General Premier League Thread 2019-20

Frazer from Bournemouth another out of contract. Willian too. Both should get biggish moves I'd expect.

theoneeyedman

6 wrote: »

Frazer from Bournemouth another out of contract. Willian too. Both should get biggish moves I'd expect.

Frazier has had a bad season. Form dropped off, and talk (don't know how true) about an attitude problem, and trying to force his way out of Bournemouth.

fyfe79

davemckenna25 wrote: »

So, one major trophy and he had to wait 5 years for it.

Doesn't really stand up to your claim of motivated by the taste of major honours....

Anyhow, you are free to believe what ever you like....

It totally does though...

Was he motivated by being at a club with the possibility of winning the following.... (note that AC forgot last season's runner-up PL finish too);

Agent Coulson wrote: »

He will leave with a Premier League title, Champions League title, Club World Cup title, European Super Cup title as well as a Champions League, Europa League and League Cup runners up medal not bad going at all.

Shanotheslayer

Jesus Christ I can't believe this is even a discussion.

Guy:Incognito

Cantona's Collars wrote: »

H. Whatever they did at Liverpool he was able to run like the energiser bunny even in the 90th minute.

Bringing him on in the 65th minute will do that.

y0ssar1an22

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

Jesus Christ I can't believe this is even a discussion.

lallana?

is their any word on that (contracts, transfer window, etc)?

OwaynOTT

davemckenna25 wrote: »

So, one major trophy and he had to wait 5 years for it.

Doesn't really stand up to your claim of motivated by the taste of major honours....

Anyhow, you are free to believe what ever you like....

Runners up in the europa and champions league definitely gave him a taste of major honours but only a taste.
He was motivated to enjoy the full meal of major honours with these tasters.

bangkok

Kante not going back training with chelsea due to covid 19

Shanotheslayer

Lads what position is Firmino? I get that he plays in the middle of the front 3 so is considered a striker but that's not really his role.

More of a False 9? Like a very forward CAM?

Just discussing it with a few people and his goalscoring record is terrible so I wouldn't really describe him as a Striker(Unless he's a poor finisher)

Gets a lot of praise for his work off the ball

fyfe79

I'd describe Firmino's position as playing in the hole in front of the midfield, and the link between the left and right side of the attack. If there's a name for that, I don't know what it is. Normally those guys playing in the hole, have a nominated striker in front of them, but Firmino doesn't have that.

My own feeling is that Mane and Salah owe an awful lot to Firmino, as he work he does is phenomenal. If he didn't score once all season, I still reckon Klopp would play him every game such is his contribution to the success of the other 2 lads.

bangkok

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

Lads what position is Firmino? I get that he plays in the middle of the front 3 so is considered a striker but that's not really his role.

More of a False 9? Like a very forward CAM?

Just discussing it with a few people and his goalscoring record is terrible so I wouldn't really describe him as a Striker(Unless he's a poor finisher)

Gets a lot of praise for his work off the ball

Not a striker, a roaming attacking forward

RollieFingers

Love Bobby, what a baller he is. Does so much work on the pitch that goes under the radar for the Pool, will be difficult to replace him when the time comes.

Shanotheslayer

RollieFingers wrote: »

Love Bobby, what a baller he is. Does so much work on the pitch that goes under the radar for the Pool, will be difficult to replace him when the time comes.

In terms of replacement I don't think there's many that do what he does. But I also don't think there's many teams that need him. His role is solely suited to how Liverpool play football.

Unless he went to Barca and played deeper to create space for Messi!

Iused2likebusts

He could also play in behind a stiker for lots of other teams.

Shanotheslayer

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

He could also play in behind a stiker for lots of other teams.

Yeh which is what I said. Similar to a CAM

Fitz*

He'd do well in the same false 9 role for Man City too, with Sterling & Mahrez playing up front beside him to come in central with pace. Or if Sane stayed.

Which brings me onto Bayern and he could do well there when they have Sane & Gnabry coming in from wide to score the goals there. Barca would be another but they are always going to be Messi-centric, and they play a similar role.

There's not many forwards like him, but he does suit only certain teams & systems alright. He wouldn't be playing for Leicester or Inter for example.

Shanotheslayer

FitzShane wrote: »

He'd do well in the same false 9 role for Man City too, with Sterling & Mahrez playing up front before him. Or if Sane stayed.

Which brings me onto Bayern and he could do well there when they have Sane & Gnabry coming in from wide to score the goals there. Barca would be another but they are always going to be Messi-centric, and they play a similar role.

There's not many forwards like him, but he does suit only certain teams & systems alright. He wouldn't be playing for Leicester or Inter for example.

Agree. Only reason I wouldn't but City in there is simply because of Aguero. He'll be 65 and still playing for then trying to get that CL :pac:

They also have Jesus who I think is very good but compared to Aguero just not at that level

Skylinehead

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

Lads what position is Firmino? I get that he plays in the middle of the front 3 so is considered a striker but that's not really his role.

More of a False 9? Like a very forward CAM?

Just discussing it with a few people and his goalscoring record is terrible so I wouldn't really describe him as a Striker(Unless he's a poor finisher)

Gets a lot of praise for his work off the ball

Second striker maybe. Poor mans Bergkamp (I mean that as a compliment) with strong work rate. False 9 is probably more apt due to the lack of actual striker in front of the "second" striker.

Iused2likebusts

Goes to show that it doesnt matter who scores your goals as long as the team scores lots of them. Many an argument on here that firmino didnt score enough if you wanted to be winning things.

Fitz*

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

Agree. Only reason I wouldn't but City in there is simply because of Aguero. He'll be 65 and still playing for then trying to get that CL :pac:

They also have Jesus who I think is very good but compared to Aguero just not at that level

Aguero is the best striker in the league this season, and for many season, so there's no replacing him. I don't actually know what type of striker Jesus is going to be yet, but I'm sure people who watch him more are more clued in to that.

Firmino might not score enough goals but he's part of one of the most feared front 3 in Europe and certainly contributes enough towards goals, be it goals assists or pre-assists and yes I am using that term!

I'm fairly sure he is among the top scorers against top 6 clubs in the last couple of seasons too

5starpool

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

Lads what position is Firmino? I get that he plays in the middle of the front 3 so is considered a striker but that's not really his role.

More of a False 9? Like a very forward CAM?

Just discussing it with a few people and his goalscoring record is terrible so I wouldn't really describe him as a Striker(Unless he's a poor finisher)

Gets a lot of praise for his work off the ball

1 goal in 3 for Liverpool (roughly). Hardly terrible even in isolation as a stat.

Shanotheslayer

5starpool wrote: »

1 goal in 3 for Liverpool (roughly). Hardly terrible even in isolation as a stat.

It is compared to the big dogs I would think

8-10

This idea that you don't describe someone's position as a striker because of their goalscoring stats is a bit mad to be honest. It's a position in a formation based on positioning and role, not a position based on stats.

It's like saying I wouldn't describe so and so as a defender because he doesn't get enough clearances, or someone isn't a winger because their crossing stats are poor.

Watch football, don't watch single stats and make assumptions would be my advice. Firmino could have scored zero goals all season...but he's still a striker...thats his position

rgace

Ya, I agree that he should have a few more goals as a striker in an attacking team.

Positionally, I am pretty sure I saw somewhere that Salah's average position on the pitch is further forward than Firmino so whatever position that makes him.

Shanotheslayer

8-10 wrote: »

This idea that you don't describe someone's position as a striker because of their goalscoring stats is a bit mad to be honest. It's a position in a formation based on positioning and role, not a position based on stats.

It's like saying I wouldn't describe so and so as a defender because he doesn't get enough clearances, or someone isn't a winger because their crossing stats are poor.

Watch football, don't watch single stats and make assumptions would be my advice. Firmino could have scored zero goals all season...but he's still a striker...thats his position

Strikers score goals. A striker should be judged on the goals he scored.

You're complicating it by talking about wingers and defenders because that's a lot more variables

Fitz*

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

Strikers score goals. A striker should be judged on the goals he scored.

You're complicating it by talking about wingers and defenders because that's a lot more variables

I always call Firmino a forward myself, and not a striker. But I call Sterling, Mane, Salah etc forwards too.

To me, strikers are the more Aguero, Kane, Costa type players. Out and out number 9s. Maybe that's just me though and being pedantic.

Utopia Parkway

Agent Coulson wrote: »

He will leave with a Premier League title, Champions League title, Club World Cup title, European Super Cup title as well as a Champions League, Europa League and League Cup runners up medal not bad going at all.

Game, set and match.

ShamoBuc

FitzShane wrote: »

I always call Firmino a forward myself, and not a striker. But I call Sterling, Mane, Salah etc forwards too.

To me, strikers are the more Aguero, Kane, Costa type players. Out and out number 9s. Maybe that's just me though and being pedantic.

Agree with that. He doesn't play the normal number 9 role so comparing him only on goals he has scored does him something of a disservice. He creates so much with his hard work, passing and movement. Looking at him with regard to goals scored by players either side of him would be interesting to look at. Watching Bobby play is a joy at times, it really is. He is a fans favourite for what he brings to the team, we can see that in every game he plays!! This is why rating him on goals alone is a flawed reasoning in itself.

Cantona's Collars

https://twitter.com/TeleFootball/status/1264647355485294610?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1264647355485294610%7Ctwgr%5E&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fs9e.github.io%2Fiframe%2F2%2Ftwitter.min.html1264647355485294610

AidoEirE

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

Lads what position is Firmino? I get that he plays in the middle of the front 3 so is considered a striker but that's not really his role.

More of a False 9? Like a very forward CAM?

Just discussing it with a few people and his goalscoring record is terrible so I wouldn't really describe him as a Striker(Unless he's a poor finisher)

Gets a lot of praise for his work off the ball

Big fan of firmino, he's playe's the centre of the trio buy busts his hole, he aloow's salah and mane to go at it. Has a chop himself when afforefed. A huge part in that matchday squad

Mitch Connor

Man United telling a few clubs they don't require them to pay loan fees on players from United, due to the Covid-19 crisis.

What a class club, leading the way in so many cases over the last few months. Can't buy that kind of class.

gimli2112

https://www.football365.com/news/curtis-woodhouse-ryan-giggs-man-utd-unbelievably-overrated-gareth-bale

As a Liverpool supporter I'll admit to a lot more than a little bias here but I do think Giggs was overrated . I can admit Scholes, Keane , Cantona et al were fantastic players but I've always been a little cold on Giggs.
Heresy or am I and this left back midfielder I've never heard of onto something?

Shanotheslayer

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Man United telling a few clubs they don't require them to pay loan fees on players from United, due to the Covid-19 crisis.

What a class club, leading the way in so many cases over the last few months. Can't buy that kind of class.

They must be going to pay it out of sueing FM20

Mitch Connor

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

They must be going to pay it out of sueing FM20

I for one would have no problem sticking Rarcus Mashford up front for Man Red in the next edition!

citytillidie

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

They must be going to pay it out of sueing FM20

That is a odd one open a case against Sega and SI for using Manchester United infringing on copyright and then saying they did not use the badge.

Rock77

gimli2112 wrote: »

https://www.football365.com/news/curtis-woodhouse-ryan-giggs-man-utd-unbelievably-overrated-gareth-bale

As a Liverpool supporter I'll admit to a lot more than a little bias here but I do think Giggs was overrated . I can admit Scholes, Keane , Cantona et al were fantastic players but I've always been a little cold on Giggs.
Heresy or am I and this left back midfielder I've never heard of onto something?

Crazy stuff to be honest, Giggs was top class when he first came on the scene. Lightning pace, beat the full back every time. Great left foot, took free kicks and corners.

As he lost his pace he played more central and his passing was excellent.

Never the best player in the world but certainly one of the best in the premier league.

I don’t think it’s in doubt that Giggs was more than a ‘good player’

Shanotheslayer

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

They must be going to pay it out of sueing FM20

How come its only an issue now?

Is it down to the big drop in revenue, and large interest payments?

Speak Now

Giggs was an amazing player, occasionally people tend to rewrite history based on the later years of a person's career. Hard to believe he only lined out for Wales 64 times over his lengthy career though.

Speak Now

Speak Now wrote: »

Giggs was an amazing player, occasionally people tend to rewrite history based on the later years of a person's career. Hard to believe he only lined out for Wales 64 times over his lengthy career though.

Lack of tournament finals didnt help,

8-10

I wouldn't call Giggs under or over rated. He's very well regarded to about the level that he should be. Not always the case with PL players. Shouldn't have to debate how good Giggs was with anyone.

Mitch Connor

Giggs was a top player and a consistent performer throughout his career - but there are absolutely players who shone brighter. But that still comes down to one player being better (arguably) doesn't make another player rubbish.

I would say Bale has hit higher highs that Giggs did, I would say Pires was probably the better of the two when they were both playing. Prior to Pires was there a better left midfielder in the PL than Giggs? Can't think of a Blackburn, Newcastle, Liverpool or Arsenal player I would take over him in that period. Then as you move forward there could be players you would take over Giggs (Pires, for example) but there wouldn't be many.

Speaking of Newcastle (though Spurs at the time...) HOW THE FECK DID GINOLA GET PLAYER OF THE YEAR IN 1999. Absolute JOKE. 3 goals in the league. 3. Sure, Roy Keane captained his side to a treble. Yorke got like 27 goals and near the same number of assists (in all comps). Beckham had an amazing season on the back of Argentina in 98. But David effing Ginola with his 3 goals for 11th placed Spurs gets PFA Player of the Year.

8-10

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Prior to Pires was there a better left midfielder in the PL than Giggs?

Eh...John Barnes!

Mitch Connor

8-10 wrote: »

Eh...John Barnes!

I had totally forgotten about him tbh.

Still would take Giggs over him when they were competing. Barnes at his peak (89 - 92?is far more arguable, but Barnes' peak came before Giggs really hit stride.

I don't think Barnes in the second half or last third of his career is arguable over Giggs.

8-10

Mitch Connor wrote: »

I had totally forgotten about him tbh.

Still would take Giggs over him when they were competing. Barnes at his peak (89 - 92?is far more arguable, but Barnes' peak came before Giggs really hit stride.

I don't think Barnes in the second half or last third of his career is arguable over Giggs.

Yeah obviously you're picking Barnes over Giggs prior to 1992! And Giggs after that is fair, certainly from '94 onwards.

Just think Barnes is one of the finest players I've seen so if we're bringing Pires into this you can't ignore Barnes who I think was the better player easily. England's best ever left-sided player.

Giggs or Barnes in their peak would be a personal preference, both exceptional

gimli2112

Barnes was a super player for us. The 88 team was one of the strongest I remember and he was easily the best player. Probably not helped that he never did it internationally (one Brazil goal aside) and is probably associated with our decline.

yourdeadwright

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Giggs was a top player and a consistent performer throughout his career - but there are absolutely players who shone brighter. But that still comes down to one player being better (arguably) doesn't make another player rubbish.

I would say Bale has hit higher highs that Giggs did, I would say Pires was probably the better of the two when they were both playing. Prior to Pires was there a better left midfielder in the PL than Giggs? Can't think of a Blackburn, Newcastle, Liverpool or Arsenal player I would take over him in that period. Then as you move forward there could be players you would take over Giggs (Pires, for example) but there wouldn't be many.

Speaking of Newcastle (though Spurs at the time...) HOW THE FECK DID GINOLA GET PLAYER OF THE YEAR IN 1999. Absolute JOKE. 3 goals in the league. 3. Sure, Roy Keane captained his side to a treble. Yorke got like 27 goals and near the same number of assists (in all comps). Beckham had an amazing season on the back of Argentina in 98. But David effing Ginola with his 3 goals for 11th placed Spurs gets PFA Player of the Year.

Giggs had the best career of any left winger in the Prem without question ,Giggs is a premier league great no question ,

Was Giggs the best left winger ever in the Prem NO not even close,

Pires was a far better player,Hazard better, Bale , hell even Mane in his last two season has been better than Giggs ever was,

Giggs was a fantastic player no question and kept a great level for 20 years and achieved more than anyone ,
He's greatness was his longevity .
It sounds mental to say but Giggs probably never reaches his full potential in terms of Personal performances , Unreal servant for his club ,

TitianGerm

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Giggs was a top player and a consistent performer throughout his career - but there are absolutely players who shone brighter. But that still comes down to one player being better (arguably) doesn't make another player rubbish.

I would say Bale has hit higher highs that Giggs did, I would say Pires was probably the better of the two when they were both playing. Prior to Pires was there a better left midfielder in the PL than Giggs? Can't think of a Blackburn, Newcastle, Liverpool or Arsenal player I would take over him in that period. Then as you move forward there could be players you would take over Giggs (Pires, for example) but there wouldn't be many.

Speaking of Newcastle (though Spurs at the time...) HOW THE FECK DID GINOLA GET PLAYER OF THE YEAR IN 1999. Absolute JOKE. 3 goals in the league. 3. Sure, Roy Keane captained his side to a treble. Yorke got like 27 goals and near the same number of assists (in all comps). Beckham had an amazing season on the back of Argentina in 98. But David effing Ginola with his 3 goals for 11th placed Spurs gets PFA Player of the Year.

Harry Kewell was pretty dam good at Leeds.

Mitch Connor

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Giggs had the best career of any left winger in the Prem without question ,Giggs is a premier league great no question ,

Was Giggs the best left winger ever in the Prem NO not even close,

Pires was a far better player, hell even Mane in his last two season has been better than Giggs ever was,

Giggs was a fantastic player no question and kept a great level for 20 years and achieved more than anyone ,
He's greatness was his longevity .
It sounds mental to say but Giggs probably never reaches his full potential in terms of Personal performances , Unreal servant for his club ,

The Mane comparison is interesting because to me they are entirely different players.

Giggs was a left sided midfielder.
Mane is a left sided forward.

Giggs didn't really play the same role, and I don't think he would be as good as Mane at that role. But I also don't think mane would be as good as a left sided midfielder.

Same way I wouldn't class Ronaldo as a left sided midfielder (though he played that more so when he came into the side at United first). He was played as a forward. Same as Henry. Henry played from left, but wasn't a left midfielder (like Giggs).

Same as I wouldn't say Salah (Right forward) plays the same role as Valencia or Beckham (right midfield) did for United.

That is not to argue (here and now) that Giggs was better overall than Mane or vice-versa, oh boy do I not have the desire for that (!!), but I don't think you can compare them on the basis of them playing the same position, cause I just don't think they did.

yourdeadwright

Mitch Connor wrote: »

The Mane comparison is interesting because to me they are entirely different players.

Giggs was a left sided midfielder.
Mane is a left sided forward.

Giggs didn't really play the same role, and I don't think he would be as good as Mane at that role. But I also don't think mane would be as good as a left sided midfielder.

Same way I wouldn't class Ronaldo as a left sided midfielder (though he played that more so when he came into the side at United first). He was played as a forward. Same as Henry. Henry played from left, but wasn't a left midfielder (like Giggs).

Same as I wouldn't say Salah (Right forward) plays the same role as Valencia or Beckham (right midfield) did for United.

That is not to argue (here and now) that Giggs was better overall than Mane or vice-versa, oh boy do I not have the desire for that (!!), but I don't think you can compare them on the basis of them playing the same position, cause I just don't think they did.

That's a valid point

Again Giggs is a great no question but he peaked at 21 , now he was still a great player after that but 21 was the peak of his powers ,

I know the game has changed but for me the likes of Hazard, Mane, Bale are far better players in terms of personal performance than Giggs was ,

Again Giggs done it for 20 years at a high level of performance which is insane ,

I also think Pires was a better player ,

Barnes > Mane imo.