RIC and DMP to be commemorated this month

markodaly

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Bad analogy, it would be more akin to the French state commemorating Vichy collaborators.

The RIC/DMP collaborated with a foreign occupier after the Irish nation made it clear they wanted them gone.

Bad analogy. Vichy France was setup after France was conquered by Nazi Germany.

The RIC and DMP existed and operated in Ireland since 1822/1836 respectively.

People go on about democracy, well how democratic was the Rising?

lmimmfn

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

People are saying this is an own goal by the govt. However, the biggest own goal here is in the reaction.

Unification a long way off.

What does this have to do with unification?

selectamatic

Fann Linn wrote: »

Plenty of monuments here around north Roscommon/ Leitrim were Irish men were murdered by Tans supported by local RIC.
Bergin, Mc Dermott, Glavey, Selton Hill ambush.

"On the road up to Tibohine Church in September 1920 Tom McDonagh was shot and killed by an RIC policeman. The Tans arrived to the scene minutes later, tied McDonagh's body to the back of their lorry and dragged him up and down Ballaghaderreen before dumping his remains on the Square. Afterwards they burnt down 17 premises in the town. Two months later and on Christmas week John McGowan, the son of a small farmer from Portahard was dragged out of bed in the middle of the night and shot at point blank range. His last words were to ask for a priest before he was shot again. He was buried at Tibohine cemetery surrounded outside by the Tans and the RIC.
Later this year, one hundred years on we will commemorate Tom McDonagh and John McGowan, not their killers."


One of my local SF candidates posted this to FB. (Can't say I'd vote for her but who knows I'm fast running out of options and I'd traditionally be a FG voter.) The main thing is she's not wrong here.

That's how the RIC and Black and tans responded to an IRA ambush near Rathra House. Police force of law and order my eye.

Sir Oxman

Sean.3516 wrote: »

Yes, the RIC/DMP were not the Gestapo.

Also some of their members committed atrocities during the War of Independence.

Why can’t we recognise these two things can be true at once?

Those that remained in the RIC (excepting double agents) stood alongside the Tans and Auxillaries besides committing multiple atrocities themselves against Irish people.

FrancieBrady

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

People are saying this is an own goal by the govt. However, the biggest own goal here is in the reaction.

Unification a long way off.

I don't want to be unified with the RIC or the Tans. Nobody does I hope.

Kermit.de.frog

lmimmfn wrote: »

What does this have to do with unification?

Plenty of ammunition for unionists.

Compromises will need to be made and maturity is still too lacking sadly.

lmimmfn

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Plenty of ammunition for unionists.

Compromises will need to be made and maturity is still too lacking sadly.

The time for compromise is when everyone is at the table, if this is an attempt to set the stage its idiotic.

FrancieBrady

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Plenty of ammunition for unionists.

Compromises will need to be made and maturity is still too lacking sadly.

Maturity is being able to see both sides. I see both sides, I see how we cannot ask Unionists to commemorate the IRA or those who fought for independence.

FG spectacularly missed that nuance again while bleating on about us deferring to Unionist sensitivities. They are arrogant and completely out of touch.

Junkyard Tom

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Unification a long way off.

Unification will happen when a majority vote for it - you can't bolt on arbitrary FG/Unionist conditions just because you feel like it.

Junkyard Tom

markodaly wrote: »

People go on about democracy, well how democratic was the Rising?

Just as democratic as British rule.

markodaly

The reaction to this in my opinion is one of the reason Ireland still is not a mature country. We do have a very odd sense of our historical self and the mythmaking that surrounds pre 1916 Ireland. The whole 800 years blah blah blah stuff doesnt help.

People going on about a UI and border poll. The mask is slipping and Unionists in the north are going to take note.

cameramonkey

Sean.3516 wrote: »

I don’t think it’s impossible to draw a distinction between the RIC and the Black and Tans just because they operated under the same umbrella. Yes, the official name of the Tans was the “Royal Irish Constabulary Special Reserve” so they technically were a division of the police but the two are distinct in so many ways.

So the Tans were the RIC , got it.

Sean.3516 wrote: »

The RIC was staffed mainly by career police officers from Ireland, most of whom were Catholic. The Tans were mostly former soldiers recruited in Britain.

I'm not sectarian I dont care about what religion they were.

Sean.3516 wrote: »

The RIC had been in existence since 1822 and was Ireland’s regular police force during that time. The Tans were formed in 1919 specifically to fight against the IRA.

See above, the tans were the RIC in name and in actuality.

Sean.3516 wrote: »

The RIC usually stuck to conventional police tactics while the Tans who sort of did their own thing much of the time used brutality and terror tactics. The vast majority of the atrocities committed by the British were committed by the Tans, not the RIC.

Their were plenty of atrocities carried out by both the new comers to the RIC and older members.

Sean.3516 wrote: »

Nobody wants to commemorate the Black and Tans. We all agree on that. But there’s something to be said for commemorating Irishmen serving in the British Administration (who committed no atrocities) who regrettably ended up fighting against other Irishmen.

The Tans were RIC, both groupings within the RIC carried out atrocities, they should not be celebrated.
What have we learned? The Tans were RIC.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

The reaction to this in my opinion is one of the reason Ireland still is not a mature country. We do have a very odd sense of our historical self and the mythmaking that surrounds pre 1916 Ireland. The whole 800 years blah blah blah stuff doesnt help.

People going on about a UI and border poll. The mask is slipping and Unionists in the north are going to take note.

What 'mask'. The RIC and Tans and the Aux have always been hated and for good reason.

Is 'Unionists are going to take note' some sort of 'Wait till your father gets home' scare?

markodaly

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Just as democratic as British rule.

Kinda like the murder of Lyra McKee so.

Everyone thinks they have 'right' on their side and violence as a means to an end is justified.
That is the legacy of the rising on this island.

Even 100 years on, we still hold on to this nonesense.

cameramonkey

markodaly wrote: »

Kinda like the murder of Lyra McKee so.

Everyone thinks they have 'right' on their side and violence as a means to an end is justified.
That is the legacy of the rising on this island.

Even 100 years on, we still hold on to this nonesense.

Its the legacy of UK rule in Ireland.

lmimmfn

markodaly wrote: »

Kinda like the murder of Lyra McKee so.

Everyone thinks they have 'right' on their side and violence as a means to an end is justified.
That is the legacy of the rising on this island.

Even 100 years on, we still hold on to this nonesense.

That is extremely distasteful

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

Kinda like the murder of Lyra McKee so.

Everyone thinks they have 'right' on their side and violence as a means to an end is justified.
That is the legacy of the rising on this island.

Even 100 years on, we still hold on to this nonesense.

The only state still violently achieving their aims is the British one. Violence visited upon whomsoever they deem fit, was always and still is a justified means to an end for them...they are launching a couple of carriers to prove that point.

Beeping Kitchen Appliances

Sean.3516 wrote: »

I don’t think it’s impossible to draw a distinction between the RIC and the Black and Tans just because they operated under the same umbrella. Yes, the official name of the Tans was the “Royal Irish Constabulary Special Reserve” so they technically were a division of the police but the two are distinct in so many ways.

The RIC was staffed mainly by career police officers from Ireland, most of whom were Catholic. The Tans were mostly former soldiers recruited in Britain.

The RIC had been in existence since 1822 and was Ireland’s regular police force during that time. The Tans were formed in 1919 specifically to fight against the IRA.

The RIC usually stuck to conventional police tactics while the Tans who sort of did their own thing much of the time used brutality and terror tactics. The vast majority of the atrocities committed by the British were committed by the Tans, not the RIC.

Nobody wants to commemorate the Black and Tans. We all agree on that. But there’s something to be said for commemorating Irishmen serving in the British Administration (who committed no atrocities) who regrettably ended up fighting against other Irishmen.

All these were interrelated and codependent cogs in a machine. The tans/aux couldn't wander around a foreign country blind. They utilised the local knowledge of the RIC. At the most basic level -roads, hills, forests, choke points. Then more critically safe houses, sympathisers, known rebels etc.

It may be a waste of energy to castigate them. But there is no need to celebrate either them or the rest of the machinery of British rule.

Junkyard Tom

markodaly wrote: »

The mask is slipping and Unionists in the north are going to take note.

Who cares? Unionists have no veto on whether a United Ireland happens or not. That one-man-one-vote thing seems to be difficult for some people to grasp.

Davio

Everyone should e-mail the Taoiseach to complain: leo.varadkar@oireachtas.ie

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What 'mask'. The RIC and Tans and the Aux have always been hated and for good reason.

Is 'Unionists are going to take note' some sort of 'Wait till your father gets home' scare?

RIC != Tans/Aux

People have this arseways. Do you think the RIC officer from Wexford, stationed in Kerry had a that much of a choice say in 1835? I hear Google were hiring back then :rolleyes:

If Ireland was independant in the 19th century, do you not think there would be Irish police officers doing the same thing as they did more or less under the British?

Irish Gardai, defence forces personal and prison officers were targetted and murdered by the Provos for being actors of state oppresion bythe 'Free State'.
We commemerate the death of Adrian Donohoe and other Gardai.

One has to view history holisticly. But I do get for the majority of the masses the lady bird cartoon version of history is appealing. Nationalism is the great equaliser in humans. It always gets the blood going.

tastyt

As a country we are so afraid to be ourselves. We have a history, what happened , happened.

So much of it was horrible but we should be proud of who and what we are. This constant pandering to god knows who and looking to be seen As progressive and forward thinking is nauseating.

A lot of great Irish heroes will turn in their graves if these get commemerated, by a country so cowardly and afraid to be Irish, the very thing those heroes died for.

Wed rather get a pat on the head from the queen or Europe and told that wer a good little boy

lmimmfn

Davio wrote: »

Everyone should e-mail the Taoiseach to complain: leo.varadkar@oireachtas.ie

I'd rather he learnt about public opinion the hard way or fall on his sword

markodaly

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Who cares? Unionists have no veto on whether a United Ireland happens or not. That one-man-one-vote thing seems to be difficult for some people to grasp.

Moderate Unionists and middle class Catholics is where the border poll will live or die on.

The reaction here in the South to this commermeration will raise eyebrows in these quarters and show them how much we in the South are willing to integrate and work with those in the North.

If people are running scared over the commemoration of RIC and DMP men, Irish born men, over a conflict that happened 100 years ago, how in goods name can we actually unify the Island, when we will have to take much harsher medicine about flags, anthems, taxation, language, relationship with the monarchy and the commonwealth?

This issue has just confirms to me that we are a generation or two away from growing up about our past.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The only state still violently achieving their aims is the British one. Violence visited upon whomsoever they deem fit, was always and still is a justified means to an end for them...they are launching a couple of carriers to prove that point.

Say what now? We are talking about Ireland are we?

Junkyard Tom

markodaly wrote: »

the lady bird cartoon version of history

The Ladybird version of history includes 'oh they were just ordinary Irishmen doing a job'. 'Just doing their job'....

How many despicable regimes that committed heinous crimes were 'ordinary men just doing their jobs' instrumental in?

That's a rhetorical question.

Junkyard Tom

markodaly wrote: »

how in goods name can we actually unify the Island.

You seem to think that Unifying the island has some sort of inbuilt requirement for the entire population to bend-the-knee to a pro-colonial view of history, I've news for you - this will never happen.

Similarly there will be no requirement for former unionists to bend the knee to the Republican view of history.

That is respecting each other, not some mealy-mouthed toadying to our former tormetors.

Jakey Rolling

I'm surprised that FG haven't pointed out that the recommendation for this came from the All-Party Group on Commemerations. They seem to have seriously misjudged public opinion on this by acting on that recommendation though. Seems like a huge own goal so close to elections.

https://merrionstreet.ie/en/News-Room/Releases/Minister_Madigan_announces_publication_of_guidance_of_the_Expert_Advisory_Group_on_Decade_of_Centenaries_1919_%E2%80%93_1923_.html

markodaly

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The Ladybird version of history includes 'oh they were just ordinary Irishmen doing a job'. 'Just doing their job'....

How many despicable regimes that committed heinous crimes were 'ordinary men just doing their jobs' instrumental in?

That's a rhetorical question.

Irish men working for the state murdered by the PIRA, we commemorate
Irish men working for the state mudered by the IRA during the civil war, we commemorate
Irish men working for the RIC/DMP murdered by the IRA we denigrate

The only difference is that history is written by the winners.

Sir Oxman

Offaly, Sligo and I think Wexford saying no thanks.