General Premier League Thread 2019-20

bangkok

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Another narrative that's pegged out is that fans who see the issues are apparently just being negative over everything. Which is a big load of bolox.

There have been a small few positives but more from an individual aspect than anything collective.

Unfortunately the collective issues far outweigh any of this and Ole does not have one notion or experience to deal with it.

Any other manager in any other club of Man Utds caliber would have this man sacked months ago regardless of how bad the owners are.

Ole is an inexperienced manager placed into a position of power at a club that hasn't a clue what it's doing in the long run.

It's a club simply trying to buy time from investors and use Ole as a Club Legend to quell the outrage of fans but surely the patience will have to run out eventually.

If fans think what's on display is acceptable then Woodward has simply driven home the fact that mediocrity at the club is now acceptable.

Man Utd haven't won 3 games in a row since god know how long, cannot for the life of them keep a clean sheet, don't create enough of chances and score enough of goals in games and Ole has the worst record under any manager in a decade or more at the club.

These are the realities.

**** owners or not, anybody with better experience than ole would be doing a better job.

Myself and many others don't accept that we should continue to sit and watch this same ****e over and over.

Ole put on a tactical masterclass v jose and pep this season and took points from liverpool. Hammered chelsea at home and beaf them away, also beat leicester at home, kept a clean sheet v both chelsea and leicester

Jurgen The German

bangkok wrote: »

Ole put on a tactical masterclass v jose and pep this season and took points from liverpool. Hammered chelsea at home and beaf them away, also beat leicester at home, kept a clean sheet v both chelsea and leicester

So 6 good performances out of around 35 games between league and cup.

Sweet.

If you are going to lavish praise on him for that, what's your opinion on the following?

He already has more losses than Moyes in 20 or so less games.

He has a worse win percentage now than he had with Cardiff.

Losses to Astana, Watford, Bournemouth and Newcastle.

Draws against Alkmaar, Villa, Southampton and the mighty Rochdale.

Steve Bruce had never beaten United Ole as manager, Ole accommodates.

Those handful of good performances do not even come close to covering the by and large useless overall results he as overseen.

Backstreet Moyes

bangkok wrote: »

Ole put on a tactical masterclass v jose and pep this season and took points from liverpool. Hammered chelsea at home and beaf them away, also beat leicester at home, kept a clean sheet v both chelsea and leicester

Yet he is well behind the points total of this time last year where you were abusing Mourinho

He is the worst manager in the clubs history and the longer he stays the further the club will fall

What good is it beating top teams if you can't beat relegation fodder you get the same amount of points for each game

The_Kew_Tour

Over 5 years since we had no shot on target till last night.

Tactical masterclass...

Honestly would ye be arsed

TitianGerm

I think Bangkoks stance is clearly developed by ulterior motives.

It's clear as day there are posters in the United thread that he does not like so he will not allow himself to have similar viewpoints to them.

They said Jose wasn't the only problem, Bangkok said he was.
They wondered why Ole was given the job after a lucky away win against PSG, Bangkok is delighted with the appointment.
They say Pogba hasn't been worth his transfer fee, Bangkok says he's brilliant and got in the EL team of the season.
They say the results aren't good enough, Bangkok cherry picks a handful of results to show he's doing well but flat out ignores the far greater number of poor results.
They say United don't create enough or don't look like they know what to do against a packed defense, Bangkok says we scored 4 goals in three seperate games this season and scored 3 goals in five games this season.
They say our defense is leaky and is an issue, Bangkok will say we've kept 10 clean sheets this season.
They say we should be expecting more from £50m AWB and £80m Maguire, Bangkok says they've be great.

All you need to do to tell how well Ole is doing is ask other fans. I don't think fans of Liverpool, Chelsea, City, Arsenal, Spurs or Leicester would want to see him sacked in the morning. As far as we're concerned he's doing a great job.
When he is sacked there won't be one PL club to offer him a job.

Fitz*

bangkok wrote: »

They have kept plenty of clean sheets, as recently as yesterday, burnley last week

Man United have 3 clean sheets in 21 PL games. The worst in the division, Norwich, have 2 clean sheets.

Or, are you counting clean sheets against Colchester, Astana & Alkmaar as a great success? Get real.

Shanotheslayer

bangkok wrote: »

They have kept plenty of clean sheets, as recently as yesterday, burnley last week

I don't think you know what the word plenty means.

.G.

Drumpot wrote: »

We have probably got the equivalent of Hicks and Gillett running our club or at least comparable in that they are terrible club owners. Can you ever imagine Liverpool winning a league or champions league with those guys?

I’m not sure I posted it here but this should be porn reading for Liverpool fans. Basically the glazers are bucking the statistical odds in American football with their club doing worse then any other club in the sport. Even though the sport itself has ways to even out teams every year!!!

Does any of this sound like United the last 7 years?

....................

https://www.tampabay.com/sports/bucs/2019/11/22/tampa-bays-12-year-drought-can-only-be-blamed-on-ownership/

They change coaches every few years. Overhaul the roster (transfers), too. But when the Bucs haven’t been to the playoffs in 12 years, the Glazer family has to accept the responsibility......

This is not normal. Statistically speaking, it’s barely even possible.....

No NFL, NBA, NHL or MLB team has finished in last place as frequently as Tampa Bay in the past decade. This could potentially be the seventh time the Bucs end up all alone at the bottom of the South since 2009. In two other seasons, they tied for the worst record.

Add it up, and that could make nine last-place finishes in 11 years in a league that zealously pushes parity. Everything the NFL does is designed to keep teams competitive, and the Bucs have stubbornly resisted. Salary cap? Yup. Reverse draft order? Yup. Softer schedule for a losing team? Yup.

Let’s put that in perspective:

In just the past six seasons, every other team in the NFC has reached the playoffs at least once. If you go back to 2010, every team has made it at least twice. Go back to 2008, and more than half the teams in the conference have made the playoffs at least four times. The Bucs? Not once.

That isn’t just a bad stretch, it’s a cry for help.

And what’s worse is they’ve given you so little hope......

And yet that’s where we’re at in 2019. Every step forward is met with an equal stumble backward.

Can you blame it on coaching? Yeah, sure. But this streak of non-playoff appearances stretches all the way back to Jon Gruden’s final season. That’s six different head coaches who have had their hand in this mess.

Can you blame it on players? Well, of course. But the Bucs have one of the youngest rosters in the NFL, and nearly three-quarters of the team was acquired in the past two seasons.

Ultimately, this is a problem with ownership. And with a lack of direction.

The Bucs do not seem to operate with an organizational philosophy as much as an annual reassessment......

Every team tweaks. Every team tinkers. It’s the way the NFL is designed. Careers are too brief and annual turnover is inevitable.

The problem here seems to be a lack of leadership at the very top. Not just in the general manager’s office, but from above.

............

Whether Ole stays or goes, I think he’s the least of Our worries. Unless things change radically in the way they run their clubs we won’t be doing much for a long long time.

I have long argued that the problem at United isn't in the managers chair, although the current occupant is a problem. Nothing changes at the club with those owners as has been proven when you had good quality managers in the chair. You'd be a bit more competitive obviously but not ultimately anywhere near where you all want to be.

We got Hicks and Gillet out by focusing our ire, organised by groups like spirit of shankly, on those in the banking world who facilitated their business model but ultimately we got a massive helping hand by the financial crash to get them out. The banks saw their arse in the face of public revolt and called in the loans when they knew the owners couldn't pay them.

Not sure what can be done to get rid of your lot but that's where fan group focus should be imo, changing whoever is in the managers chair is just a sticking plaster over a gaping wound.

Hicks and Gillette sent us to the brink of extinction. We were literally 24 hours away from administration.

However bad the Glaziers are (I like them), they're not remotely close to being as bad as H & G.

.G.

The banks could have refinanced the loans for the pair of them and things would have a carried on as normal with them being sh1t. They didn't because of the pressure applied by fans on them to get the owners out.

redzerdrog

I think the fact that utd have performed against the big sides shows the the players can perform tactically. There is a specific game plan for those game and to be fair to ole it has worked. But this shows be that when the the tactics are rights that the players can execute them quite well.

The problem is that ole is completely and utterly devoid of ideas when it comes to playing opposition who are happy to allow utd the ball

MD1990

redzerdrog wrote: »

I think the fact that utd have performed against the big sides shows the the players can perform tactically. There is a specific game plan for those game and to be fair to ole it has worked. But this shows be that when the the tactics are rights that the players can execute them quite well.

The problem is that ole is completely and utterly devoid of ideas when it comes to playing opposition who are happy to allow utd the ball

In fairness to him.

He has nothing in midfield. Pogba injured all season. Fred is ok but not creative. Mata 6 years past his best too.

.G.

It's not always a easy problem to solve. Many Liverpool managers before Klopp couldn't figure it out with any consistency either. It why all our previous attempts to win this league proved fruitless, the draws killed them.

bangkok

MD1990 wrote: »

In fairness to him.

He has nothing in midfield. Pogba injured all season. Fred is ok but not creative. Mata 6 years past his best too.

Exactly this, there is no creativity in midfield.

TitianGerm

bangkok wrote: »

Exactly this, there is no creativity in midfield.

Very little creativity in Liverpool's midfield either but it doesn't seem to be affecting them because Klopp has a plan in place to get the most out of his workman like midfield.

Shanotheslayer

bangkok wrote: »

Exactly this, there is no creativity in midfield.

So all of Uniteds problems are sloved with creativity in midfield?

bangkok

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

So all of Uniteds problems are sloved with creativity in midfield?

Did i say that?

It is a huge problem though, we are one of the best counter attacking teams in the country with the pace we have, the problem is when teams sit deep we dont have the players in midfield to break them down. Pogba is there but je is injured but we still need another one or 2

bangkok

TitianGerm wrote: »

Very little creativity in Liverpool's midfield either but it doesn't seem to be affecting them because Klopp has a plan in place to get the most out of his workman like midfield.

He also has the best attacking right and left backs in the world so that helps a bit as well

TitianGerm

bangkok wrote: »

Did i say that?

It is a huge problem though, we are one of the best counter attacking teams in the country with the pace we have, the problem is when teams sit deep we dont have the players in midfield to break them down. Pogba is there but je is injured but we still need another one or 2

So Oles whole thing will work against 4-5 teams? Not a very good/effective tactic then.

TitianGerm

bangkok wrote: »

He also has the best attacking right and left backs in the world so that helps a bit as well

Sure United spent £50m on a RB. Why hasn't he added anything going forward?

Drumpot

Deleted User wrote: »

Hicks and Gillette sent us to the brink of extinction. We were literally 24 hours away from administration.

However bad the Glaziers are (I like them), they're not remotely close to being as bad as H & G.

Maybe it turned out that the glazers didn’t actually send the club to extinction but the level of debt they put on the club was unprecedented and I’m not sure any club anywhere has ever had as much put on its shoulders.

I think it ended up being 80% of the LTV of the club with some of the debt costing up to 15%. Lets be kind and average that out to 10%. That would be a modern equality of putting 3 billion debt in the club and 300 mil in loan repayments annually.

But for SAF genius this club would be gone as far as I’m concerned. It succeeded in spite of the glazers, not because of them. The only good thing they have ever done On the football side of things was leave SAF to effectively run the football side of things but he had to do it with a more stringent budget relative to the size of the club. Like I’ve said in a differnt thread, United sold ronaldo and bought Antonio Valencia.

People think the glazers spend a lot and they do relative to other clubs. But they don’t relative to what the club can afford and are actually the lowest next to spurs in the league for spending relative to turnover

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/football/2019/may/22/premier-league-finances-club-guide-2017-18-accounts-manchester-united-city

United has generated over 1.3 billion the last 10 years which is over twice that of their nearest club (arsenal) and nearly 4 times what Liverpool made in that period. 50% of that went on debt.

https://therepublikofmancunia.com/shocking-figures-show-how-much-the-glazers-have-taken-from-united/

Oh and our debt increased recently by 180 mil, think that’s about the gross amount spent on transfers.

I appreciate this is not the only barometer but all united need is owners who basically buy the club with their own money and install proper footballing structures like Liverpool and I think the club quickly rises back up the ranks again.

I really don’t think even most united fans realise how bad they are , how much damage they are causing , how much they are handicapping us and how we don’t need billionaire owners just half decent ones who don’t saddle the club with debt and we will be fine. If fans really did understand it they’d surely be marching and picketing at every game. It’s so sad how pathetic United fans response has been, mine has been just to whinge on boards or forums so I’m not speaking down.

bangkok

TitianGerm wrote: »

So Oles whole thing will work against 4-5 teams? Not a very good/effective tactic then.

And if pogba wasnt injured they would have picked up more points in other games as well.

Its a work in progress, he needs another few transfer windows to get the team he wants

.G.

Drumpot wrote: »

If fans really did understand it they’d surely be marching and picketing at every game. It’s so sad how pathetic United fans response has been, mine has been just to whinge on boards or forums so I’m not speaking down.

I participated in efforts to get rid of H+G from the comfort of my home. I and many LFC fans did, those on the ground in Liverpool did their bit with visible protest but plenty of others contributed in the internet campaign that targetted any business that facilitated their ownership, banks and sponsors etc. Millions of emails sent by millions of fans sent over a period of 2 years to try get them out. Hicks even mentioned LFC's "internet terrorists" as a reason why he had to let go of the club. All of it was organised by groups like Spirit of Shankly.

United fans and fan groups need to get of their arse and mobilise if you ever want the club back where it belongs, green and gold didn't last too long once the trophies kept rolling in. Or just sit around hoping the Saudis buy the club.

.G.

I would add, even as all this went on, many many LFC fans didn't see H+G as a problem either much like many United fans don't see the wood for the trees now too. Arguments across internet forums about the owners were far from rare, even arguments against the protests in Liverpool by fans sat on their arse doing nothing.

Guy:Incognito

bangkok wrote: »

Exactly this, there is no creativity in midfield.

This is his 3rd window. How many midfielders has he bought to fix this?

TitianGerm

bangkok wrote: »

And if pogba wasnt injured they would have picked up more points in other games as well.

Its a work in progress, he needs another few transfer windows to get the team he wants

Nothing says they would have picked up any more points. If Pogba was playing you very may have conceded more goals because he gives the ball away quite a lot and United may have even less points.

I'd be delighted if he's given more time and another £150m next summer. Waste more of the clubs money and float around between 6-8th is great.

Damien360

.G. wrote: »

I would add, even as all this went on, many many LFC fans didn't see H+G as a problem either much like many United fans don't see the wood for the trees now too. Arguments across internet forums about the owners were far from rare, even arguments against the protests in Liverpool by fans sat on their arse doing nothing.

That's not how I remember it. The internet (think hoards of boards copies) was awash with H+G out but the terraces still had the "let's get behind the team vibe" and I felt these couldn't see the wood from the trees.

.G.

Damien360 wrote: »

That's not how I remember it. The internet (think hoards of boards copies) was awash with H+G out but the terraces still had the "let's get behind the team vibe" and I felt these couldn't see the wood from the trees.

There was plenty of that too but the forums I was a part of back then had plenty of dissenting voices against anyone who questioned the owners. The fact was like United now, not all fans were on the same page.

Fitz*

bangkok wrote: »

And if pogba wasnt injured they would have picked up more points in other games as well.

Pogba's starts in the league this season

4-0 win at home to Chelsea
1-1 draw away to Wolves
1-2 loss at home to Crystal Palace
1-1 draw away to Southampton
1-1 draw at home to Arsenal

He was terrible in a couple of them games too. He didn't show much about changing the team while he was playing anyways.

adox

Pogba for me is one of the most talented but one of the most overrated footballers in world football. The sooner Utd are rid the better.

His brand is huge though. Hopefully someone else takes him on. He may well go on to be very successful at his next club but that shouldn’t stop Utd from selling him. He’s been a huge disappointment the vast majority of the time. His attitude has been really poor. He’s caused more problems than he has solved on the pitch and his off field antics in the press have been terrible.

Yes his creativity will be a loss for Utd but the trade off for hoping he produces on any given day isn’t worth it. He won’t be remembered fondly by the majority of Utd fans.

bangkok

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

This is his 3rd window. How many midfielders has he bought to fix this?

At least wait until the window is over ffs

Marty Bird

All this talk about the Glazers loading the club with debt it sure hasn’t stopped them from bankrolling managers with 100s of millions in transfer funds over the years.

Guy:Incognito

bangkok wrote: »

At least wait until the window is over ffs

2 windows are already long over.

TitianGerm

Marty Bird wrote: »

All this talk about the Glazers loading the club with debt it sure hasn’t stopped them from bankrolling managers with 100s of millions in transfer funds over the years.

This is something that I don't see mentioned that often. The club have still spent loads on players, even if the Glazers weren't taking money out or paying interest on loans I find it hard to imagine the club spending even more on players.

Do fans think the 100m (or whatever the actual number is?) taken out of the club would be spent on players? So last summer £250m spent instead of £150m?

Marty Bird

Marty Bird wrote: »

All this talk about the Glazers loading the club with debt it sure hasn’t stopped them from bankrolling managers with 100s of millions in transfer funds over the years.

Yep. It not only their fault inadequate players are being signed.

How much did Mourinho spend? Wasted a lot of cash iirc. Van Gaal the same.

Utd are a cash cow and it's poor signings and managers that have put them in this place.

Mushy

6 wrote: »

Yep. It not only their fault inadequate players are being signed.

How much did Mourinho spend? Wasted a lot of cash iirc. Van Gaal the same.

Utd are a cash cow and it's poor signings and managers that have put them in this place.

Yes, but those managers are in place in a patchwork style of strategy, for lack of a better word. Theres no visible plan in place at the club, so overspending (based on how the players have turned out to be) is rife. Then manager is sacked with again no plan, tries to buy own players so costs more. Rinse and repeat.

As a non Man Utd fan....its great

adox

There’s no doubt Utd have wasted 100s of millions on players post Fergie. It’s part of the problem. Business men instead of football people in charge of recruitment. Of course the managers have to take some of the blame too. The whole structure of the club is a mess.

The worry I have (as a Utd fan) is the breaks have been put on spending somewhat when, despite the 100s of millions spent the squad still needs serious investment and is in an awful state.

The warning signs were there when Jose had a falling out with the club when after finishing second he wanted more spent on the squad in the summer. Wanted another CB added. The spiel from the top was that he’d bought two already and they didn’t think another one was needed. Alarm bells ringing straight away.
Like if you are not trusting your manager(it wasn’t that funds weren’t there, they decided another CB wasn’t needed) then get rid of him and put someone else in charge.

Since Ole has come in, despite money being spent and a world record fee for a CB(don’t get me started on that) the club have gotten rid of more players than they have brought in, despite the squad at the time needing more additions not less.

Utds MF is waiver thin and their attack is based around hoping very young players can step up to the plate. It’s utterly ridiculous. All under the tenure of a manager with the least experience of any manager post Fergie, with an awful record in charge(the worst post Fergie) and one who won’t get another top job after this.

It’s an utter shambles and most of it has been brought on by the club itself. It has been mismanaged from the top time and time again. At this stage nothing surprises with me with the decision making anymore. That’s when a decision is made. The most damning thing I can say about the hierarchy post Fergie is their apparent “rabbit in a headlight” attitude to decision making. Be it sacking a manager, signing a player etc etc. It has cost the club big time and added hugely to the problems and decline of the club.

bangkok

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

2 windows are already long over.

He was only caretaker manager for the first window so i wouldnt even count that

Drumpot

TitianGerm wrote: »

This is something that I don't see mentioned that often. The club have still spent loads on players, even if the Glazers weren't taking money out or paying interest on loans I find it hard to imagine the club spending even more on players.

Do fans think the 100m (or whatever the actual number is?) taken out of the club would be spent on players? So last summer £250m spent instead of £150m?

The point I was making is that the glazers don’t spend a lot relative to what can be spent, it really triggers me when people say “well they do spend a lot”. They only spend a lot relative to clubs with a much lower value or spending capacity then united. It’s this sort of statement that lets them away with “balancing the books” type strategies like the one they have been doing the last 2 seasons.

Anyway spending actually isn’t the biggest problem. Another problem is that spending and how targets/players are chosen. Managers do get an input of sorts but how much of an input is not clear. You can come up with reasonable theories on how it looks like plenty of signings had nothing to do with the manger of the time. So who is deciding the criteria on what players are signed because it’s most certainly not always our manager. Is it a massive coincidence that our most expensive signing is one of the most active popular online footballers in the league world? I mean he is world class but that’s some nice coincidence for a club whose directors core competency is marketing us to anybody who will listen.

It seems remarkable and quite absurd to suggest that Woodward is playing a kind of football manager with the club. Using financial acumen and maybe a money ball type strategy (or just youth, young players or players with potential resale value approach ) but that’s what it looks like. Concurrent managers have alluded to Woodwards role and influence and then woodeddd himself confirmed he has to sometimes say no to managers. We have established that Money is never an issue so what qualifies Woodward to know what is best for the first team?!

Look at Newcastle’s value 381 million

https://www.forbes.com/teams/newcastle-united/#5ac68d31733d

That’s one tenth of the value of United

https://www.forbes.com/teams/manchester-united/#7ed736fa13f9

Mike Ashely is a terrible owner and yet his club usually spends maybe no less then a third of united spends on transfers for most of the last few seasons..

God I f**king hate our owners so much, there is nothing positive or redeeming about them at this stage.

Well, whatever the Glaziers are doing, long may it continue.

Backstreet Moyes

bangkok wrote: »

And if pogba wasnt injured they would have picked up more points in other games as well.

Its a work in progress, he needs another few transfer windows to get the team he wants

He has the worst record in the clubs history and wouldn't get another job in the league why should he get to build the team he wants

What has he shown to say he deserves the chance

bangkok

Nuts102 wrote: »

He has the worst record in the clubs history and wouldn't get another job in the league why should he get to build the team he wants

What has he shown to say he deserves the chance

He has beaten all the big teams in the league, took points from liverpool, knocked psg out of the champions league. His only 3 signings have all been good. He has cleared out deadwood. He has actually improved fred as a player.

gimli2112

I'm struggling to see the case for Ole, at least from a Utd perspective. The only people defending him are you and his mates. If Liverpool fans are agreeing with you, surely that's a sign?
I should say I actually thought he was a good appointment, he had them on a 12 win streak or something but once he was made permanent the wheels came off.

TitianGerm

bangkok wrote: »

He has beaten all the big teams in the league, took points from liverpool, knocked psg out of the champions league. His only 3 signings have all been good. He has cleared out deadwood. He has actually improved fred as a player.

No point beating PSG then going out with a whimper in the next round.

Failed to beat Wolves, Palace, Southampton, West Ham, Bournemouth, Sheffield United, Villa, Everton and Watford. Lost to Newcastle in the first game and blown away by Arsenal the other day. But that's ok because he beat City, Chelsea, Spurs and got a draw with Liverpool. How the mighty have fallen.

What deadwood did he clear out? Valencia and Herera contracts were up, Smalling and Sanchez (still paying most of his wages) are on loan. Only Darmian and Lukaka were sold and I wouldn't call a player that cost £70m and has 14 goals in 22 appearances this season deadwood.

I'd be expecting a hell of a lot more than "good" from two players that cost a combined £130m.

bangkok

gimli2112 wrote: »

I'm struggling to see the case for Ole, at least from a Utd perspective. The only people defending him are you and his mates. If Liverpool fans are agreeing with you, surely that's a sign?
I should say I actually thought he was a good appointment, he had them on a 12 win streak or something but once he was made permanent the wheels came off.

There was plenty of liverpool fans who wanted klopp gone as few years ago. They look pretty foolish now

gimli2112

bangkok wrote: »

There was plenty of liverpool fans who wanted klopp gone as few years ago. They look pretty foolish now

ehm he's been a success from day one, even the victory parade for drawing with West Brom at home was well received by the dark side

Damien360

bangkok wrote: »

He has beaten all the big teams in the league, took points from liverpool, knocked psg out of the champions league. His only 3 signings have all been good. He has cleared out deadwood. He has actually improved fred as a player.

I know you are a utd fan but are you posting this for giggles ? Utd are unwatchable right now. You are seeing a couple of good results (literally) as progress. And Fred is atrocious.

bangkok

Damien360 wrote: »

I know you are a utd fan but are you posting this for giggles ? Utd are unwatchable right now. You are seeing a couple of good results (literally) as progress. And Fred is atrocious.

Fred is poor alright, a jose signing for 50m. Ole needs time and money to build his own team.

I just said fred has improved as a player under ole

bangkok

bangkok wrote: »

There was plenty of liverpool fans who wanted klopp gone as few years ago. They look pretty foolish now

Plenty?...

Harry Palmr

Did anyone want Klopp out? I genuinely cannot recall any real dissent even if there were quibbles.

Anyway Klopp won two BL titles and that meant he knew how to win a big league, OGS has won in Norway. Just not the same thing.