General Premier League Thread 2019-20

5starpool

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

There is no normal unaffected “next” season coming. The Premier League needs to figure out a way of continuing football pre vaccine, or roll the dice with 12 - 18 months of zero revenue. The smaller clubs must be very confident they can weather the storm and / or that BT and SKY will keep cutting cheques while they sit it out.

Either way, leaving aside that it is highly unlikely a full August - May calendar will be played, there is no chance of fans in stadiums and all of the associated side revenue that comes with that. So they better start dancing for TV sooner rather than later.

Not just TV revenue. Sponsors, kit makers, and everyone else will be withholding money of they contractually can at all. There will be zero revenues coming in. It won't just be non playing staff being furloughed but still paid as normal, it will be reducing almost all clubs to a bare skeleton staff presumably, including managers, players, the works, if football can't resume at all until the virus is eradicated, which is the logical conclusion of this all.

I personally don't think the UK is ready to return to more normal life give the spread that still exists, but in a couple of months they might be. As you say though, next season is as likely as this one to be impacted, so if there is a determination to return, it'll need to be well planned with resilient fallback positions.

rgace

If football or any other business has to wait until employees can go back to work completely risk free, when can they get back to work? A year?

Agent Coulson

If football gets up and running and they get game 4/5 rounds in with no issues at then a team who have dropped into the bottom 3 and look like they are going down decide to say they have a number of players testing positive and are unable to field a team?

Morally wrong to do in my opinion however from a business point of view it might be a smart move.


There is no independent testing going on from what I have read or heard.

Bridge93

There may be no independent testing but the results are surely provided to independent bodies? How would we know teams aren’t playing infected players as they need them? The results would’ve going to the govt as part of central figures? The labs testing whether they’re positive or not would be independent no?

I find it very hard to believe this whole process is being conducted solely inside the clubs. That’s asking for trouble. They’re football clubs not hospitals or labs. They’ll need outside help surely?

Thanx 4 The Fish

Agent Coulson wrote: »

If football gets up and running and they get game 4/5 rounds in with no issues at then a team who have dropped into the bottom 3 and look like they are going down decide to say they have a number of players testing positive and are unable to field a team?

Morally wrong to do in my opinion however from a business point of view it might be a smart move.


There is no independent testing going on from what I have read or heard.

There absolutely is, you can buy home testing kits online and have been able to do so for some time in the UK certainly.

https://www.better2know.co.uk/shop/products/home-testing-kits/covid-19-test
https://bluehorizonbloodtests.co.uk/collections/covid-19-coronavirus-tests

Agent Coulson

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote: »

There absolutely is, you can buy home testing kits online and have been able to do so for some time in the UK certainly.

https://www.better2know.co.uk/shop/products/home-testing-kits/covid-19-test
https://bluehorizonbloodtests.co.uk/collections/covid-19-coronavirus-tests

Well then that takes away part of the arguments that the premier League will be taking kits away from the NHS.

Fr Tod Umptious

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote: »

There absolutely is, you can buy home testing kits online and have been able to do so for some time in the UK certainly.

https://www.better2know.co.uk/shop/products/home-testing-kits/covid-19-test
https://bluehorizonbloodtests.co.uk/collections/covid-19-coronavirus-tests

Independent testing would imply that the testing is done by someone not associated with the club.

Not where the actual kit came from.

Girly Gal

Strumms wrote: »

A stadium and the type of work being done around getting a game of football going is not akin to ‘every other workplace’.. you have multiple people in teams as already pointed out, medical, playing, support, catering, security etc... ALL by the very nature of the work, done in teams..

‘Only’ the players and referees ? Is their wellbeing and safety and that of their families not just as important as all of us, all of ours?

How can a camera rigger lift a 60 kgs piece of kit on his own ? An injured player who needs putting on a stretcher be put there on his own, you’d have some job as a physio too... massaging a tight hamstring... Heaps of examples...

How can security to an access point be provided by a single officer with no support ?

For football to return players and referees will need to agree to isolate fom their families
From the examples you give only the physios and medical staff would be difficult to overcome as they wouldn't be able to social distance, the rigger could use a mechanical aid, barriers and controlled access would help security , as I' ve said once properly planned there is enough money in the premier league to solve these issues.
There will be some risk when football returns as nothing is 100% foolproof. There are thousands of people working in shops and factories around the country throughout this pandemic and have had to do this despite in alot of cases the jobs they are doing not really being essential.

LuckyLloyd

Strumms wrote: »

Taking the fans out of it, you are going to have 22 players on a pitch, plus subs who for 90 plus minutes will be perspiring, spitting, working in not close proximity to each other but in ACTUAL contact with each other. Away from the pitch there are subs, physios, Doctors, kit men, and numerous support staff and grounds people, security, catering, TV teams, medical and more besides...working in close proximity.

To put on a premier league game in a ground you will have approx...

42 players (two squads including a few reserves per squad in case injury or illness,)

18 management and coaching staff

6 referees and assistants

40 security

50 TV people (presenters, producers, runners, camera people, riggers, director)

There will be more besides..

So before you put or considering putting bums on seats to watch a match live, you are going to be ordering 150 plus people back to work, in close proximity. To provide what is in all essence primarily an entertainment source. Entertainment! No great difference to a local circus, cinema, theater etc. Yes football is also business and revenue and a lot of it will be lost but rather that then lives.

First off, the numbers above are wrong and exaggerated. The only people needed at the ground are the camera people and the riggers. Everything else can be done remotely off the available feeds. 40 security? Full squads? Full coaching staffs? Come now. Either way, it is the case for using neutral venues.

Secondly, this equation continues for next season. Do players want to let 18 months of their prime slide by? Have their club go bust and let their incomes reduce to 0 for that period? Do the clubs and the coaching staffs, etc?

Thirdly, if Germany can do it the political pressure within England to do it will be intense. To fail is to fail as a government and as a nation. Football can be considered unimportant, but nonetheless it is an integral part of English culture and has not seen a season fail to be completed since the second world war.

=============

I can't answer the question about whether the English Premier League is happy to give in and fail, to resist all of the various pressures and motivations. I can't answer the question about whether Brighton and Watford and Bouremouth and a whole host of Championship teams can avoid going bust; I can't answer the question as to whether they would risk the possibility of that fate rather than the certainty associated with relegation.

I think if they can get back to doing things safely they should. And given a full season between August and May 2021 is a pipe dream, they should finish out the remainder of this year and take it from there on the basis of what is possible.

LuckyLloyd

5starpool wrote: »

Not just TV revenue. Sponsors, kit makers, and everyone else will be withholding money of they contractually can at all. There will be zero revenues coming in. It won't just be non playing staff being furloughed but still paid as normal, it will be reducing almost all clubs to a bare skeleton staff presumably, including managers, players, the works, if football can't resume at all until the virus is eradicated, which is the logical conclusion of this all.

I personally don't think the UK is ready to return to more normal life give the spread that still exists, but in a couple of months they might be. As you say though, next season is as likely as this one to be impacted, so if there is a determination to return, it'll need to be well planned with resilient fallback positions.

Absolutely. Maybe the clubs at the bottom of the premier league have enough cash to keep the lights on for 18 months? Fair play to them if they do. Quite the sea change in Premier League football finances if so.

Strumms

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

First off, the numbers above are wrong and exaggerated. The only people needed at the ground are the camera people and the riggers. Everything else can be done remotely off the available feeds. 40 security? Full squads? Full coaching staffs? Come now. Either way, it is the case for using neutral venues.

Secondly, this equation continues for next season. Do players want to let 18 months of their prime slide by? Have their club go bust and let their incomes reduce to 0 for that period? Do the clubs and the coaching staffs, etc?

Thirdly, if Germany can do it the political pressure within England to do it will be intense. To fail is to fail as a government and as a nation. Football can be considered unimportant, but nonetheless it is an integral part of English culture and has not seen a season fail to be completed since the second world war.

=============

I can't answer the question about whether the English Premier League is happy to give in and fail, to resist all of the various pressures and motivations. I can't answer the question about whether Brighton and Watford and Bouremouth and a whole host of Championship teams can avoid going bust; I can't answer the question as to whether they would risk the possibility of that fate rather than the certainty associated with relegation.

I think if they can get back to doing things safely they should. And given a full season between August and May 2021 is a pipe dream, they should finish out the remainder of this year and take it from there on the basis of what is possible.

So that’s a whole load basically of ‘what ifs’... clubs going to the wall, nobody wants to see. If ‘some’ need to be mothballed so fûckin be it...if that’s the solution to it great. Better than people getting sick and dying..But I wouldn’t support any club or football in general who want to risk the health of employees and indeed their wider community by trying to finish this season or trying to make more dosh by ram raiding the health of community into going back too early...

TitianGerm

Could use that spidercam for the games and you'd reduce the camera men way down. Added benefit that it's an awesome system as well.

Agent Coulson

TitianGerm wrote: »

Could use that spidercam for the games and you'd reduce the camera men way down. Added benefit that it's an awesome system as well.

Stadiums are anywhere from 30 to 80 thousand seaters they are probably the best places to work for non players if you want to keep social distance.

Stadiums will be empty camera men will probably be the people most away from everyone else.

There is no need for commentators that can be done for studios.

Coaches and players and other staff can take up seats at social distance in the stands behind dug outs.

Written press can seat throughout the stadium and use wifi and moblie wifi if they need.

LuckyLloyd

Strumms wrote: »

So that’s a whole load basically of ‘what ifs’... clubs going to the wall, nobody wants to see. If ‘some’ need to be mothballed so fûckin be it...if that’s the solution to it great. Better than people getting sick and dying..But I wouldn’t support any club or football in general who want to risk the health of employees and indeed their wider community by trying to finish this season or trying to make more dosh by ram raiding the health of community into going back too early...

You may wish to check out Boris Johnson's statement later. There are no 'what ifs' around the political pressure that will soon be brought to bear here and how that will facilitate the TV money and sponsorship money that has paid handsomely for their monkeys to dance on the field.

The U.K. is rescinding their lockdown and changing its messaging as of today. Should they do this? No, absolutely not. But they are because that is what the British people voted for. If you think the Premier League will be able to sit it out while the average joe is put back at risk I can only say you are entitled to your opinion.

The only thing that is going to get resisting clubs and players out of this one is if the Bundesliga relaunch fails next Saturday.

eagle eye

Well then it's up to the players to take it into their own hands. Any player with a wife and kids will have to think long and hard about whether it's worth it.

Agent Coulson

eagle eye wrote: »

Well then it's up to the players to take it into their own hands. Any player with a wife and kids will have to think long and hard about whether it's worth it.

Does that not go for anyone in any walk of life working now or anyone going back to work in the coming weeks.

Not every player can retire today financially secure if football ends as we no it.

eagle eye

Agent Coulson wrote:

Does that not go for anyone in any walk of life working now or anyone going back to work in the coming weeks.
Not every player can retire today financially secure if football ends as we no it.

It does affect everyone but I think being in close contact with somebody who is sweating and breathing heavy is a lot more high risk than sitting in an office with good social distancing measures and everybody wearing facemasks.

LuckyLloyd

eagle eye wrote: »

Well then it's up to the players to take it into their own hands. Any player with a wife and kids will have to think long and hard about whether it's worth it.

Up to them. But the apparatus of the Conservative media is well able to make it very uncomfortable for them if they are seen as highlighting the deficiencies of government policy / policy failings. And Sky / BT / sponsors will be fully entitled to turn off the taps, which will in turn force the clubs to pass that down to the players.

Some players are rich and do not need the money. That is not true for all.
Some players will be happy to sit it out for 12 - 18 months. That is not true for all.
Some players will be concerned about the health ramifications involved. That is not true for all.

A very interesting week or so lies ahead. I think we will know an awful lot more in 7 days time. If the Bundesliga games run without a hitch the pressure will be intolerable on the EPL to find a way.

Agent Coulson

eagle eye wrote: »

It does affect everyone but I think being in close contact with somebody who is sweating and breathing heavy is a lot more high risk than sitting in an office with good social distancing measures and everybody wearing facemasks.

Not everybody works in an office where social distance can be maintained and there will be lads working on sites soon enough where blood sweat and tears get spilled daily and where social distancing may not be possible in some cases

Face masks are great however will bushiness be taking them away from health services that need them badly.

Pubs will open in August and can you tell me for 100% that social distancing will be kept in there when drink is had.

Until a vaccine is found no one will be 100% safe.

citytillidie

eagle eye wrote: »

It does affect everyone but I think being in close contact with somebody who is sweating and breathing heavy is a lot more high risk than sitting in an office with good social distancing measures and everybody wearing facemasks.

Did you have any issues while watching the UFC last night, that is worse than football for men all over each other

eagle eye

citytillidie wrote:

Did you have any issues while watching the UFC last night, that is worse than football for men all over each other

I totally agree with you that it's very bad and imo should never have happened.

eagle eye

Any footballer who decides that protecting his family is more important than earning his big paycheck will have my respect. Any player with a family who is playing and going home to his wife and kids will lose my respect.

hetuzozaho

eagle eye wrote: »

It does affect everyone but I think being in close contact with somebody who is sweating and breathing heavy is a lot more high risk than sitting in an office with good social distancing measures and everybody wearing facemasks.

You would also imagine some footballers (the guys everyone wants to see) also have the advantage of the financial security to delay getting back to normal till it's safer.

Bridge93

We give out about here a lot as seen in the feedback stuff currently going on but Twitter is just another level of mad. Seems Brighton are making up positive tests now to get the season called off

Agent Coulson

eagle eye wrote: »

Any footballer who decides that protecting his family is more important than earning his big paycheck will have my respect. Any player with a family who is playing and going home to his wife and kids will lose my respect.

Have you lost respect for everyone who has been working over the last two months that goes home to their families every time they finish work?

The_Kew_Tour

Bridge93 wrote: »

We give out about here a lot as seen in the feedback stuff currently going on but Twitter is just another level of mad. Seems Brighton are making up positive tests now to get the season called off

Ya seen some crazy stuff in it today. Tin foil hat day on twitter

eagle eye

Agent Coulson wrote:

Have you lost respect for everyone who has been working over the last two months that goes home to their families every time they finish work?

I don't know anybody working in a position where they are around sweaty, heavy breathing people that they are in close contact with at work with no protection.

Agent Coulson

eagle eye wrote: »

I don't know anybody working in a position where they are around sweaty, heavy breathing people that they are in close contact with at work with no protection.

You just commented on a post above about the UFC what are your feeling on everyone involved in that now will it stop you watching it and supporting it now and in the future or will it be I just have lost respect but Ill continue to support and watch it anyway.

eagle eye

Agent Coulson wrote:

You just commented on a post above about the UFC what are your feeling on everyone involved in that now will it stop you watching it again and supporting it in the future or well I just have lost respect but Ill continue to support and watch it anyway.

I watched it, didn't cost me anything as I pay for bt sports.
I'm not one of these guys that's going to pick up a placard and go racing around the place. I don't care that much about it.

Shanotheslayer

Agent Coulson wrote: »

Have you lost respect for everyone who has been working over the last two months that goes home to their families every time they finish work?

Yeh because that's the exact same thing comparing multi millionaire footballers to necessity workers who are under paid.

HanFiredFirst

I would like to see how many footballers actually want to sit at home and how many actually want to get back playing, There are plenty of footballer across the world who are not muti millionaires and need football to get back started before it is ended for good for them.

Martin Tyler AgueroooOO

HanFiredFirst wrote: »

I would like to see how many footballers actually want to sit at home and how many actually want to get back playing, There are plenty of footballer across the world who are not muti millionaires and need football to get back started before it is ended for good for them.

Listening to the Sunday Supplement this morning the journalists on there were saying the vast majority of footballer wan to get back playing as they are very concerned about their livelihood and if it doesn't start back soon they maybe be all out of jobs. The journalists said Aguro was in a very small minority of players who don't want to go back.

ArmaniJeanss

eagle eye wrote: »

Any footballer who decides that protecting his family is more important than earning his big paycheck will have my respect. Any player with a family who is playing and going home to his wife and kids will lose my respect.

Well, perhaps the alternative is telling the wife and kids that the mortgages on the mock tudor and the villa in Marbella can no longer be paid, all the luxury cars have to be sold and there'll be no money for private schools fees for the next 10 years.

And that in 18 months time, post vaccine, when he goes back into the football job market the best contract he can get may be 10% of what he is currently on.

I'd suspect for the average pro footballer in his mid/late 20s that that would be a fair representation of the financial choice facing them.

Obviously there's a small cohort of mega rich footballers in their thirties who'll have been clever with their money who won't have any of those concerns.

Martin Tyler AgueroooOO

Also just on the Aguero concerns after watching that Amazon doc on City did it not show that Aguero lives alone in Manchester and all his family are back in Argentina and he has very few friends there at all other that deGea and other than that he keeps himself to himself playing video games when not involve in football.

If all of that was true is he just scared he will get inflected himself which would of course be a real concern, I thought it was being told that he was scared for his family in the media.

ebbsy

But if the season was to end with positions as now, would that not mean the Brightons etc would fold ? One billion pounds minimum is it not ?


The would still be in the Prem but not exist.

I do believe the season will finish, but not until later in the year, for financial reasons.

citytillidie

So England hoping to open things by July

eagle eye

ArmaniJeanss wrote:

Obviously there's a small cohort of mega rich footballers in their thirties who'll have been clever with their money who won't have any of those concerns.

I'm sure they have a footballers union to protect them in situations like this.

No employer can put you and your family at risk of catching this virus.

Corholio

I'd keep a lot of what sports writers are writing right now at a reach personally. The way headlines and articles are worded to make anyone 'afraid' of going back playing seem like they are spoilsports trying to stop everyone having their fun again. They have very vested interests in the resumption of sport of course but they are still either good or bad journalists on how they are reporting it.

Also I think it's a bit strange that the 'he's a rich footballer' is being used as a stick by some. That makes out that these players somehow dislike playing football and see it as an excuse to not play just because they 'have money'. Most/All players would prefer to be out there playing imo, being worried about a virus should not be exclusive to those who aren't as financially wealthy.

theoneeyedman

citytillidie wrote: »

Why the need for presenters at the ground? As we see they can be done from a studio or even at home, so that cuts out people already, why the need for catering, kits can be left out before games and kit personal can then leave heck let them so sit in the stands away from each other, and have the away team bring their kit with them and home teams can be collected after players have left the dressing room. With zero fans then you can spread the subs out into the stands beside the dugouts leaving the dugouts for management teams to social distance a little bit more. There are ways around all that with the space you have in a stadium with no fans.

As for that last night there was a UFC where you had people sweating and bleeding over each other, i would rather be playing football than doing that sport. Yes 3 people at a time but then you have the blood still in the mat for the next fights.

Likewise 50 people including cameramen, directors etc.... Set up fixed cameras etc and use them remotely.
Problems with training grounds, more than actual grounds, is that they are less secure, harder to keep people out and some/many are overlooked from roads and streets and hills that fans would congregate on trying to look in.
Can't see the advantage of 2 teams etc travelling to a neutral ground rather than one team travelling (for an away game)... I don't understand that tbh.

ArmaniJeanss

eagle eye wrote: »

I'm sure they have a footballers union to protect them in situations like this.

No employer can put you and your family at risk of catching this virus.

100% agreed, no-one can be actively forced to play.

But the corollary is no-one who refuses to play can expect to be paid close to their playing wage. And how many can afford not be paid for any length of time of a very short career.

HanFiredFirst

theoneeyedman wrote: »

Likewise 50 people including cameramen, directors etc.... Set up fixed cameras etc and use them remotely.
Problems with training grounds, more than actual grounds, is that they are less secure, harder to keep people out and some/many are overlooked from roads and streets and hills that fans would congregate on trying to look in.
Can't see the advantage of 2 teams etc travelling to a neutral ground rather than one team travelling (for an away game)... I don't understand that tbh.

West Ham players would be safer playing in London stadium than they would be at their training ground. Portacabins as changing rooms for a team in the richest league in the world.

fyfe79

Martin Tyler AgueroooOO wrote: »

Listening to the Sunday Supplement this morning the journalists on there were saying the vast majority of footballer wan to get back playing as they are very concerned about their livelihood and if it doesn't start back soon they maybe be all out of jobs. The journalists said Aguro was in a very small minority of players who don't want to go back.

I imagine 30-something Aguero, playing for Man City for nearly 10 years, has his money made. As you say though, young players starting to hit the big time will see their potential earnings for the next 10+ years start to slip away the longer they are not playing.

Drumpot

Each the their own I guess but if you take money out of the equation the sport waits a lot longer to open up. Considering we are talking about the premier league where I’d say there isn’t many players on less then 10k a week , it’s a bit weird to be talking about players needing money when that’s the richest league in the world. The players in lower leagues need it more then the EPL lads, so the money argument doesn’t make sense. If anything the EPL should be the last league to be starting up if we look at it from who needs the money the most. That’s why this is all clearly about making money, not making sure those who need money can make it.

In terms of players who don’t want to play, I have an issue with anybody who says they should just put up and play. There is no perfect guarantees that the measures implemented will stop any spread between players and teams. It’s all waffle gymnastics going on to justify the sport starting back up. Players will he effectively forced to put their family and their own health at risk for entertainment down to peer presssure. The sport is only starting back up for money reasons, not necessity, but to make money.

I will watch it if it’s on, I suppose the difference is that I just don’t lie to myself to make myself feel better when I know something is fundamentally wrong.

Martin Tyler AgueroooOO

The average player in the top league is something like 50k a week then paying 50% tax driving a couple of 100k cars with probably a mortgage on a million plus home maybe a holiday home to pay off agents fees looking after family as well wearing all the top designer gear all adds up to needing to work for a lot of players.It will be a long time before players get contracts as good as the ones they are on now the next round of contract talks could see anywhere up to a decrease of 50% in their wages.

Shanotheslayer

Martin Tyler AgueroooOO wrote: »

The average player in the top league is something like 50k a week then paying 50% tax driving a couple of 100k cars with probably a mortgage on a million plus home maybe a holiday home to pay off agents fees looking after family as well wearing all the top designer gear all adds up to needing to work for a lot of players.It will be a long time before players get contracts as good as the ones they are on now the next round of contract talks could see anywhere up to a decrease of 50% in their wages.

My heart bleeds for them. Those poor lads

5starpool

fyfe79 wrote: »

I imagine 30-something Aguero, playing for Man City for nearly 10 years, has his money made. As you say though, young players starting to hit the big time will see their potential earnings for the next 10+ years start to slip away the longer they are not playing.

It's not just that. Players who are 17-20, playing time is really important to them. You often see academy prospects who look good but can't get the game time to help them take the next step, and this will make this true for nearly every player there if this goes on a year or more. Also the players coming to the end of their careers, like Milner maybe, although he is super fit, a long layoff covering this and next season could see some of these retire, which not sad financially for most of the top players, isn't how most would want to bow out.

Martin Tyler AgueroooOO

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

My heart bleeds for them. Those poor lads

Thank you for the great contribution to what is an interesting topic to discuss.



Aren't you one of the posters in the feedback thread complaining about posters doing exactly what you just did in that post making a smart ass comment that adds nothing. May check yourself before you complain about others doing the same thing.

Rayne Wooney

The top leagues will be completely fine and will bounce back close enough to normal. The bottom teams looking to essentially void the season tells you this.

Anything below that is probably finished as we know it, at least below championship level.

Liberta Per Gli Ultra

Drumpot wrote: »

Considering we are talking about the premier league where I’d say there isn’t many players on less then 10k a week , it’s a bit weird to be talking about players needing money when that’s the richest league in the world. The players in lower leagues need it more then the EPL lads, so the money argument doesn’t make sense.

If anything the EPL should be the last league to be starting up if we look at it from who needs the money the most. That’s why this is all clearly about making money, not making sure those who need money can make it.

The sport is only starting back up for money reasons, not necessity, but to make money.

There is a big difference between the wealth of a club and the wealth of its players.

The EPL is definitely the most inflated league in the world, but that's not the same as being rich.

https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/premier-league/relegation-a-must-to-keep-tv-cash-flow-39193625.html

Agent Coulson

On one of the podcasts i was listening to today they were talking about the players union stating that a lot of players are spending hours sitting down and playing video games which id effecting them and the players union is also getting lots of calls for help from players dealing with online gambling at home issues and lots are feeling their mental health is being affected.


Players are desperate to get back playing to get back to the routines they know and the sooner the better.