RIC and DMP to be commemorated this month

fundi

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Where can one find these accounts?so far you have refused to say.

There are plenty of accounts of Irish peoples experiences in the British forces in WW2. Read for example A doctors sword, an account of Aidan McCarthy from west Cork who served in the b.a. after leaving ucc.

jimgoose

Zebra3 wrote: »

I can't say if these signs existed in England in the 80s, wouldn't be too hard to believe given how openly racist British society was at the time, but I can tell you there were signs like that at British bars in Spanish resorts in the 1990s.

Seriously?? And then they wonder why they tend to be disliked on the Continent... :pac::pac::pac:

FrancieBrady

jimgoose wrote: »

John Gibney of TCD (yes, I know!) would appear to agree with her, and it's not the first time I've heard it:

https://www.independent.ie/incoming/just-why-was-the-easter-rising-so-unpopular-34563527.html

I have no doubt that opinion exists. But as I pointed out to fundl, as Lee and Ferriter would caution, that opinion is often taken from the only sources/data available, the pages of a vociferously anti-Rising media.

Fundl countered this point by claiming she had family who said it as well.

*and yes...the 'Glasnevin Trust' wasn't lost on me.

fundi

jimgoose wrote: »

Seriously?:

Naw, he is joking

Plumbthedepths

fundi wrote: »

Naw, he is joking

Is everything you disagree with a lie or a joke?

fundi

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Is everything you disagree with a lie or a joke?

Far from it. I know and accept there was a sign in a window in London in the 50's. If an individual landlady did not want blacks or dogs or Irish, I would disagree with her but I would not say it was a lie or a joke.

Plumbthedepths

fundi wrote: »

Far from it. I know and accept there was a sign in a window in London in the 50's. If an individual landlady did not want blacks or dogs or Irish, I would disagree with her but I would not say it was a lie or a joke.

There was more than one sign and it didn't stop in the fifties. Here's some accounts of how the Irish were during and after the war in the UK.

https://www.ourmigrationstory.org.uk/oms/irish-nurses-in-wartime-britain-mary-mulrys-diary

FrancieBrady

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

There was more than one sign and it didn't stop in the fifties. Here's some accounts of how the Irish were during and after the war in the UK.

https://www.ourmigrationstory.org.uk/oms/irish-nurses-in-wartime-britain-mary-mulrys-diary

There are countless studies and research on anti-Irish and anti 'other groups discrimination' and prejudice in the UK, it is just Holocaust denial levels of insult to deny it existed and still exists.
Bizarre stuff again.

Plumbthedepths

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There are countless studies and research on anti-Irish and anti 'other groups discrimination' and prejudice in the UK, it is just Holocaust denial levels of insult to deny it existed and still exists.
Bizarre stuff again.

Tbh I don't think Fundi even knows what they are arguing about any longer.

lawred2

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Tbh I don't think Fundi even knows what they are arguing about any longer.

isn't that the point of a WUM?

fundi

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There are countless studies and research on anti-Irish and anti 'other groups discrimination' and prejudice in the UK, it is just Holocaust denial levels of insult to deny it existed and still exists.
.

There are racist and far right and other elements in every society in the world, inc in the UK, nobody denies that. You are talking about 67 million people or thereabouts in the case of the UK. What do you expect? Not everyone in this country behaves or has behaved impeccably either.

FrancieBrady

fundi wrote: »

There are racist and far right and other elements in every society in the world, inc in the UK, nobody denies that. You are talking about 67 million people or thereabouts in the case of the UK. What do you expect? Not everyone in this country behaves or has behaved impeccably either.

Finally, an admission, and no handwaving it away. Anti Irish discrimination and bias exists in the UK.

fundi

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Finally, an admission, and no handwaving it away. Anti Irish discrimination and bias exists in the UK.

In a flat in a terraced house in Kilburn your cousin told you about.

FrancieBrady

fundi wrote: »

In a flat in a terraced house in Kilburn your cousin told you about.

Tis you who depends on family reminiscenes for your knowledge.

For the record I never mentioned either a 'cousin' or 'Kilburn'. Another lie.

Plumbthedepths

fundi wrote: »

In a flat in a terraced house in Kilburn your cousin told you about.

Nope there are many peer reviewed reports available for you to read if you wish to search for them.
Anyway do you know why you are still here arguing. There will be no state comemoration for the RIC/DMP/ Black and Tans, there is no public appetite for it as Leo and Charlie found out. Now again what are you arguing for?

fundi

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Tis you who depends on family reminiscenes for your knowledge.

.

Actually if you look back to the previous page I referenced the name of a book and its author.

FrancieBrady

fundi wrote: »

Actually if you look back to the previous page I referenced the name of a book and its author.

In both instances,

The level of support for the rising
and
Irish experiences as members of the British Army, you have used family anecdotes.

J Mysterio

jimgoose wrote: »

John Gibney of TCD (yes, I know!) would appear to agree with her, and it's not the first time I've heard it:

https://www.independent.ie/incoming/just-why-was-the-easter-rising-so-unpopular-34563527.html

There is some anecdotal evidence for this, but it is also focusing on Dublin, which was quite different to the rest of the country.

fundi

FrancieBrady wrote: »

In both instances,

The level of support for the rising
and
Irish experiences as members of the British Army, you have used family anecdotes.

As well as reports in the media at the time, and hard copy books of peoples experiences.

FrancieBrady

fundi wrote: »

As well as reports in the media at the time, and hard copy books of peoples experiences.

Trusting the 'media of the time' is akin to trusting the Daily Mail to tell the truth today.

The 'media' of the time had a very set agenda, which was pro the Union and anti-the Rising.

And seriously, with all the coverage during the centenary, there is no accounts online? How very convenient.

A disproportionate amount of Irish men were shot by the British, they constituted 2% of the Army but accounted for 8% of those shot.
If they were shooting them indiscriminately, it is safe to say they were being treated harshly in other ways too.

TWENTY-SIX Irish soldiers shot at dawn for military offences during the First World War were formally pardoned by the British Government yesterday.

Ninety years after they were executed by firing squad for "cowardice and desertion", legislation has been enacted to clear their names.

The move comes after the Irish Shot At Dawn Campaign tried for years to prove the volunteers - many in their teens - should never have been killed.

Foreign Minister Dermot Ahern said the pardons showed the men met a fate they did not deserve.

He added: "The legislation recognises execution was not a fate these men deserved. This will be formally recorded in their files."

All soldiers executed for military offences while serving with the British army will be pardoned.

Speaking in London, Mr Ahern said: "The [Irish] Government gave its support to the Irish Shot At Dawn Campaign in the hope that a retrospective pardon would bring comfort to their families.

"Our support was also given in recognition of the wider experience and sacrifice of the people of Ireland during the First World War."

The names of the 26 executed soldiers will be added to the Irish National War Memorial Records.

In October 2004, the Government submitted a report to the British detailing the background to each battlefield execution.

It claimed that one Irishman was shot for being absent from his post for 45 minutes and another executed as an "example".

The report also alleged a disparity in the treatment of Irish soldiers and claimed the Courts Martial system was fundamentally flawed.

https://www.thefreelibrary.com/PARDONED;%2026%20Irish%20WWI%20soldiers%20shot%20at%20dawn%20finally%20get%20justice.-a0154113694

jimgoose

J Mysterio wrote: »

There is some anecdotal evidence for this, but it is also focusing on Dublin, which was quite different to the rest of the country.

Mmm. You had more anti-Rising sentiment in cities generally, including Cork with it's well-to-do Catholic merchant class, for example.

fundi

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Trusting the 'media of the time' is akin to trusting the Daily Mail to tell the truth today.

The 'media' of the time had a very set agenda, which was pro the Union and anti-the Rising.

And seriously, with all the coverage during the centenary, there is no accounts online? How very convenient.

A disproportionate amount of Irish men were shot by the British, they constituted 2% of the Army but accounted for 8% of those shot.
If they were shooting them indiscriminately, it is safe to say they were being treated harshly in other ways too.
https://www.thefreelibrary.com/PARDONED;%2026%20Irish%20WWI%20soldiers%20shot%20at%20dawn%20finally%20get%20justice.-a0154113694

Your link contains someone from the "Canadian infantry", was that British army too? In any case, 26 people out of hundreds of thousands is a very small sample size. The vast vast majority of those who served done so bravely.

Edgware

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

I already told you I didn't have a photo but I qualified my comment by saying my claim is as valid as any you have made. No idea on the rest of the UK could have been every other pub or none, just relying my friends experience in Kilburn.

Was he a pisshead also?

Plumbthedepths

fundi wrote: »

Your link contains someone from the "Canadian infantry", was that British army too? In any case, 26 people out of hundreds of thousands is a very small sample size. The vast vast majority of those who served done so bravely.

What has bravery got to do with being treated badly, are you suggesting the Irish soldiers who were executed were cowards?
Again since there will be no comemoration what are you arguing about?

Plumbthedepths

Edgware wrote: »

Was he a pisshead also?

Also? What do you mean?

FrancieBrady

fundi wrote: »

Your link contains someone from the "Canadian infantry", was that British army too? In any case, 26 people out of hundreds of thousands is a very small sample size. The vast vast majority of those who served done so bravely.

I have no doubt they were 'brave'. But that was not what you were arguing.

fundl wrote:

Read any account of experiences of the 100,000 or so Irish people who volunteered to help the British war effort in WW2. None complained they were used as "cannon fodder" or were treated unfairly.

Can you agree now that at least 26 might have reason to complain they were treated 'unfairly'?

marieholmfan

Edgware wrote: »

Was he a pisshead also?

Edgware ; which of these played the most important role in the collapse of Sunningdale:
Loyalist paramilitarism,
Political republicanism,
Republican paramilitarism,
Unionist civil disobedience

James Brown

I wonder what Megan Markle might say?

Black Britons Wonder What Took Harry and Meghan so Long
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/10/world/europe/harry-meghan-markle-racism.html

Questions of racism linger as Harry, Meghan step back
https://apnews.com/1420bd1ff04ac8f330bdd9cf9d061e52

fundi

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Can you agree now that at least 26 might have reason to complain they were treated 'unfairly'?

In ww1 the penalty for desertion was execution: Britain did not abolish the death penalty for desertion until 1930, as far as I remember. Of the 210,000 Irishmen who served in the B.A. in WW1 only 25 were executed (and 1 Irishman in the Canadian army). What fraction of percent is that? 1/8400.
According to reports, most of those executed had histories of poor discipline or in the case of desertion, were repeat offenders.
It was the same rule for everyone in the army. The reason you do not hear stories of complaint from the 100,000 Irishmen who served in the forces in WW2 was because everyone was treated equally then too.

FrancieBrady

fundi wrote: »

In ww1 the penalty for desertion was execution: Britain did not abolish the death penalty for desertion until 1930, as far as I remember. Of the 210,000 Irishmen who served in the B.A. in WW1 only 25 were executed (and 1 Irishman in the Canadian army). What fraction of percent is that? 1/8400.
According to reports, most of those executed had histories of poor discipline or in the case of desertion, were repeat offenders.
It was the same rule for everyone in the army. The reason you do not hear stories of complain from the 100,000 Irishmen who served in the forces in WW2 was because everyone was treated equally then too.

The numbers game again. Quelle surprise.

Your pathological defence of the 'realm' is hilarious and pathetic most times. But sometimes it is disrespectful and downright sinister.