RIC and DMP to be commemorated this month

weldoninhio

cryptocurrency wrote: »

They were people doing jobs in the society in which they lived for the establishment they lived under all their lives.

I know plenty of lads who were in the Army and went to Iraq, Afganistan, Bosnia and some to northern Ireland. They knew nothing of the politics or the history and just did a job.

I can tell you the average infantry from Newcastle, Cardiff or Stoke didn't have the first idea about any of these places including the north.

Ignorance is no excuse for what soldiers get up to on tour.

the_syco

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

How do you stand on the anti-treaty or pro-treaty forces? It's easy for us all to be united against the RIC, it's going to be a lot more awkward by the time 2022 comes around!

I'm sure we'll all be called Black and Tan lovers then

cryptocurrency

We are talking about the RIC and not the black and tans

KWAG2019

weldoninhio wrote: »

Ignorance is no excuse for what soldiers get up to on tour.

The “job” being colonial repression, informing on your neighbour, evicting people from Irish land, killing people fighting for Independence. That’s the job.

Fann Linn

cryptocurrency wrote: »

We are talking about the RIC and not the black and tans

The Tans worked well with their RIC buddies.
Both the same as each other.

buried

the_syco wrote: »

I'm sure we'll all be called Black and Tan lovers then

You may even get to see a nice bronze statue commissioned outside John Bruton's mansion of a nice black & tan auxie armoured car with two innocent women tied to ropes at the back of it dragged along the road at speed. Sure wasn't it the reality and the poor lads were doing their jobs god love them.

McMurphy

KWAG2019 wrote: »

Never underestimate the liking of the northern unionist for money. You only have to look at cash for ash and Sri Lanka! The Brethren like filthy lucre.

Good living for a living.

cryptocurrency

Fann Linn wrote: »

The Tans worked well with their RIC buddies.
Both the same as each other.

you are beyond help. Good luck.

KWAG2019

Great thread to flush them out for the ignore list.

Fann Linn

cryptocurrency wrote: »

you are beyond help. Good luck.

I s'pose you think the RIC was just checking motor tax and not getting involved in murder, rape, collaboration and arson.
Dream on Charlie.

Beeping Kitchen Appliances

cryptocurrency wrote: »

We are talking about the RIC and not the black and tans

All these elements worked together and were integrated.
That's why for example Sergeant Jerry Mannix of the DMP was able to provide IRA with the names and addresses of the 'Cairo' gang. Which was a black ops outfit put in place by Special Branch and British Army Intelligence to conduct clandestine operations against IRA. That group was instituted after republicans had destroyed 'G' Division of DMP which had previously fulfilled this function.

Junkyard Tom

Sean.3516 wrote: »

a mature view of history

KWAG2019 wrote: »

FGers claiming to have a mature view of history

What they mean is their version of history is a 'mature view' and anyone else's is immature, and those with the 'immature view' need to come around to their way of thinking.

It's basically, 'you're an idiot'.

This is Irish Tory-ism.

combat14

FG mustn't need votes in Balbriggan next election?

Kermit.de.frog

Fann Linn wrote: »

I s'pose you think the RIC was just checking motor tax and not getting involved in murder, rape, collaboration and arson.
Dream on Charlie.

Vast majority of RIC/DMP were just police officers doing the job of a police officer at a dangerous time.

You are referring to a tiny minority.

buried

It's as if Fine Gael are trying to shoot themselves in the face for the next election. Not surprising really, I doubt the likes of Charlie will run for another election, his wheels are well greased. Leo is probably eagerly awaiting his upcoming next gig either in Europe or on the after dinner/sherry speech circuit, so he probably is hoping he won't be the next Taoiseach anyways. Will be interesting to hear what Coveney thinks of all this.

Sean.3516

Zebra3 wrote: »

Easy to say when it wasn't you faced with being sent to the western front to fight for the nation occupying your country and one which occupied huge tracts of the globe with its' racist policies.

Yes it is easy for me to say. I accept that.

I’m simply making a judgement as to what the best way was to achieve the aims of Irish Nationalism given the situation in 1914.

What’s your point?

You’re doing the exact same thing when you have the idealistic “Republic or Nothing!” attitude when it’s when now 100 years after the fact and we now have a Republic.

Most Irish people weren’t in even in favour of a Republic in 1914-16, not if it meant fighting a rebellion anyway. I mean the people of Dublin threw fruit at the Irish Volunteers as they were being marched to Kilmainham!

What makes you think that those people were just as gung ho as you would have been (you having the benefit of hindsight and they don’t) about republican ideals?

Yes, it’s very easy for BOTH of us to say what we would have done or would have believed in 1914.

At least I’m acknowledging it.

(Side note, we weren’t “occupied” by Great Britain in 1914. Ireland was an integrated part of Great Britain.)

Zebra3 wrote: »

How nice of the Brits.

We offer you part of your own land.

Imagine somebody stole your home and offered you half of it back.

Well, Jewish immigrants to Palestine during this time didn’t steal the land or colonise it. They bought it. Largely with money donated by Jewish philanthropists in Europe. They bought it from local Arabs a lot of whom were absentee landlords. The Ottoman Empire (who owned Palestine at the time) allowed it.The brits didn’t become involved until after WWI at which point a two-state solution was the best remedy as opposed to deporting Jews who’d been living there for decades now.

Fann Linn

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Vast majority of RIC/DMP were just police officers doing the job of a police officer at a dangerous time.

You are referring to a tiny minority.

Plenty of monuments here around north Roscommon/ Leitrim were Irish men were murdered by Tans supported by local RIC.
Bergin, Mc Dermott, Glavey, Selton Hill ambush.

McMurphy

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Vast majority of RIC/DMP were just police officers doing the job of a police officer at a dangerous time.

You are referring to a tiny minority.

Warning, the photos not pleasant to look at.

26 November 1920: the RIC abduct brothers Patrick (29) & Harry (22) Loughnane from their farm at Shanaglish, Galway.

They tortured them, beat them, chop off some of their fingers & shoot them. Their bodies are then set on fire & grenades detonated in their mouths #BlackandTans https://t.co/MoMxvZ9mRJ

https://twitter.com/MarkMDub/status/1214331574860341249?s=19

tupenny

Fann Linn wrote: »

Plenty of monuments here around north Roscommon/ Leitrim were Irish men were murdered by Tans supported by local RIC.
Bergin, Mc Dermott, Glavey, Selton Hill ambush.

Same area as where my gran hid terrified

droidman123

I hope that israel take example from us and have a commemeration for all the germans killed in ww2,it would be nice to see them being mature and forward thinking about the whole thing

Sean.3516

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Vast majority of RIC/DMP were just police officers doing the job of a police officer at a dangerous time.

You are referring to a tiny minority.

Yes, the RIC/DMP were not the Gestapo.

Also some of their members committed atrocities during the War of Independence.

Why can’t we recognise these two things can be true at once?

Fann Linn

droidman123 wrote: »

I hope that israel take example from us and have a commemeration for all the germans killed in ww2,it would be nice to see them being mature and forward thinking about the whole thing

And Leo could ask the Indian govt to hold a commemoration for those that committed the Amritsar Massacare in 1919.

buried

McMurphy wrote: »

Warning, the photos not pleasant to look at

No bother Mc, plenty of FG supporters up in here want their history commemorated "warts and all".

Let them see the full warts of what they want to commemorate.

Marcos

droidman123 wrote: »

I hope that israel take example from us and have a commemeration for all the germans killed in ww2,it would be nice to see them being mature and forward thinking about the whole thing

I think a more apt example is the Czech government expecting the Czech population to fall into line and commemorate those responsible for the Lidice massacre. Don’t forget they may also have been killed in the line of duty.

Whatever side you’re on in this debate, the best you can say about it is that it has been handled so badly and crack handedly (sp) that it makes you wonder about the competence of those involved. Then you see that Charlie Flanagan is all for it. Christ what an utter, abject failure for a Minister of Justice he has been. Even worse than Frances Fitzgerald, and that’s saying something. Oh for the days of Shatter, extreme arrogance but he wouldn’t have been so crack handed as this.

CrankyHaus

Fann Linn wrote: »

And Leo could ask the Indian govt to hold a commemoration for those that committed the Amritsar Massacare in 1919.

Whatever about the Indians isn't it high time we honoured the Irish men involved. Shure didn't Colonol Dyer attend Middleton College in Cork and wasn't Lieutenant Governor O'Dwyer a good Tipperary man?

If there's one thing I've learned from this thread it's that any Irishman who served the Empire deserves to be honoured by the Irish state. You wouldn't want to be some Republican bigot holding us back from reconciliation with petty concerns about human rights now would you?

Sir Oxman

The performance of Lord Bruton, Sir Charles and His Majesty Leo is absolutely stunning in it's stupidity.
The doubling down is just the added flourish of West Britishness you'd expect from them.

Marcos

McMurphy wrote: »

Warning, the photos not pleasant to look at.



https://twitter.com/MarkMDub/status/1214331574860341249?s=19

There was a programme about that on TG4 recently. Really sobering to look at, but sure let’s commemorate them all the same. * Jaysus*

Kermit.de.frog

People are saying this is an own goal by the govt. However, the biggest own goal here is in the reaction.

Unification a long way off.

Sir Oxman

I expect FG to lose heavily in the areas outlined on this map.
And any other party that supports this twattery on Jan 17th.

Sean.3516

I don’t think it’s impossible to draw a distinction between the RIC and the Black and Tans just because they operated under the same umbrella. Yes, the official name of the Tans was the “Royal Irish Constabulary Special Reserve” so they technically were a division of the police but the two are distinct in so many ways.

The RIC was staffed mainly by career police officers from Ireland, most of whom were Catholic. The Tans were mostly former soldiers recruited in Britain.

The RIC had been in existence since 1822 and was Ireland’s regular police force during that time. The Tans were formed in 1919 specifically to fight against the IRA.

The RIC usually stuck to conventional police tactics while the Tans who sort of did their own thing much of the time used brutality and terror tactics. The vast majority of the atrocities committed by the British were committed by the Tans, not the RIC.

Nobody wants to commemorate the Black and Tans. We all agree on that. But there’s something to be said for commemorating Irishmen serving in the British Administration (who committed no atrocities) who regrettably ended up fighting against other Irishmen.