General Premier League Thread 2019-20

RugbyLover123

Everyone knows the Premier League was at its most competitive and peak when the giants of Blackburn, Aston Villa & Newcastle were battling it out at the top.

Harry Palmr

What's the FA Cup got to do with anything? Watford having basically fluked their way past a dozing Wolves were in the throws of their bad management phase, getting skitled by a rampant City was hardly a shock even if it was game no one will remember. Put Pearsons Watford against this seasons City and it'll not be a cricket score.

TitianGerm

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Brave comment to make in January. We'll see how well it ages.
.

I'm sure it'll age fine in context to your comment in which I replied to. You gave stats at today's date which do show Liverpool as the best them in Europe.

Salary Negotiator

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Laughable to suggest the rest are the same as every other year. What Chelsea, Tottenham, Man United, Arsenal, or even Man City fan would agree with that?

Different order, similar quality overall.

8-10

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Brave comment to make in January.

Somebody has to be the best team in Europe in January. Who do you think it is right now?

Fitz*

There once was a PL era where the top 4 was a closed shop and they just beat everyone below them. Bad quality in the bottom 16 and they knew it. Bad managers and really bad players.

It was up to the other 16 teams to improve there level higher and 'catch up' to the rest to make it more competitive. And it looks like they have done. They are building teams that are able to complete with teams domestically and in Europe. 4 English finalists in last year's European competition. 7 are through the groups stage so far this season.

Either through oil money, outside money, TV money or just some well run football clubs, the rest have brought their level up closer to the traditional top teams. They have made it more competitive. Wolves are probably the best example. Yes some money behind them, but they are well coached and have some damn good players that clubs are around the league and Europe would like to have. They have a coach that has won leagues in Europe and is sought after. Smaller PL clubs are able to buy players from top regional teams like Porto. Everton have Carlo Ancelotti as manager. There was links that Bayern Munich want to buy players from Crystal Palace. Aston Villa are buying players from CL clubs and they are in a relegation battle. The manager of Southampton had his previous job at one of the better teams in the Bundesliga.

Shanotheslayer

People seem to misunderstand the difference between a competitive title race and a competitive league.

j8wk2feszrnpao

FitzShane wrote: »

There once was a PL era where the top 4 was a closed shop and they just beat everyone below them. Bad quality in the bottom 16 and they knew it. Bad managers and really bad players.

And the PL is about to have its 5th different winner in 8 seasons.

It’s Real and Barca again in La Liga.
Juve clear at the top of Serie A, going for a 9th title in a row.
Good battle at the top of the Bundesliga, which includes Bayern Munich going for an 8th title in a row.
PSG have won 7 of the last 8 Ligue 1 titles. Well clear at the top this season.

Mr.Nice Guy

TitianGerm wrote:

I'm sure it'll age fine in context to your comment in which I replied to. You gave stats at today's date which do show Liverpool as the best them in Europe.

They don't show that, though. They show Liverpool far and away the best in their own league, which you conclude to mean they are the best team in Europe.

Harry Palmr wrote: »

What's the FA Cup got to do with anything? Watford having basically fluked their way past a dozing Wolves were in the throws of their bad management phase, getting skitled by a rampant City was hardly a shock even if it was game no one will remember. Put Pearsons Watford against this seasons City and it'll not be a cricket score.

Do you think the fact Watford lost 14-0 to Man City on aggregate over two meetings, one of which was a cup final, helps your case that it's a competitive league?

Salary Negotiator wrote:

Different order, similar quality overall.

Nonsense. They have all regressed and we both know it.

8-10 wrote:

Somebody has to be the best team in Europe in January. Who do you think it is right now?

Right now? I'd say PSG.

FitzShane wrote:

There once was a PL era where the top 4 was a closed shop and they just beat everyone below them. Bad quality in the bottom 16 and they knew it. Bad managers and really bad players.

It was up to the other 16 teams to improve there level higher and 'catch up' to the rest to make it more competitive. And it looks like they have done. They are building teams that are able to complete with teams domestically and in Europe. 4 English finalists in last year's European competition. 7 are through the groups stage so far this season.

Either through oil money, outside money, TV money or just some well run football clubs, the rest have brought their level up closer to the traditional top teams. They have made it more competitive. Wolves are probably the best example. Yes some money behind them, but they are well coached and have some damn good players that clubs are around the league and Europe would like to have. They have a coach that has won leagues in Europe and is sought after. Smaller PL clubs are able to buy players from top regional teams like Porto. Everton have Carlo Ancelotti as manager. There was links that Bayern Munich want to buy players from Crystal Palace. Aston Villa are buying players from CL clubs and they are in a relegation battle. The manager of Southampton had his previous job at one of the better teams in the Bundesliga.

What years specifically are you thinking of when you refer to a closed top 4 and poor players and management below because I don't recognise this description. And you're referencing United and Arsenal when you talk up the quality of their European showings. I watched their Europa campaigns and they were dismal. Spurs were walloped by a Bayern team that later sacked their coach. Chelsea weren't impressive either and scraped through. Wolves are still miles away from the likes of Liverpool and Man City.

Saw this in a NYT article from last April:

Between them, according to figures compiled by the data provider Opta Sports, the Premier League’s top two entered the weekend accounting for 17.9 percent of all the points won in England’s top flight this season. That is a level of dominance that has not been seen since the late 1890s. If anything, though, the season feels as if it is very much in keeping with a pattern.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/26/sports/premier-league-liverpool-manchester-city.html

This season is what happens when one of the dominant duo falls away.

fullstop

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

They don't show that, though. They show Liverpool far and away the best in their own league, which you conclude to mean they are the best team in Europe.

Are they not European Champions? I must have imagined that. But keep digging.

Shanotheslayer

PSG the best team in Europe despite always failing in the CL league.

That's a first.

Mr.Nice Guy

fullstop wrote: »

Are they not European Champions? I must have imagined that. But keep digging.

They were European Champions last season. This is the season where they defend their crowd.

Amusing you think I'm digging. I called it uncompetitive last season and Liverpool haven't lost a single league game in the time since I said so. Everything that has happened this season has vindicated my argument.

Shanotheslayer wrote:

PSG the best team in Europe despite always failing in the CL league.

That's a first.

The questioner asked me my opinion right now. Given in their group campaign they were impressive, finishing comfortably ahead of a Madrid team that is second in La Liga on goal difference, they have as good a case as anyone. It's all subjective at this stage anyway.

Agent Coulson

FitzShane wrote: »

Can you remember which podcast this was? Episode even?

One was the BT football writers podcast with David Preece on it who knows that part of the world well for sure and I'm pretty sure the Guardian pod were talking about it as well.

This is brilliant lads. Mr Nice Guy, hats off! Doubling down :pac:

Shanotheslayer

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

PSG the best team in Europe despite always failing in the CL league.

That's a first.

Only seeing this now. Oh dear

magma69

Last year it was "Liverpool have the league wrapped up".

Once it became evident this year that Liverpool were actually going to win the league the narrative became "the quality of the league has dropped".

They'll do whatever they need to to cope. I'm just laughing at how pathetic it is. No point even addressing it. Leave them continue to embarrass themselves lol.

Martin Tyler AgueroooOO

Well to be fair to Mr Nice Guy I have noticed he seems to be able to watch every game across all leagues at the same time and if any poster here has the knowledge to know which is the best league and who is the best team it is someone who can watch every single game played.

Mr.Nice Guy

6 wrote: »

Only seeing this now. Oh dear

Not sure what you mean by this. Last season they topped probably the hardest group which contained Liverpool and Napoli. If you were asked last January to name the best team in Europe in that particular moment, they would have been a perfectly logical answer, as they are now.

Solsksaer has aged 20 years. He looked ill in that interview.

~Rebel~

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Not sure what you mean by this. Last season they topped probably the hardest group which contained Liverpool and Napoli. If you were asked last January to name the best team in Europe in that particular moment, they would have been a perfectly logical answer, as they are now.

I don’t even think PSG would claim PSG are the best team in Europe right now.

Jurgen The German

6 wrote: »

Solsksaer has aged 20 years. He looked ill in that interview.

I'm sure he knows he is circling the drain, or at least should be. Its unfortunate to see it play out like this for him but the blame sits solely with Woodward, he (Ole) should never have been put in this position in the first place.

LuckyLloyd

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Brave comment to make in January. We'll see how well it ages. .

Actually, it was merely a factual statement. As of today Liverpool *are* the European Champions and *are* completely crushing the league that produced the two finalists for the European Cup last May. Right now Liverpool are the best team in Europe and you know it: hence your continuing performance art in this thread trying to create alternate realities.

The power and the glory of this season speaks for itself.

j8wk2feszrnpao

So just topping your group, and winning an uncompetitive league, a league with just one European Cup win in its history (a dodgy win) that wasn’t even PSG, qualifies as the best team in Europe?
Thats some way to back yourself into a corner and look foolish.

giveitholly

I think Mr Nice Guy is Bangkoks alter ego,Just loves shifting the goal posts to suit his agenda

Oranage2

A decent liverpool side but a very poor league, reminiscent of Leicester a few seasons ago.

ricero

Oranage2 wrote: »

A decent liverpool side but a very poor league, reminiscent of Leicester a few seasons ago.

Decent lol

You lost your touch many moons ago.

Oranage2

ricero wrote: »

Decent lol

You lost your touch many moons ago.

Very good side, though world record fees on a keeper and defender so it's expected.

I don't really rate TAA, he's very average made better by stats and the midfield doing his defensive work. Other weaknesses in the team too but Salah and Mane cover over lots of cracks, pool also looking better with every big team in Europe going through a transition.

doc_17

So what’s the story with announcing OGS is being relieved of his role? They probably have to inform the stock exchange first? Has to be today. It’s clear as day what they need to do. I hope they don’t do it though. I’m sure Pochettino has been contacted by now.

Oranage2

doc_17 wrote: »

So what’s the story with announcing OGS is being relieved of his role? They probably have to inform the stock exchange first? Has to be today. It’s clear as day what they need to do. I hope they don’t do it though. I’m sure Pochettino has been contacted by now.

Ole has done worst this season and still has his job, also his current record isn't terrible. Looks like he'll be kept till the end of the season. Unless there's a top 4 clause that would make it easier to fire him.

8-10

Oranage2 wrote: »

Very good side, though world record fees on a keeper and defender so it's expected.

Chelsea and United hold those transfer records and both have conceded more than double the amount that Liverpool have.

Your argument is over simplistic. If you want to point to a single reason why Liverpool are the best team around right now there's one answer: Klopp

dzer2

Amazing turns up after a 2-2 draw.

Nearly the same as taking a bow in front of the Kop

j8wk2feszrnpao

Oranage2 wrote: »

Very good side, though world record fees on a keeper and defender so it's expected.

I don't really rate TAA, he's very average made better by stats and the midfield doing his defensive work. Other weaknesses in the team too but Salah and Mane cover over lots of cracks, pool also looking better with every big team in Europe going through a transition.

Thanks for the morning laugh
The delusional juice being drunk by too many people these days.

Akabusi

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Thanks for the morning laugh
The delusional juice being drunk by too many people these days.

This is the best part of it all. Its consoling for them to believe any bizare narrative that makes them feel better. Ole is like this too, show how in tune with the fanbase he is.

8-10

Should be a good game tonight. Wolves are a good side with some great attacking players and a good set of fullbacks. Liverpool have had their number since they came up other than a weakened FA Cup tie with 6 Premier League wins in a row against them back to 2011.

I expect a full side from Liverpool given the opportunity to rest players against Shrewsbury. Oxlade-Chamberlain, Lallana and Fabinho competing for the only place likely up for grabs in midfield. Could Minamino see his first PL minutes off the bench?

This is the first of 3 games for Liverpool before Man City kick off next against Spurs. Massive opportunity to extend the gap.

eigrod

Oranage2 wrote: »

Very good side, though world record fees on a keeper and defender so it's expected.

I don't really rate TAA, he's very average made better by stats and the midfield doing his defensive work. Other weaknesses in the team too but Salah and Mane cover over lots of cracks, pool also looking better with every big team in Europe going through a transition.

You are all over the place. You make an argument that Liverpool being a good side is expected because of world record fees for 2 players, yet in another post you say the league is weak, completely ignoring that Man City, Man Utd & Chelsea have spent ****loads on top players from around the World. Contradiction after contradiction.

Your point about TAA is ridiculous and you’re pretty much on your own with that pov.

TitianGerm

eigrod wrote: »

You are all over the place. You make an argument that Liverpool being a good side is expected because of world record fees for 2 players, yet in another post you say the league is weak, completely ignoring that Man City, Man Utd & Chelsea have spent ****loads on top players from around the World. Contradiction after contradiction.

Your point about TAA is ridiculous and you’re pretty much on your own with that pov.

Arsenal spent €80m on Pepe during the summer as well.

Peatys

Buying expensive players makes you good except when it doesn't.

Gotcha

Edit, can this be renamed the humour thread pt2? Fecking comedy gold.

yourdeadwright

Oranage2 wrote: »

Very good side, though world record fees on a keeper and defender so it's expected.

I don't really rate TAA, he's very average made better by stats and the midfield doing his defensive work. Other weaknesses in the team too but Salah and Mane cover over lots of cracks, pool also looking better with every big team in Europe going through a transition.

21 year old with 21 assist in 77 Prem appearances is a lot better than average

He's the main attacking starting point for current European and World champions and soon to be Prem champions , who also happen to have the best defence in England ,

oh ye and ..................He's a right back !!!!!!!!!!!

ArielAtom

I do love to read the rantings of the sky sports/PlayStation fans. Probably play 5 aside Astro and kick lumps out of the only footballer on view, have grown up supporting the team that was winning when they were kids and now want the heady days back only to see Liverpool actually performing. It must really grate on them. BTW before anyone jumps in, I’m not a Liverpool fan. But would love to see them do the league and champions league double, just to see the online meltdown.

MD1990

Liverpool have not scored many goals through transition this season.

Most teams play 5 at the back against us.

citytillidie

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Actually, it was merely a factual statement. As of today Liverpool *are* the European Champions and *are* completely crushing the league that produced the two finalists for the European Cup last May. Right now Liverpool are the best team in Europe and you know it: hence your continuing performance art in this thread trying to create alternate realities.

The power and the glory of this season speaks for itself.

Best in the World you mean, gold badge on top this weekend proves it :pac:

yourdeadwright

MD1990 wrote: »

Liverpool have not scored many goals through transition this season.

Most teams play 5 at the back against us.

As a fan I love this , if you recall near the start of the season Jose was on Sky can't recall the game but he said its know Liverpool struggle with a low block ,

Not anymore they have added another string to there bow ,

I reckon as the season goes on and teams start needing 3 points instead of being happy with draw or getting beat by respectful score lines they will come out and open up more and we will see a return in Liverpool killing teams in transition situations

BullBlackNova

ArielAtom wrote: »

I do love to read the rantings of the sky sports/PlayStation fans. Probably play 5 aside Astro and kick lumps out of the only footballer on view, have grown up supporting the team that was winning when they were kids and now want the heady days back only to see Liverpool actually performing. It must really grate on them. BTW before anyone jumps in, I’m not a Liverpool fan. But would love to see them do the league and champions league double, just to see the online meltdown.

This is a little harsh.

Would you not let us win the treble? I'd say the country would suddenly have a lot more rugby fans in it if that happened!!

Oranage2

ArielAtom wrote: »

I do love to read the rantings of the sky sports/PlayStation fans. Probably play 5 aside Astro and kick lumps out of the only footballer on view, have grown up supporting the team that was winning when they were kids and now want the heady days back only to see Liverpool actually performing. It must really grate on them. BTW before anyone jumps in, I’m not a Liverpool fan. But would love to see them do the league and champions league double, just to see the online meltdown.

Liverpool nearly won nothing last season, in my entire life this will be the first time liverpool will have won the league. They'll eventually go back to being terrible and their fans will crawl back to their holes talking about money ball and alternative tables.

TitianGerm

yourdeadwright wrote: »

21 year old with 21 assist in 77 Prem appearances is a lot better than average

He's the main attacking starting point for current European and World champions and soon to be Prem champions , who also happen to have the best defence in England ,

oh ye and ..................He's a right back !!!!!!!!!!!

You've to go back to 16/17 for Ozil to get 20 assists in the league. Which is the same season TAA broke into the Liverpool team playing 7 games that year.

Ozil stats.

19/20 - 14 games and 1 assist.
18/19 - 24 games and 2 assists.
17/18 - 26 games and 8 assists.
16/17 - 33 games and 9 assists.

Total games 97. Total assists 20.

DrumSteve

Oranage2 wrote: »

Liverpool nearly won nothing last season, in my entire life this will be the first time liverpool will have won the league. They'll eventually go back to being terrible and their fans will crawl back to their holes talking about money ball and alternative tables.

8-10

Oranage2 wrote: »

Liverpool nearly won nothing last season

It's such a great time to be alive. It won't last forever just enjoy the ride.

Hammer Archer

I'm no fan of Liverpool but it's genuinely cringey that some opposition fans have to invent these coping mechanisms in response to Liverpool inevitably winning the league.

Fitz*

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

What years specifically are you thinking of when you refer to a closed top 4 and poor players and management below because I don't recognise this description. And you're referencing United and Arsenal when you talk up the quality of their European showings. I watched their Europa campaigns and they were dismal. Spurs were walloped by a Bayern team that later sacked their coach. Chelsea weren't impressive either and scraped through. Wolves are still miles away from the likes of Liverpool and Man City.

Have a look at the Premier League from 2004-2010.

2004/2005:
Top 4: Chelsea ,Arsenal Man United, Everton.
5th were 3 points off

2005/2006:
Top 4: Chelsea, Man United, Liverpool, Arsenal.
5th were 2 points off

2006/2007:
Top 4: Man United, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal.
5th were 8 points off

2007/2008:
Top 4: Man United, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool.
5th were 9 points off

2008/2009:
Top 4: Man United, Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal.
5th were 9 points off

2009/2010:
Top 4: Chelsea Man United, Arsenal, Spurs
5th were 3 points off


Notice that there is a real trend here in the middle of those 5 seasons. a Big 4 dominance in terms of the top spots in the league, with a big gap to the rest of the 16 other teams in the league. There were only 2 different winners over the course of 7 seasons. The top 4 spots were the same 4 teams for 4 seasons in a row. 3 teams had the same spots for 7+ seasons. The losses to the bottom teams outside the top 4 teams were relative shocks, and rare. The bottom teams were getting some big losses to the top teams, not getting close to them and finishing on some very low scores. Sunderland got 15, Derby County got 11, Portsmouth got 19. This season Norwich have already eclipsed 2 of those scores, and still have 14 games to play.

This is the period of time that the PL is perceived to be at it's strongest because it was 4 teams who were doing well in Europe and they were always at the top end of the table. Is this not the exact definition of uncompetitive? That the 4 same teams were easily making the same 4 spots were just letting the other teams just fall behind without getting close to them?

Surely because the smaller teams in the league are now able to beat the top teams, that actually means that it is more competitive as that massive gap from bottom to top is not there, save for 2 teams.

The top 4 is not a closed shop anymore. There is at least 1 different team in the top 4 every season, if not 2 these seasons. There could be 2 new teams again this season from last. As Shano pointed out, an uncompetitive title race does not mean an uncompetitive league.