General Premier League Thread 2019-20

eagle eye

6 wrote:

Not disputing it was a fantastic domestic achievement,but their failure in Europe seperates them from the truly great teams over the years.

I'm not comparing sides. An unbeaten season in the Premier league, to this point, is a unique achievement.
It doesn't matter how good they were outside of the Premier league.
I hope Liverpool do it this season and they can do it all too, unbeaten season, most points in a season and can still win the Champion's league too.

Liam O

6 wrote: »

Not disputing it was a fantastic domestic achievement,but their failure in Europe seperates them from the truly great teams over the years.

So if Liverpool had gotten beaten by Spurs/Dembele scores the gimme goal at the end of the Nou Camp game last year then they wouldn't be a great team. Is that the line?

8-10

Liam O wrote: »

So if Liverpool had gotten beaten by Spurs/Dembele scores the gimme goal at the end of the Nou Camp game last year then they wouldn't be a great team. Is that the line?

Yeah that argument would be a lot harder had Liverpool not won the CL. Remember that would have meant 3 trophies not lifted since May had that happened. This Liverpool team are only great because they're winning trophies. The records are part of it, but on their own not enough.

Just a small correction though, had Dembele scored at the end of the Nou Camp game we would have just won 5-0 at Anfield. That night was special, we weren't going out.

eagle eye

eagle eye wrote: »

I'm not comparing sides. An unbeaten season in the Premier league, to this point, is a unique achievement.
It doesn't matter how good they were outside of the Premier league.
I hope Liverpool do it this season and they can do it all too, unbeaten season, most points in a season and can still win the Champion's league too.

Id take another champions league and lose 7 in the league. Unbeaten would be a nice little bonus, but if it's not achieved I won't be too upset. If Liverpool get past athletico I'd happily rest the first 11 in the league games.

Liam O

Liam O wrote: »

So if Liverpool had gotten beaten by Spurs/Dembele scores the gimme goal at the end of the Nou Camp game last year then they wouldn't be a great team. Is that the line?

The winning multiple major trophies to be a great team line? Hardly reinventing the wheel with that one.

8-10

6 wrote: »

Id take another champions league and lose 7 in the league. Unbeaten would be a nice little bonus, but if it's not achieved I won't be too upset. If Liverpool get past athletico I'd happily rest the first 11 in the league games.

Fully agree. I desperately want to win the Champions League this season. I'm not going to say I want it more than the PL, but nearly as much. For the PL it's been so long I don't care if we lose all 11 and win with 79pts, as long as we win it. But the Champions League is the top competition and I think we could give anyone in Europe a game.

KaiserGunner

6 wrote: »

The winning multiple major trophies to be a great team line? Hardly reinventing the wheel with that one.

Which are the multiple major trophies? Champions league and.....? Super cup and world club cup are hardly major trophies. May as well include community shields in that case so.

j8wk2feszrnpao

6 wrote: »

The winning multiple major trophies to be a great team line? Hardly reinventing the wheel with that one.

Exactly. It's not just getting to a CL final, they backed it up with getting to another CL final and a 97pt season. They won that 2nd CL final, won the UEFA Super Cup, won the World Club Cup. They've ran away with the league title this year, and could set a number of records that may last a very long time. And still in the hunt for the FA Cup and CL this season.

KaiserGunner

KaiserGunner wrote: »

Which are the multiple major trophies? Champions league and.....? Super cup and world club cup are hardly major trophies. May as well include community shields in that case so.

Arsenal never won a champions league

citytillidie

6 wrote: »

Arsenal never won a champions league

or the Super Cup :pac:

j8wk2feszrnpao

KaiserGunner wrote: »

Which are the multiple major trophies? Champions league and.....? Super cup and world club cup are hardly major trophies. May as well include community shields in that case so.

The Super Cup and World Club Cup are UEFA/FIFA recognized games, as they follow the standard rules. The Community Shield isn't, no extra time, extra subs....

They are major trophies, as you have to win the UEFA/CL Cup to play in one, and the CL to play in the other.

citytillidie

citytillidie wrote: »

or the Super Cup :pac:

Yep, and counting it and the world clubs as major trophies :rolleyes:

League and CL are the main ones and always will be.

KaiserGunner

6 wrote: »

Arsenal never won a champions league

Where did I say they did?

KaiserGunner

KaiserGunner wrote: »

Where did I say they did?

j8wk2feszrnpao

Liam O wrote: »

So if Liverpool had gotten beaten by Spurs/Dembele scores the gimme goal at the end of the Nou Camp game last year then they wouldn't be a great team. Is that the line?

They weren't beaten by Spurs.
If you want to count Dembele's chance, they why not the multiple chances Liverpool had to come away with 2 away goals? Then Liverpool aren't pressing forward, and Dembele doesn't get those opportunities.

They beat Barcelona over two legs, and then beat Spurs, winning the CL. You have to win to be a great team. That's what they are doing.

The_Kew_Tour

That 1998 Arsenal side and from 2002 to 2006 was a very good Arsenal side. I hated playing them as they were never easy game.

You get used to it though. I remember when United won European Cup in 1999 it wasn't a proper win as we had not won league season before and we only only best Brondby. Funny it all changed since.

Liam O

8-10 wrote: »

Yeah that argument would be a lot harder had Liverpool not won the CL. Remember that would have meant 3 trophies not lifted since May had that happened. This Liverpool team are only great because they're winning trophies. The records are part of it, but on their own not enough.

Just a small correction though, had Dembele scored at the end of the Nou Camp game we would have just won 5-0 at Anfield. That night was special, we weren't going out.

The super cup and club world cup are literal nothing trophies. I've barely heard any team who's won them the last decade reference them, bar one that is.

The arrogance of the 2nd paragraph is too much, sorry.

The United team of 99 went and did it all. Chalk and cheese compared to that Arsenal team who choked in Europe for whatever reason.

Liam O

munstermagic11 wrote: »

They weren't beaten by Spurs.
If you want to count Dembele's chance, they why not the multiple chances Liverpool had to come away with 2 away goals? Then Liverpool aren't pressing forward, and Dembele doesn't get those opportunities.

They beat Barcelona over two legs, and then beat Spurs, winning the CL. You have to win to be a great team. That's what they are doing.

The word if was used. They got away with it somewhat against Barca in the first leg at the end but the history books won't remember that and it was a great achievement. Does losing 1 game decide whether a team is great or not?

Are you the best team in Europe if you don't win your league the same season? These are things I've wondered since teams finishing 5th in their league started calling themselves the best team in Europe.

Harry Palmr

Feck it Liverpool are the best team in the world May 2019 - May 2020.

8-10

Liam O wrote: »

I've barely heard any team who's won them the last decade reference them, bar one that is.

Flamengo still sing about their win in the 1980's even today. It's a bigger deal in South America, definitely not just referenced by one club.

As for the arrogance, it's just based on my experience of what I witnessed that night. Liverpool went 4-0 up with over 10mins to go. I'm confident that if we needed a 5th we would have gotten it. We didn't push for a 5th because we didn't need it. Barcelona collapsed and Liverpool had the momentum.

8-10

8-10 wrote: »

Flamengo still sing about their win in the 1980's even today. It's a bigger deal in South America, definitely not just referenced by one club.

As for the arrogance, it's just based on my experience of what I witnessed that night. Liverpool went 4-0 up with over 10mins to go. I'm confident that if we needed a 5th we would have gotten it. We didn't push for a 5th because we didn't need it. Barcelona collapsed and Liverpool had the momentum.

Not arrogant, just better?

citytillidie

6 wrote: »

Not arrogant, just better?

*Looks for a certain gif

8-10

6 wrote: »

Not arrogant, just better?

I guess my point is that I'm not saying we would have just gone and beaten them 5-0 just because of an arrogant view simply that we're Liverpool and we're totally awesome etc, I'm saying that we would have won 5-0 because of the momentum we had in that specific game and the fact we had over 10mins left after being 4-0 up.

I'm saying if we needed a 5th, that night, with 11mins + injury time to go, we would have pushed on and scored one.

Barca were well beaten and the Kop would have sucked one in given how incredible the atmosphere was that night. One of the best ever probably.

Fitz*

Liam O wrote: »

The super cup and club world cup are literal nothing trophies. I've barely heard any team who's won them the last decade reference them, bar one that is.

To be fair, Liverpool are the first English team to win it the Club World Cup for 11 years and the first to win the Super Cup for 15 years, so it's probably why you don't hear much of it. Do Real Madrid, Barca or Bayern Munich fans reference it, in addition to other trophies won in the same era? Probably.

If you are to claim wins such as the Club World Cup or Super Cup in isolation, then yes I would say it's nothing major. It's like saying a single League Cup in a 4 year period. But when you add the very best trophies like the PL title, CL win, and other trophies alongside a Club World Cup in a given era of a couple of years, it deserves merit as you can truly say that you are the best team in the world in that era.

These top clubs generally put out strong teams for these tournaments too and take them seriously. Maybe the gammon-head pundits who keep saying that 'it's a nothing trophy and the League Cup is more important because it's English' and cos Brexit has been said too much.

Do Real Madrid deserve to be called the best team in the world around 2016, 2017 etc or Barcelona around 2009 to 2011. Of course they do. And I'm sure that they celebrate that win too, to back up the other trophies they won in the meantime.

brinty

The_Kew_Tour wrote:

You get used to it though. I remember when United won European Cup in 1999 it wasn't a proper win as we had not won league season before and we only only best Brondby. Funny it all changed since.

Least we didn't lose any games when we did win the European cup in 1999

dundalkfc10

8-10 wrote: »

I guess my point is that I'm not saying we would have just gone and beaten them 5-0 just because of an arrogant view simply that we're Liverpool and we're totally awesome etc, I'm saying that we would have won 5-0 because of the momentum we had in that specific game and the fact we had over 10mins left after being 4-0 up.

I'm saying if we needed a 5th, that night, with 11mins + injury time to go, we would have pushed on and scored one.

Barca were well beaten and the Kop would have sucked one in given how incredible the atmosphere was that night. One of the best ever probably.

One of the best ever in England. Def nowhere near one of the best in the world

yourdeadwright

Liam O wrote: »

The word if was used. They got away with it somewhat against Barca in the first leg at the end but the history books won't remember that and it was a great achievement. Does losing 1 game decide whether a team is great or not?

Are you the best team in Europe if you don't win your league the same season? These are things I've wondered since teams finishing 5th in their league started calling themselves the best team in Europe.

Don't forget Salah missed a sitter that night in Spain hit the bar from about 5 yards ,

yourdeadwright

Liam O wrote: »

The super cup and club world cup are literal nothing trophies. I've barely heard any team who's won them the last decade reference them, bar one that is.

The arrogance of the 2nd paragraph is too much, sorry.

Honest question have you ever seen a poor team win the Super cup or the World Club Cup ?

yourdeadwright

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

One of the best ever in England. Def nowhere near one of the best in the world

Up there with the best of fans in civilised football stadium's

Unfair to compare fans of English clubs to fans in lets say Brazil ,

You'd be arrested and banned for life if you went on like that lot,

Some countries still allow fans to act like its the 70's and 80's which is not goods ,

x43r0

brinty wrote: »

Least we didn't lose any games when we did win the European cup in 1999

Who won the league that year?

Shanotheslayer

Highlight of the thread is Arsenal fans trying to get in on the debate because of being Invincible.

Nowhere near the United/Liverpool/City teams.

Invincible title is cool, but you're a fool if you'd rather be Invincible than have a CL.

Liam O

x43r0 wrote: »

Who won the league that year?

Man United I believe it was. Google is there if you want to read about it more.

j8wk2feszrnpao

Liam O wrote: »

The super cup and club world cup are literal nothing trophies. I've barely heard any team who's won them the last decade reference them, bar one that is.

Well, that isn't the criteria for a major trophy

UEFA Super Cup (Liverpool got €4.5m and Chelsea got €3.5m for the one off game) is a major trophy on the continent, and the World Club Cup (still a relatively new comp) is huge in South America and like the Super Cup they both get big viewing numbers (hence ~€30m in prize money, with Liverpool getting over €5m).

They are officially licensed games, not like the Community Shield. There's that sentiment in the UK towards these games, but it's not generally the case elsewhere. The UK still tries to convince itself that the FA Cup is a huge prize, but nobody is coming to the PL for that reason. Even many of the Championship and League 1/2 teams put out weakens sides.

I'd take either Super Cup or Wold Club Cup over the league cup easily. Have a bit of sentiment towards the FA Cup, but in terms of Global prestige, it's not was it was (or what it was sold as).

Iused2likebusts

The super cup is a nothing trophy for me. Liverpool had already proved they were the best team in europe they didnt need to beat the europa league winners to prove that again. Club world cup is different you need to win the CL to get into it and then beat teams from other continents to win it. Definetly a trophy to be celebrated.

8-10

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

One of the best ever in England. Def nowhere near one of the best in the world

Nice strawman. I meant specifically at Anfield

The debate afterwards was comparing it to St. Etienne, Inter Milan, Chelsea and Newcastle 1996

It's up there with all of them and probably only Chelsea 2005 beats it

No interest in the rest of the world or even rest of England!

inforfun

Winning it with the old fashioned home and away match against the South Americans was more glorious than having a little tournamnet in the desert, in my opinion.

x43r0

Liam O wrote: »

Man United I believe it was. Google is there if you want to read about it more.

Cheers, must have slipped my mind

Some form of list would have been handy for reference

ERG89

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

The super cup is a nothing trophy for me. Liverpool had already proved they were the best team in europe they didnt need to beat the europa league winners to prove that again. Club world cup is different you need to win the CL to get into it and then beat teams from other continents to win it. Definetly a trophy to be celebrated.

I feel they are on about the same level as domestic cups now. If you win them it's a nice bonus after getting there but winning only them doesn't make a poor season into a good season. It also doesn't mean your going in an upward trajectory as a club either.
The league cup final is on this weekend and is anybody anticipating it?
Villa fans are apprehensive about it after the last game with City & it's not even the most important game this week for City.

KaiserGunner

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

Highlight of the thread is Arsenal fans trying to get in on the debate because of being Invincible.

Nowhere near the United/Liverpool/City teams.

Invincible title is cool, but you're a fool if you'd rather be Invincible than have a CL.

I must have missed the year Man City won the Champions league.

Martin Tyler AgueroooOO

The one thing I have taken from this thread over the last week or two is that binty is taking Liverpool success this season very badly.

Shanotheslayer

KaiserGunner wrote: »

I must have missed the year Man City won the Champions league.

I was more referring to the teams and using the CL as an example. I also didn't state that you had to win the CL to be a great team

I stated that nobody wants an Invincible rather than a CL.

If you want to take Arsenal and City as separate as neither won the CL team. They still smash that Arsenal team

KaiserGunner

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

I was more referring to the teams and using the CL as an example.

If you want to take Arsenal and City as separate as neither won the CL team. They still smash that Arsenal team

Your post makes no sense then, when ya referred to the CL and Man City. And that Arsenal team most definitely wouldn’t be smashed by anyone. Foolish claim.

8-10

KaiserGunner wrote: »

And that Arsenal team most definitely wouldn’t be smashed by anyone. Foolish claim.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/champions_league/3110724.stm

They lost 3-0 at home to Inter after resting players in the league in preparation for the game

KaiserGunner

8-10 wrote: »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/champions_league/3110724.stm

They lost 3-0 at home to Inter after resting players in the league in preparation for the game

Yeah and then smashed them 5-1 away at the San Siro. The great Liverpool side got beaten 3-0 by Barcelona in a match last season. Anyone can have a bad day. My point being that that Arsenal side are definitely up there with the Man City side of the past few seasons.

And no I can’t prove, but then no one else can either. This greatest team of all time stuff is really tedious now at this stage. Just getting my two cents in, as all I’ve been reading the past few weeks on this thread, is that Arsenal invincibles team being downplayed and made out to be some average side and essentially demeaning the achievement.

8-10

KaiserGunner wrote: »

Yeah and then smashed them 5-1 away at the San Siro. The great Liverpool side got beaten 3-0 by Barcelona in a match last season. Anyone can have a bad day. My point being that that Arsenal side are definitely up there with the Man City side of the past few seasons.

No, your point was it's foolish to claim that Arsenal team could have been smashed by anyone.

It's not a foolish claim. It happened. Other results that season doesn't change that.

I'm not saying anything about them being a great team or not, or about their ranking alongside City or Liverpool. Just saying that the foolish claim is saying a team that lost 3-0 (and were lucky it wasn't more) at home "most definitely wouldn’t be smashed by anyone."

Nobody said the invincible side was average, absolutely nobody. They were a brilliant team, and that season was superb. They were also failures in Europe and not on a par with the great teams who did it both domestically and in Europe.

Pretty sure none of the that isn't correct.

gimli2112

Kaiser your posts are making sense, your mistake is engaging in an argument online.
Not winning a cup competition does not dilute that Arsenal team's achievements

Potential Underachiever

Said it before but the invincible season was an amazing achievement and would definitely have Arsenal involved in the greatest PL team debate, whether they won the CL is irrelevant in that particular debate.

Of course that Arsenal team would be one of the best PL teams. Doubt anybody would argue any different in that debate.