool's game. I think they use it early on in games and then when they get a foothold in games use other tactics.

Could you edit that please? Seems you've attributed one of your own points to me in the quote.

8-10

TheCitizen wrote: »

Wouldn't work very well in the world cup in Qatar that high octane energy sapping high work rate style

They literally just won the World Cup in Qatar a few weeks ago

TheCitizen

Deleted User wrote: »

All this shows is that you don't understand what long ball means.

It is not long passing to feet. It is long hoofing to head.

They are not the "same thing" as you suggest. They are very distinct tactics.

Nah mate. I do understand what long ball means, long ball into space for your attackers to chase and to have your opponent defenders turned and running backwards towards their goal. The difference being instead of a big man like Quinn or Cas up front it's pace up front getting on the end of through balls and chasing down opposition defenders if/they get it. I know exactly what I'm looking at.

The point was made by someone else there it's not really what you normally expect from a top level team that are the European Champions for example. Essentially the spend their energy with high press and hard work chasing the long ball instead of trying to break down an opponent by passing the ball around the pitch to get through them that way. Again, when they get their foothold in the game they have the ability to do this as well, but often that initial foothold in a game is established by long ball play that you would normally associate with less expensive less "illustrious" teams.

TheCitizen

noodler wrote: »

Could you edit that please? Seems you've attributed one of your own points to me in the quote.

Edited

TheCitizen

TheCitizen wrote: »

Nah mate. I do understand what long ball means, long ball into space for your attackers to chase and to have your opponent defenders turned and running backwards towards their goal. The difference being instead of a big man like Quinn or Cas up front it's pace up front getting on the end of through balls and chasing down opposition defenders if/they get it. I know exactly what I'm looking at.

No you don't.

You just spend post after post insisting that long ball is long passing into space for people to run on to.

It isn't. It is (or really was) the style inflicted by managers like Olsen, Beck, Charlton and others. It was directing the ball to a front man's head.

TheCitizen

8-10 wrote: »

They literally just won the World Cup in Qatar a few weeks ago

Not everyone has the engines of those Liverpool players. When you have a bit more money than most others then you can purchase a better more durable engine I guess.

TheCitizen

Deleted User wrote: »

No you don't.

You just spend post after post insisting that long ball is long passing into space for people to run on to.

It isn't. It is (or really was) the style inflicted by managers like Olsen, Beck, Charlton and others. It was directing the ball to a front man's head.

it wasn't just about directing a ball at a front man's head either. The football from Charlton and Graham Taylor and others was also long ball into space and getting the opposing sides defence turned running backways towards their own goals and then pressing them to win the ball high up the pitch. Liverpool under Klopp do this as a big part of their play.

I'm not wrong. You're wrong. You don't get it and now you're getting offended.

8-10

TheCitizen wrote: »

spend their energy with high press and hard work chasing the long ball instead of trying to break down an opponent by passing the ball around the pitch to get through them that way.

Only City and Chelsea have completed more passes than Liverpool. They spend an awful lot of time passing the ball around the pitch trying to get through teams.

It’s not long balls instead of passing, it’s both. If you want to make a point about Liverpool using long balls, fine, but to say it’s instead of passing is what’s showing up your lack of knowledge.

Klopp’s tactics are a lot more extensive and changeable than people think. It’s not a single style which is why teams struggle so much against them.

TheCitizen

8-10 wrote: »

Only City and Chelsea have completed more passes than Liverpool. They spend an awful lot of time passing the ball around the pitch trying to get through teams.

It’s not long balls instead of passing, it’s both. If you want to make a point about Liverpool using long balls, fine, but to say it’s instead of passing is what’s showing up your lack of knowledge.

Klopp’s tactics are a lot more extensive and changeable than people think. It’s not a single style which is why teams struggle so much against them.

I didn't say it's instead of passing. I said it's both. I said and have been saying exactly what you just said there in bold actually but you're arguing that I didn't:pac:

ricero

Kane out with a torn hamstring. Massive blow for Jose and spurs

BullBlackNova

8-10 wrote: »

Only City and Chelsea have completed more passes than Liverpool. They spend an awful lot of time passing the ball around the pitch trying to get through teams.

It’s not long balls instead of passing, it’s both. If you want to make a point about Liverpool using long balls, fine, but to say it’s instead of passing is what’s showing up your lack of knowledge.

Klopp’s tactics are a lot more extensive and changeable than people think. It’s not a single style which is why teams struggle so much against them.

Sadly, I think most of the Sky punditry ignores your final point. Its immensely frustrating to watch people like Souness and others spout nonsense about Liverpool's "high press" which has been reduced drastically for all of the last season and a half. It was the defining feature of the team in the first few seasons and was great to watch but totally unstable and unsustainable so has been reduced.

Do we still see people like Robertson and Firmino press high up? Sure. Is it the key way in us creating and scoring, or even retrieving the ball? Not really tbh. Most of that happens in the middle of the pitch now when players like Henderson and Wijnaldum cut out passing lanes and block space and runs.

8-10

TheCitizen wrote: »

I didn't say it's instead of passing. I said it's both. I said and have been saying exactly what you just said there in bold actually but you're arguing that I didn't:pac:

Read what I quoted, you said instead

noodler

ricero wrote: »

Kane out with a torn hamstring. Massive blow for Jose and spurs

I know it's been said a million times but really think they might be a better unit without him

Son was brilliant last year when Kane was out

TheCitizen

TheCitizen wrote: »

it wasn't just about directing a ball at a front man's head either. The football from Charlton and Graham Taylor and others was also long ball into space and getting the opposing sides defence turned running backways towards their own goals and then pressing them to win the ball high up the pitch. Liverpool under Klopp do this as a big part of their play.

I'm not wrong. You're wrong. You don't get it and now you're getting offended.

Nonsense.

The football from Charlton and Taylor was all about getting it up to a front player, not "into space".

TheCitizen wrote: »

You don't get it and now you're getting offended.

TheCitizen wrote: »

The fact that some take offence to it is amusing and predictable.

TheCitizen wrote: »

I'm not slagging them for it but you appear to be taking offence. You're easily offended.

Oh no, not that "tell" or tic where you slide into repetition? Defending your position by saying everyone is offended is weak. Anyway, I'm not offended, I'm amused, you confuse them...I guess like your take on long passing and long ball...:D

TheCitizen

8-10 wrote: »

Read what I quoted, you said instead

:rolleyes:

gimli2112

noodler wrote: »

I know it's been said a million times but really think they might be a better unit without him

If you can find a Spurs supporter that'll agree with you I'll subscribe to your newsletter.

They may have done well without him last year isn't the same as they are better off when he's out. They're not a one man team but he's an important player.

noodler

gimli2112 wrote: »

If you can find a Spurs supporter that'll agree with you I'll subscribe to your newsletter.

They may have done well without him last year isn't the same as they are better off when he's out. They're not a one man team but he's an important player.

Yeah, fair.

Son, Alli, Eriksen and Moira are a nice mobile quartet which seems to lend itself to more options.

TheCitizen

Deleted User wrote: »

Nonsense.

The football from Charlton and Taylor was all about getting it up to a front player, not "into space".

It was about getting into space as well. Into channels where your attackers would chase it. It was derided as kick and rush football. Klopp does a bit of it with a much more expensively assembled side. He's not bothered, he will use whatever tactics that he sees as effective. It is amusing to see characters like you get offended when it obviously doesn't bother him to use those tactics.

Deleted User wrote: »

Oh no, not that "tell" or tic where you slide into repetition? Defending your position by saying everyone is offended is weak. Anyway, I'm not offended, I'm amused, you confuse them...I guess like your take on long passing and long ball...:D

A long pass or a long ball. It'll be less accurate because it's a long ball and there's definitely an element of percentages about it where the ball will be lost or given away and then you press high to get it back high up the pitch.

I've made my point, you're not going to like it so you'll pretend I'm saying something different so you can argue. Yawn. Tedious stuff.

citytillidie

League Cup winners will enter that Europa Conference when that starts from them all 7 teams in Europe for that season should not be in the League Cup, leaving new teams going into that 3rd tier European competition

ShamoBuc

TheCitizen wrote: »

It was about getting into space as well. Into channels where your attackers would chase it. It was derided as kick and rush football. Klopp does a bit of it with a much more expensively assembled side. He's not bothered, he will use whatever tactics that he sees as effective. It is amusing to see characters like you get offended when it obviously doesn't bother him to use those tactics.

A long pass or a long ball. It'll be less accurate because it's a long ball and there's definitely an element of percentages about it where the ball will be lost or given away and then you press high to get it back high up the pitch.

I've made my point, you're not going to like it so you'll pretend I'm saying something different so you can argue. Yawn. Tedious stuff.

I certainly agree with you on that bit.


Spurs could suffer big time without Kane, although they did pretty well without him for a spell last year I think.
Should be an interesting game v Liverpool.

Gbear

ShamoBuc wrote: »

I certainly agree with you on that bit.


Spurs could suffer big time without Kane, although they did pretty well without him for a spell last year I think.
Should be an interesting game v Liverpool.

I think Son will be out for that game as well?

3rd game of his suspension?

Speak Now

Gbear wrote: »

I think Son will be out for that game as well?

3rd game of his suspension?

Isn't he back this weekend, 3 games already served

TitianGerm

Gbear wrote: »

I think Son will be out for that game as well?

3rd game of his suspension?

FA cup is his first game back I think? Missed Brighton, Norwich and Southampton.

Fitz*

Anyone else think it's a bit weird with the timing of the Wayne Rooney stories about gambling addiction, and videos of him with recovering gambling addicts? There's something very off about it.

I mean, he literally is wearing the number 32 at Derby County because they are sponsored by online gambling site 32Red who wanted him to wear the number 32 to promote their site and there have been suggestions that they were allowed to chose his number as they are sponsoring the money for his wages.

32Red were fined £2m about 18 months ago for encouraging problem gamblers to gamble more and more money even after they lost huge sums, by giving them VIP status.

It's all a bit like a massive advert for gambling, with Rooney as the face of it.

There have also been suggestions that Rooney is on a player / coach role and the majority of the wages are falling under the coaching side as the money being spent on this department does not fall under FFP consideration where Derby are teetering very close to the line, but that's an aside.

bennyineire

citytillidie wrote: »

League Cup winners will enter that Europa Conference when that starts from them all 7 teams in Europe for that season should not be in the League Cup, leaving new teams going into that 3rd tier European competition

I'm really struggling understand what you are saying here, can you try again please or post a link for the new Euro competition

citytillidie

bennyineire wrote: »

I'm really struggling understand what you are saying here, can you try again please or post a link for the new Euro competition

There are 7 English teams in Europe 4 in the Champions League and 3 in the Europa League

Once this 3rd European Comp starts it will be 4 in the Champions League. 2 in the Europa League and 1 in the Europa Conference.

League Cup winners go into the Europa Conference, so i say those 7 teams in Europe that season should not be in the League Cup, it then gives a new team each season a shot at the Europa Conference

bangkok

Ole nominated for december manager of the month

Guy:Incognito

FitzShane wrote: »

Anyone else think it's a bit weird with the timing of the Wayne Rooney stories about gambling addiction, and videos of him with recovering gambling addicts? There's something very off about it.

The timing is because he just signed for Derby. Not seeing anything odd about it tbh.

Jurgen The German

bangkok wrote: »

Ole nominated for december manager of the month

Very much a least shytest spell nomination.

The_Kew_Tour

bangkok wrote: »

Ole nominated for december manager of the month

And it’s not even April 1st

monkey9

TheCitizen has genuinely spent the majority of last night and all of today to pretend he thinks Liverpool play like Jack Charlton's Ireland.

That's some commitment to bullsh!t, fair play.

TheCitizen

monkey9 wrote: »

TheCitizen has genuinely spent the majority of last night and all of today to pretend he thinks Liverpool play like Jack Charlton's Ireland.

That's some commitment to bullsh!t, fair play.

Nope.

Still, thanks for illustrating my original point.

Amazing fragillity and failure to grasp reality.

monkey9

TheCitizen wrote: »

Nope.

Still, thanks for illustrating my original point.

Amazing fragillity and failure to grasp reality.

:pac::pac:

marklazarcovic

monkey9 wrote: »

TheCitizen has genuinely spent the majority of last night and all of today to pretend he thinks Liverpool play like Jack Charlton's Ireland.

That's some commitment to bullsh!t, fair play.

Just broke the all time passing record in a premier League game in our last match too,weird considering the ball was in the air so often eh.

gimli2112

bangkok wrote: »

Ole nominated for december manager of the month

This has to be an online poll hijacked by my lot.

He drew with Villa and the bad Everton at home and lost to Watford. In fairness they had good results against City and Spurs and a couple of others so I can see why. I'd be bemused if Klopp didn't get it after their run over Xmas but maybe he won't because they were in Qatar.

LuckyLloyd

citytillidie wrote: »

There are 7 English teams in Europe 4 in the Champions League and 3 in the Europa League

Once this 3rd European Comp starts it will be 4 in the Champions League. 2 in the Europa League and 1 in the Europa Conference.

League Cup winners go into the Europa Conference, so i say those 7 teams in Europe that season should not be in the League Cup, it then gives a new team each season a shot at the Europa Conference

I like that idea, but the FA would never go for it

Dcully

monkey9 wrote: »

TheCitizen has genuinely spent the majority of last night and all of today to pretend he thinks Liverpool play like Jack Charlton's Ireland.

That's some commitment to bullsh!t, fair play.

It's hilarious but even more so the serial Liverpool haters and bitters thanking his posts.
The gifts that just keep giving....long may it continue.

bangkok

gimli2112 wrote: »

This has to be an online poll hijacked by my lot.

He drew with Villa and the bad Everton at home and lost to Watford. In fairness they had good results against City and Spurs and a couple of others so I can see why. I'd be bemused if Klopp didn't get it after their run over Xmas but maybe he won't because they were in Qatar.

He only lost one game in december. Beat jose's spurs at home and city away as well

RasTa

Dcully wrote: »

It's hilarious but even more so the serial Liverpool haters and bitters thanking his posts.
The gifts that just keep giving....long may it continue.

I remember it got so bad during the Fergie era that the manager of Liverpool whipped out a "facts" sheet, rambling on.

Let's hope this spell doesn't go to those depths.

marklazarcovic

marklazarcovic wrote: »

Just broke the all time passing record in a premier League game in our last match too,weird considering the ball was in the air so often eh.

One of the cornerstones of the long ball game was to get the ball to the other end of the pitch with as few passes as possible. And that's not without some merit, proponents like Egil Olsen who were well able to break it down to stats pointed out that it meant less mistakes when in possession, it put the ball in the opponents danger areas more frequently etc. If Liverpool play long ball, they must be the worst long ball team of all time, and Klopp doesn't understand the simple fundamentals of the tactic.

TitianGerm

bangkok wrote: »

He only lost one game in december. Beat jose's spurs at home and city away as well

He also lost to Watford and drew with Villa and Everton. Thats not great for United.

Hasslehuttel should be the third nomination.

TheCitizen

Deleted User wrote: »

One of the cornerstones of the long ball game was to get the ball to the other end of the pitch with as few passes as possible. And that's not without some merit, proponents like Egil Olsen who were well able to break it down to stats pointed out that it meant less mistakes when in possession, it put the ball in the opponents danger areas more frequently etc. If Liverpool play long ball, they must be the worst long ball team of all time, and Klopp doesn't understand the simple fundamentals of the tactic.

RasTa wrote: »

I remember it got so bad during the Fergie era that the manager of Liverpool whipped out a "facts" sheet, rambling on.

Let's hope this spell doesn't go to those depths.

Dcully wrote: »

It's hilarious but even more so the serial Liverpool haters and bitters thanking his posts.
The gifts that just keep giving....long may it continue.

marklazarcovic wrote: »

Just broke the all time passing record in a premier League game in our last match too,weird considering the ball was in the air so often eh.

monkey9 wrote: »

:pac::pac:

Dear oh Dear, you guys have it bad. I never said there was anything wrong with Klopp and his team using long ball/passes as a tactic. It's another string to their bow and it's a definite fundamental part of their game is what I'm saying.

Speaking of stats they're in 6th place in the Long Ball league this season btw:) Not bad.

https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/clubs/total_long_balls

The_Kew_Tour

TitianGerm wrote: »

Hasslehuttel should be the third nomination.

I thought so too. Has them playing some nice stuff now and are good team to watch. Plus not afraid to drop players and trust Youth.

JPA

FitzShane wrote: »

Anyone else think it's a bit weird with the timing of the Wayne Rooney stories about gambling addiction, and videos of him with recovering gambling addicts? There's something very off about it.

I mean, he literally is wearing the number 32 at Derby County because they are sponsored by online gambling site 32Red who wanted him to wear the number 32 to promote their site and there have been suggestions that they were allowed to chose his number as they are sponsoring the money for his wages.

32Red were fined £2m about 18 months ago for encouraging problem gamblers to gamble more and more money even after they lost huge sums, by giving them VIP status.

It's all a bit like a massive advert for gambling, with Rooney as the face of it.

There have also been suggestions that Rooney is on a player / coach role and the majority of the wages are falling under the coaching side as the money being spent on this department does not fall under FFP consideration where Derby are teetering very close to the line, but that's an aside.

Wrong thread.
But possibly to do with the initiative to think about mental health this weekend, all games kicking off 1 minute late.

Salary Negotiator

TheCitizen wrote: »

Dear oh Dear, you guys have it bad. I never said there was anything wrong with Klopp and his team using long ball/passes as a tactic. It's another string to their bow and it's a definite fundamental part of their game is what I'm saying.

Speaking of stats they're in 6th place in the Long Ball league this season btw:) Not bad.

https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/clubs/total_long_balls

And third in total passes so actually further down the long ball table than expected.

MD1990

https://twitter.com/goal/status/1213217520531988480

long passing at its best

ShamoBuc

TheCitizen wrote: »

It's another string to their bow

ShamoBuc wrote: »

Long accurate direct balls are only one of the many strings in Liverpools bow.

Finally coming around to a sensible point of view....:pac::pac: