General Premier League Thread 2019-20

gimli2112

Drumpot wrote: »

“Hmmm, maybe the thread title is incorrect and this is really Liverpool FC Team Talk, Gossip, Rumours 2019/2020” :pac:

Would you prefer to talk about whether Ole should be sacked or that Jose wasn't given enough time?
I do however like the debate as to whether the current Liverpool team is the GOAT

pjohnson

TitianGerm wrote: »

So a rotational CM now dictates if a team is great/good or not now? When was that decided?

Liverpool best midfield on paper is Fabhino, Kieta and Henderson.

Wijnaldum instead of Kieta no?

gimli2112

pjohnson wrote: »

Wijnaldum instead of Kieta no?

Keita has looked very good in his recent stint, the problem is he can only play 3 games and breaks down. I'd have him as first choice but he needs a decent run.

TitianGerm

pjohnson wrote: »

Wijnaldum instead of Kieta no?

No not over a fully fit Kieta. Gini would be a swap for Henderson. Kieta is a completely different kind of player to Gini and always tries to drive forward. Gini is great at recycling the ball though.

Edit: the problem is Kieta keeps picking up niggly injuries and they force him to miss a few games in a row.

Potential Underachiever

pjohnson wrote: »

Wijnaldum instead of Kieta no?

Yes, the odd flash here and there in a year and a half from Keita is nowhere near enough to dislodge the ever consistent and reliable Wijnaldum. Gini is a superb player.

rob316

Peps City for 2 seasons were the best league side I've seen, 100 points in the first winning season and it took something special to withstand the pressure of Liverpool last season giving us the best title race yet.

To be a truly great team though I believe you need to dominate Europe too, if Liverpool could win another CL on top of the PL this season there would be in the argument for the best ever.

PhlegmyMoses

FitzShane wrote: »

Players are fitter and stronger these days, they have evolved as athletes. They get up and down the flanks more, perform more sprints and run a lot more in the
game. Constant high energy pressing is a feature of the game now that wasn't seen 20 years ago I'm fairly sure this is backed up stastically too..

A top team from the current era would beat any team from 10 years ago, just like any team from 2010 would beat a 90s team who would beat an 80s team and how a team from 2030 would beat them all.

Sport science & data analysis is making players better.

Not doubting their qualities at all but can you imagine Keane or Scholes trying to tackle KDB and win the ball off of him without being sent off, or chasing him & Silva aound for 90 mins with the workrate and constant pressing being put in. Look at the scoring output of Beckham & Overmars compared to Salah, Mane & Sterling, added to their incredible work rate and constant sprinting forwards and backwards. Aguero can occupy 2 defenders on his own, compared to back in the 90s when it took 2 forwards to do it. The full back position has evolved more than any in the game and the flying full backs with their constant attacking and crossing in the attacking areas but still able to be in position 15 seconds later to defend and ready to go again instantly.

Sure, older teams would win a physical battle over the modern teams but then the modern teams could pass any team off of the park, or out work them, or out run them.

Just on this. Yes I can imagine Keane and Scholes winning the ball off KDB without getting sent off. They were both exceptionally fit players and amazing at football. Scholes only retired 7 years ago ffs. Is this really a thing that you believe? What age are you?

And then comparing Beckham and Overmars to Salah and Mane, when those two are the Liverpool scorers and Beckham and Overmars were not. Andy Cole and Thierry Henry comfortably outscored Firmino. But Firmino does different things, so I am not using that as a stick to beat him with.

Denis Irwin, Patrice Evra, Gary Neville, Ashley Cole, Lauren etc all made a career out of getting up and down the pitch at fullback. Cafu was the most offside player at the 2002 world cup

This whole post is just absolute **** tier stuff. What an awful take based on recency bias alone.

Gbear

The notion that Henderson is some kind of deadweight or that other players have to mitigate against his presence is literally insane.

With DeBruyne around few are going to outdo him for the best midfielder in the league, but Henderson is certainly in the team of the season. He's been absolutely outrageously good for the past few months in particular.

Even the lads in the Liverpool thread who complain about literally ****ing everything always have stopped having a go at him.

When you're comparing teams across time in different competitions it's a bit pointless trying to rank them.
Liverpool play like this because they believed (probably correctly), that if you want to win a league with this City team, you basically have to win every game. They pretty much did that last season, and it wasn't quite enough.
If they weren't doing it this season, the lack of pressure on City could well mean that City would be top of the league.

You can't just say that if Liverpool had dropped another 4 or 5 points then the gap would be the same minus those points. Momentum, pressure on teams chasing and leading the pack and so on can all have effects that impact future results.

Liverpool as ruthless and efficient. There isn't really room here for the buccanneering football of Rodgers or first and second season Klopp. Liverpool are probably, personnel wise, about the best team in the league (City's defence has fallen behind), but there's not a whole lot in it. They're not so much better than the rest of the league from 2-20 that they can rock up and win at a canter every week.

What sets this team apart is the intensity and unrelenting nature. The quality is there. You can't win anything without it. But it's not the defining element of this team in the way it was with Pep's Barca.

They had better players, but one could make the argument that this team is roughly as good, because a team isn't just the sum total of it's individuals.

Baggly

Bad tackle by PEA yesterday. Any word on the lad he tackled. Maybe it was one that looked worse than it was (still a red).

LuckyLloyd

So the new ‘Alamo’ is that Liverpool couldn’t be the greatest team of all time. We are only about 19 months removed from the ‘Klopp can’t win a final brigade’ raucously celebrating the Madrid final. What a ride this is!

BullBlackNova

Apologies for veering off topic here but just wanted to point out the massive relegation six pointer this afternoon. Watford v Bournemouth.

Theres a good pief in the Sunday Times today arguing that Eddie Howe should not be sacked - even in the case of relegation - but it shows just how badly things have gone this season thay the conversation is even being had. Two wins since September 20 is appalling.

I know they have had an injury crisis throughout the squad but you'd have to question whether he should be getting more out of Ake, Fraser, etc when they are available.

I don't think he'll be dumped but a defeat today to another relegation rival could ramp up the pressure again.

PhlegmyMoses

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

So the new ‘Alamo’ is that Liverpool couldn’t be the greatest team of all time. We are only about 19 months removed from the ‘Klopp can’t win a final brigade’ raucously celebrating the Madrid final. What a ride this is!

If by Alamo you mean Liverpool fans in this thread comparing their team to Pep's Barca and using reductive arguments to retroactively misrepresent the accomplishments of other teams, and everyone else saying "Eh maybe not though" then yes you are right.

It's like when you were younger and your mate got the ride for the first time and goes on like he was the first in the world to be at it.

redzerdrog

Wijnaldum > Keita every day of the week

Also the ox isn't works class argument is beyond stupid. He probably 5th choice midfielder and a fantastic option to have

Rayne Wooney

The greatest team of all time that haven’t won a league title in 30 years, it just gets better and better

Sanity_Saviour

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

If by Alamo you mean Liverpool fans in this thread comparing their team to Pep's Barca and using reductive arguments to retroactively misrepresent the accomplishments of other teams, and everyone else saying "Eh maybe not though" then yes you are right.

It's like when you were younger and your mate got the ride for the first time and goes on like he was the first in the world to be at it.

Ah don't encourage them

ShamoBuc

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

The greatest team of all time that haven’t won a league title in 30 years, it just gets better and better

Same team playing for 30 years - fair dues to them though :rolleyes:

Shanotheslayer

Did the Madrid team that won 3 CL in a row win a league?

LuckyLloyd

Why would Howe avoid being sacked? Every manager in every club goes stale (apart from a handful of historical examples) and clearly Howe has run his course at this point.

Nijmegen

Just on the point of what makes a great team, surely by its nature a great team/squad is one where the sum is greater than its parts. Barca with Pep was a great team. It had one of the best players in the world, Messi. Argentina also has Messi. Argentina with Messi is not one of the greatest squads in world football. Ronaldo went to Juve, they’re still hosing the domestic league but where’s that CL?

The Liverpool squad, which has been assembled with a net spend of something like £80m in Klopps time, both has some of the worlds best players today (VVD for example) and some lads who had distinctly average backgrounds who are playing like different animals and achieving at the highest levels.

It is correct to say this squad is not yet one of the all time classics, but it’s clear to see that they are on track to claim a place in the footballing memory if they keep it up. And it’s the very nature of combining super talent with more regular talent and turning it into a machine that will, if they get there, see them go into the hall of fame alongside some of Fergie and Pep and others all time classics.

RasTa

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

So the new ‘Alamo’ is that Liverpool couldn’t be the greatest team of all time. We are only about 19 months removed from the ‘Klopp can’t win a final brigade’ raucously celebrating the Madrid final. What a ride this is!

Ah so you're the greatest team in the history of the premiership and since football began now? OF course you are.

Rayne Wooney

Leicester surely the greatest team of all time by that metric, won a league within the last 30 years and spent around 400 million less than Klopp too

redzerdrog

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Leicester surely the greatest team of all time by that metric, won a league within the last 30 years and spent around 400 million less than Klopp too

That argument makes zero sense

redzerdrog

Interesting that Leicester have 1 more point this season than they had at the same point of their league winning season

Nijmegen

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Leicester surely the greatest team of all time by that metric, won a league within the last 30 years and spent around 400 million less than Klopp too

I think the consensus in the thread so far is that a great team is one that accomplishes over several seasons, ala the Fergie era united teams that won back to backs and so on.

The Leicester title winning team will go down in PL history with some real accolades for what they accomplished in their season, but for a variety of reasons they didn’t get a chance to cement themselves as more than a one time runner.

This Liverpool team could equally end up in the same basket. As Klopp said yesterday, nobody will remember the record in 50 years that they had the best ever start to a season if they don’t win it.

LuckyLloyd

RasTa wrote: »

Ah so you're the greatest team in the history of the premiership and since football began now? OF course you are.

I didn’t say we were, but I am certainly enjoying that it’s a discussion.

noodler

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

The greatest team of all time that haven’t won a league title in 30 years, it just gets better and better

Four thanks for this but it doesn't make any sense.

That'd be greatest club, we are talking about teams in cycles.

Suppose it was a good lightning rod for your utd buddies.

Drumpot

Drumpot wrote: »

Opens general premier league thread 2019/2020



“Hmmm, maybe the thread title is incorrect and this is really Liverpool FC Team Talk, Gossip, Rumours 2019/2020” :pac:

Rayne Wooney

If we’re talking premier league it would have to go

1. United 98-01
2. United 07-09
3. City 17-19
4. Chelsea 04-06
5. Arsenal 01-02
6. Leicester

citytillidie

Damn what a 10 years for non Liverpool fans on boards commenting on Liverpool from saying Liverpool should never have sacked Roy saying how rude it was to sack a man who has a great record with getting Fulham to the UEFA Cup final and keeping them up to last season saying when VAR is brought in then Liverpool will fall away in the league to now they are only top because of VAR and the rest of the league is poor.

.G.

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

If we’re talking premier league it would have to go

1. United 98-01
2. United 07-09
3. City 17-19
4. Chelsea 04-06
5. Arsenal 01-02
6. Leicester

And honestly as Liverpool fan the only point of this I'd argue with is Leicester, great achievement but not a great team cos they reverted back to mean when the bigger clubs got their sh!t together.

I personally couldn't give a sh!t where this Liverpool team ranks in the pantheon of great teams, it's not for me to decide as a follower of said team nor can it be decided in the here and now. It's achievements can only be judged when its time has passed and we have all the facts.

I'm only interested in what trophies they land.

callaway92

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

If we’re talking premier league it would have to go

1. United 98-01
2. United 07-09
3. City 17-19
4. Chelsea 04-06
5. Arsenal 01-02
6. Leicester

Arsenal 01-02 comes above the invincibles which doesn’t make the list at all?

qm1bv4p8i92aoj

The biggest disappointment this season is if we win the rest of our games, will be looking at those two points that were robbed from us by VAR and Atkinson at man u. Officials still in man u's back pocket obviously. A perfect season ruined by corruption.

This is great fun

sideswipe

Drumpot wrote: »

Opens general premier league thread 2019/2020



“Hmmm, maybe the thread title is incorrect and this is really Liverpool FC Team Talk, Gossip, Rumours 2019/2020” :pac:

Or the Manchester United history thread;)

LuckyLloyd

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I didn’t say we were, but I am certainly enjoying that it’s a discussion.

It's brilliant

Agent Coulson

If Howe loses today you have to wonder will Bournemouth pull the trigger an sack him or do they stick with him and go down hoping he can rebuild them in the Championship next summer.

Because right now they are going down as they have no form whatsoever.

citytillidie

citytillidie wrote: »

Damn what a 10 years for non Liverpool fans on boards commenting on Liverpool from saying Liverpool should never have sacked Roy saying how rude it was to sack a man who has a great record with getting Fulham to the UEFA Cup final and keeping them up to last season saying when VAR is brought in then Liverpool will fall away in the league to now they are only top because of VAR and the rest of the league is poor.

Klopp was called a flop a year ago. Funny place sometimes

Drumpot

sideswipe wrote: »

Or the Manchester United history thread;)

I am a United fan but I’m not Castor Troy to your John Archer in the context of this response.

I watched the movie face off the other day cause it’s just a classic. Basically a guy takes the face of his nemesis (literally takes his face) and pretends to be him and then the baddy takes the goodies face and pretends to be good.

This is exactly what some of the Liverpool and United fans do in this forum. When one team is better then the other , one set of Fans becomes exactly like their rivals when they were winning and vice Versa. Yee are all as bad as each other and the worst part of it is probably when one side takes a moral high ground that they really aren’t in a position to take.

The White Wolf

Quazzie wrote: »

This nonsense is why people hate Liverpool fans.

Love being hated; beats the faux sympathy of the dark days a decade ago.

Dry your eyes my son ya better get used to it.

Sanity_Saviour

Agent Coulson wrote: »

If Howe loses today you have to wonder will Bournemouth pull the trigger an sack him or do they stick with him and go down hoping he can rebuild them in the Championship next summer.

Because right now they are going down as they have no form whatsoever.

And what would happen if they sacked him

Cantona's Collars

callaway92 wrote: »

Arsenal 01-02 comes above the invincibles which doesn’t make the list at all?

It's all open to interpretation,to be called great you'd probably have to be winning leagues or if not challenging to the final hurdle season in, season out.
I suppose Leicester make it as it was such an underdog moment and who doesn't like a fairy tale.

noodler

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Leicester surely the greatest team of all time by that metric, won a league within the last 30 years and spent around 400 million less than Klopp too

This is the type of nonsense that has people hating Utd fans.


Wink.

yourdeadwright

I know Ndidi and Tielemans have got a lot of credit for how they have played this season and rightly so but how good is Giní at Liverpool,

He has totally reinvited his position since he joined and I reckon is currently the most underrated player in the Prem he is amazing at recycling the ball and restarting attacks something that can be overlooked

I reckon he is the Prem most underrated player

FitzShane

FitzShane wrote: »

Players are fitter and stronger these days, they have evolved as athletes. They get up and down the flanks more, perform more sprints and run a lot more in the
game. Constant high energy pressing is a feature of the game now that wasn't seen 20 years ago I'm fairly sure this is backed up stastically too..

A top team from the current era would beat any team from 10 years ago, just like any team from 2010 would beat a 90s team who would beat an 80s team and how a team from 2030 would beat them all.

Sport science & data analysis is making players better.

Not doubting their qualities at all but can you imagine Keane or Scholes trying to tackle KDB and win the ball off of him without being sent off, or chasing him & Silva aound for 90 mins with the workrate and constant pressing being put in. Look at the scoring output of Beckham & Overmars compared to Salah, Mane & Sterling, added to their incredible work rate and constant sprinting forwards and backwards. Aguero can occupy 2 defenders on his own, compared to back in the 90s when it took 2 forwards to do it. The full back position has evolved more than any in the game and the flying full backs with their constant attacking and crossing in the attacking areas but still able to be in position 15 seconds later to defend and ready to go again instantly.

Sure, older teams would win a physical battle over the modern teams but then the modern teams could pass any team off of the park, or out work them, or out run them.

That's true.

There is no doubt that players today are fitter.

Which is why fitness is only one aspect people consider when judging the best, and perhaps a minor aspect compared to things like technical ability. Otherwise one would reach ludicrous conclusions like saying Henderson was better than Pele based on Opta stats. It's interesting that you refer to the fullback position, the role has certainly evolved but surely no one has influenced that more than Carlos Alberto.

It may be correct that Liverpool today could out pass Brazil 1970 but as the bad old joke goes, their average ago must now be 75. The question would be how greater that Brazil team might have been had they access to today's coaching methods, sports psychologists, dieticians etc.

Iused2likebusts

Should the greatest team ever not really be based on one season. It's pretty pointless if it's over a 3 or 4 year cycle as the team changes every year with new signings.

noodler

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That's true.

There is no doubt that players today are fitter.

Which is why fitness is only one aspect people consider when judging the best, and perhaps a minor aspect compared to things like technical ability. Otherwise one would reach ludicrous conclusions like saying Henderson was better than Pele based on Opta stats. It's interesting that you refer to the fullback position, the role has certainly evolved but surely no one has influenced that more than Carlos Alberto.

It may be correct that Liverpool today could out pass Brazil 1970 but as the bad old joke goes, their average ago must now be 75. The question would be how greater that Brazil team might have been had they access to today's coaching methods, sports psychologists, dieticians etc.

Whataboutery to the nth degree there.

Impressive.

What if this Liverpool team got to play the same number of amateur teams the 1970s Brazil team got to batter on a regular basis?

Iused2likebusts

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

Should the greatest team ever not really be based on one season. It's pretty pointless if it's over a 3 or 4 year cycle as the team changes every year with new signings.

A good reason would be winning the league and then having more or less the same team retaining it the following season

That would really be hard to argue against

Each to there own I suppose!

noodler

noodler wrote: »

Whataboutery to the nth degree there.

Impressive.

What if this Liverpool team got to play the same number of amateur teams the 1970s Brazil team got to batter on a regular basis?

How is discussing the Brazil team whataboutery when I referred to the Brazil team and another poster analysed what I said and I am responding to him?

Are you just blurting out words that come into your head but have no sensible application?

You are, of course, entitled to dismiss the Brazil team of 1970 because they battered a bunch of amateurs. You just have a different opinion to most football analysts and pundits since who refer to them as the greatest ever. As that's good, I think it's always useful for someone to go completely against prevailing thought.

Harry Palmr

Bournemouth seem to have naivety woven into their fabric this season.

gimli2112

the tricky part is going again, it's why Ferguson was so great, same with Brian Cody and Kilkenny.
Still you have to talk about the team in a particular season when considering the greatest. Liverpool pointswise have been miles ahead the last 18 months or so, thanks to VAR. Can't argue with facts like these.

RugbyLover123

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

If we’re talking premier league it would have to go

1. United 98-01
2. United 07-09
3. City 17-19
4. Chelsea 04-06
5. Arsenal 01-02
6. Leicester

That’s just embarrassing bias from a United fan.

If Liverpool were to continue their form for the rest of the season, some United fans would still have an excuse. Current Liverpool team would wipe the floor with that Leicester team. Not a word about how poor the standard was that season.