RIC and DMP to be commemorated this month

markodaly

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

You seem to think that Unifying the island has some sort of inbuilt requirement for the entire population to bend-the-knee to a pro-colonial view of history, I've news for you - this will never happen.

Similarly there will be no requirement for former unionists to bend the knee to the Republican view of history.

That is respecting each other, not some mealy-mouthed toadying to our former tormetors.

Yes, respecting each other and each others traditions and view on the history of Ireland.
Yet, how are we to build a nation if we cannot even agree on the basics of commemorating things that happened 100 years ago.

Christ, even the Poppy is a huge thing on this island.
Should we also forget those who died on the losing side of the civil war? If not, why not?

Sean.3516

Beeping Kitchen Appliances wrote: »

All these were interrelated and codependent cogs in a machine. The tans/aux couldn't wander around a foreign country blind. They utilised the local knowledge of the RIC. At the most basic level -roads, hills, forests, choke points. Then more critically safe houses, sympathisers, known rebels etc.

It may be a waste of energy to castigate them. But there is no need to celebrate either them or the rest of the machinery of British rule.

Yeah. After thinking a fair bit I’m leaning more towards this.

They didn’t brutalise the Irish population they way the Tans did therefore they shouldn’t be vilified in the same way.

At the same time there’s no affirmative reason to commemorate them.

lmimmfn

markodaly wrote: »

Yes, respecting each other and each others traditions and view on the history of Ireland.
Yet, how are we to build a nation if we cannot even agree on the basics of commemorating things that happened 100 years ago.

Christ, even the Poppy is a huge thing on this island.
Should we also forget those who died on the losing side of the civil war? If not, why not?

There's no disagreement, we all agree it's disgusting

markodaly

Jakey Rolling wrote: »

I'm surprised that FG haven't pointed out that the recommendation for this came from the All-Party Group on Commemerations. They seem to have seriously misjudged public opinion on this by acting on that recommendation though. Seems like a huge own goal so close to elections.

https://merrionstreet.ie/en/News-Room/Releases/Minister_Madigan_announces_publication_of_guidance_of_the_Expert_Advisory_Group_on_Decade_of_Centenaries_1919_%E2%80%93_1923_.html

This should be communicated more widely, as the narrative is that this is a solo run made by Leo and the minister of Justice, Charlie Flangan.

https://www.chg.gov.ie/app/uploads/2019/01/guidance-from-the-expert-advisory-group-on-commemorations-over-the-remainder-of-the-decade-of-centenaries-eng-1.pdf

The Advisory Group recommends that the foundation of the Defence Forces and of An Garda
Síochána should be commemorated appropriately.
Consideration should also be given to the organisation of specific initiatives to commemorate the

Royal Irish Constabulary (RIC) and the Dublin Metropolitan Police (DMP) and to acknowledge
their place in history.

The Group recommends that the archive, museum and library network around the country should
play a significant role in supporting citizen engagement.

Young people will need to be supported appropriately in learning about this seminal but
sometimes divisive and difficult period in our history, particularly in its concluding phase.

The people on the export group.
https://www.decadeofcentenaries.com/expert-group/

Members of the All-Party Consulation Group
https://www.decadeofcentenaries.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Meeting-of-All-Party-Consultation-Group-on-Commemorations-note-10-dec.pdf

So, it seems all political parties approved this initiative.

Junkyard Tom

markodaly wrote: »

Irish men working for the RIC/DMP murdered by the IRA we denigrate.

Who is denigrating them? They've been described collectively as being on 'the wrong side of history' -- that is remarkably generous for a paramilitary force that carried out some disgusting crimes in defence of a foreign occupier.

Trying to create equivalence between a struggle for freedom and those trying to prevent it is perverse - you will not get away with it. Hopefully FG get punished in the next election and it will serve as a lesson to others.

Kermit.de.frog

Plenty of thugs and gurriers in the IRB who carried out disgusting crimes at the time like burning people, mainly protestants from homes and involved in murder and execution.

The IRB should not be commemorated based on the same moral standard put forward by some.

markodaly

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Who is denigrating them? They've been described collectively as being on 'the wrong side of history' -- that is remarkably generous for a paramilitary force that carried out some disgusting crimes in defence of a foreign occupier.

Arent they the wrong side of history?
If the leaders of the rising were just jailed and not executed, then the whole rising would have been a useless exercise and the IPP would have won the 1918 elections, with Home Rule already agreed upon (Unionist objections aside). History would have played out very differently.

Trying to create equivalence between a struggle for freedom and those trying to prevent it is perverse - you will not get away with it. Hopefully FG get punished in the next election and it will serve as a lesson to others.

Perhaps in a binary cartoonish world, that view may hold sway. Not every move to independance needs to be masked in murder and mayhem.

And beside, this is commemeration is a recommendation by an all party committee. Make sure the vent your anger at FG/FF/SF/Labour etc.. as well.

lmimmfn

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Plenty of thugs and gurriers in the IRB who carried out disgusting crimes at the time like burning people, mainly protestants from homes and involved in murder and execution.

The IRB should not be commemorated based on the same moral standard put forward by some.

If you'd prefer to be singing God Save the Queen and using sterling I would agree with you.

Sean.3516

cameramonkey wrote: »

So the Tans were the RIC , got it.

cameramonkey wrote: »

I'm not sectarian I dont care about what religion they were.

I’m not sectarian either. The reason I mentioned Catholic was to emphasise that most pre-War of Independence RIC men were from the same cultural background as the people they were fighting against as opposed to the Tans who had no connection whatsoever to the country in which they were operating.

cameramonkey wrote: »

The Tans were RIC, both groupings within the RIC carried out atrocities, they should not be celebrated.
What have we learned? The Tans were RIC.

Fair enough. I’ll concede this point although this is a semantic point more than anything. I’d simply re-phrase my argument to say that perhaps certain parts of the RIC should be thought of differently than other parts. Particular the parts that existed prior to the War of Independence as opposed to the new units that were added during the war.

Junkyard Tom

markodaly wrote: »

Arent they the wrong side of history?

It's generously benign. Like they woke up one morning and everything had changed. In spite of the Rising, in spite of the public mood, in spite of the overwhelming mandate for independence in 1918 they chose to keep enforcing British misrule and indeed persisted even when they saw their colleagues torture and murder their fellow Irishmen.

If the leaders of the rising were just jailed and not executed, then the whole rising would have been a useless exercise and the IPP would have won the 1918 elections, with Home Rule already agreed upon (Unionist objections aside). History would have played out very differently.

That's just counterfactual shite. If and buts. If the British had just said 'okay we get the message' and left after the 1918 election there would have been no War of Independence. If Aliens had landed and given the IRA laser weapons... how far down the idiot-hole would you like to go?

Sir Oxman

markodaly wrote: »

This should be communicated more widely, as the narrative is that this is a solo run made by Leo and the minister of Justice, Charlie Flangan.

https://www.chg.gov.ie/app/uploads/2019/01/guidance-from-the-expert-advisory-group-on-commemorations-over-the-remainder-of-the-decade-of-centenaries-eng-1.pdf



The people on the export group.
https://www.decadeofcentenaries.com/expert-group/

Members of the All-Party Consulation Group
https://www.decadeofcentenaries.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Meeting-of-All-Party-Consultation-Group-on-Commemorations-note-10-dec.pdf

So, it seems all political parties approved this initiative.

Not quite.

https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/royal-irish-constabulary-4955317-Jan2020/

"The government must bear some responsibility for this, both in its un-nuanced communications and the fact that the All-Party Consultation Group on Commemorations does not seem to have been consulted on this particular event.

Is this a solo run by the minister and the Historical and Reconciliation Police Society (HARP)?"

Suckit

saabsaab wrote: »

I don't think anyone wanted to commemorate those who killed unarmed civilians in Bloody Sunday or who assassinated Tomas MacCurtin (illegal acts by their own measure) or the 'Black and Tans' or 'Auxies' just ordinary RIC men. However it is evident that this is being misunderstood not adequately explained/defined and is turning into a PR fiasco.

If that is the case then they should hold off.

I personally never chime in on these type of debates.
But I can't help on this one, knowing people that were personally affected by the RIC.

One man in particular (had a pretty hardy life) was fairly happy all of the time from when I first knew him. He developed a form of dementia in his later years, that his family initially thought was Parkinsons. He was diagnosed with a mild form of Korsakoff disease (I believe), but I think there were other concerns.
He screamed almost every night for two or three years of being tortured by the RIC after stopping them from beating on a young guy.
He told all of us the story (I don't want to go into identifying details) about what they did. That happened until he died.
It is very understandable that a massive contingent will not approve of this while those sort of memories are still very prominent in their heads.

So many others should be commemorated before something like the RIC should even be looked at. At the time, the RIC were literally a body run by the British to repress the Irish people and stop them from fighting for any form of freedom.

I look forward to the day we commemorate the people that repressed same sex couples, Feminism, Racism etc..

I'm annoyed with myself for getting so annoyed.
But at the same time, I will undoubtedly be reminded (as will families far more affected than I), for a long time, that their behaviour was 'forgiven'. Maybe even celebrated and respected - according to the Oxford definition of commemorate.

gormdubhgorm

The more I think of this the more it annoys me. There seems to be many with a very simplistic view of history based on a single mindset. Anyone who even has a cursory interest in history, knows that history is not black or white. It is not good v evil.
Practicalities come into it and day to day life.

If you look at the Solohedbeg ambush for instance. It was eight men against two RIC men guarding gelignite.
The Irish Volunteers involved in Solohedbeg were Seán Treacy, Dan Breen, Seamus Robinson Seán Hogan, Patrick McCormack, Patrick O'Dwyer Tadhg Crowe, and Michael Ryan.

The two RIC men were killed and their names are largely forgotten or a footnote in most versions of Irish history.
Constable Patrick O’Connell was 30 years old, he was from Coachford in Co Cork and was going to get married. James McDonnell was a constable as well, a native Irish speaker. McDonnell was from Belmullet in Co Mayo. In his case it was particularly sad as McDonnell was a 56-year-old widower and the father of seven children.

Fellas just trying to make a living like anyone today.
Both RIC men Catholics by the way in case people are wondering.

For their raid the Irish volunteers got three boxes of gelignite, which Breen said that it never got used anyway, because the frost got at it when it was buried. And it was of more danger to the fella using it than anything. So what did it achieve?

Of course, today Robinson, Breen and Treacy etc are feted as heroes.
But the RIC lads are forgotten as they were ‘British’.

Plus, what happened when Ireland became the Free State? The British Civil Service was kept for decades in Ireland and the red post boxes were given a green coat of paint!

I am no Leo fan. But I believe Leo is doing the right thing in this case as it takes away the fakery that hangs over Irish history. Also, it could help towards the goal of a United Ireland in the long run as the Unionists will know that other cultures and viewpoints can be recognised. Not only, the staunch Republican one.

I know there is a lot of the stereotypical/hypocritical ‘oh ah up the rah’ brigade with Celtic and Liverpool/Man United tattoos who make little effort with the Irish language.
But they can comfortably say ‘we’ for British teams without a hint of irony. They also watch British entertainment shows, like British bands and speak English. Feck all Irish except ‘Tiocfaidh ár lá.
Yet still go on about how they hate the English….

These types enjoy the mystic of Republicanism. But to me, those types are nothing more than plastic paddies.
These are the people that Mary Lou ( ex Fianna Fáiler) et al are trying to appeal to in these ‘protests’ to try and get republican kudos, with the not so bright and/or bigots.

An Claidheamh

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Irish/British, British/Irish, Irish but also British.

Back then in it was very different to today in what's now the ROI, whereby there is a clear line, or distinction between being British or Irish.

My parents were Irish/British, both born in Dublin before the ROI separated itself politically and (some would say geographically) from the rest of these islands ......

Like many Irish families, my family would have had strong ties to the RIC back in the day.

I know you're a product of the British education system....

but how exactly did we "geographically separate from these islands" (as we're on one)?


By the way, thanks for your family connections for being so useless.

J Mysterio

I'm shocked and apalled at the idea of the government holding an event to commemorate ('recall and show respect for') the RIC. The Royal Irish Constabulary.

Absolutely bizarre and quite offensive. That organization has an awful history in this country, and it really was not that long ago. It should have been painfully obvious this would be highly controversial and i'm strongly against it.

I'm proud of how this country fought for and won our right to self determination. That fight involved overcoming the British state apparatus, of which the RIC was a principal element. The RIC - in all its guises - committed terrible atrocities in Ireland on Irish people and to commemorate it is perverse.

An Claidheamh

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

The difference being these clowns were terrorists outside the law.

Yeah, as opposed to the terrorists operating inside the law...

What law would that be then?

The Divine Right of Kings?

Lucy8080

Well, I guess Christmas is over. Waking up to normal life again , making a bit of breakfast before the day ahead, take a cursory look at social media----

#BlackandTans is trending. Nothing to see here.

Potential-Monke

Thread is already too long to read, so maybe someone can help me here. Should I be:

A: Offended, disgusted and outright angry at the thought of it
B: Not bothered in the slightest
C: Laughing at the people verbally fighting each other
In my room masturbating

Professor Genius

I was born on a Dublin street where the royal drums did beat,
And those loving English feet they tramped all over us,
And each and every night when me father came home tight
He'd invite the neighbors outside with this chorus:
Come out ye Black and Tans, come out and fight me like a man,
Show your wife how you won medals down in Flanders,
Tell them how the IRA made you run like hell away
From the green and lovely lanes of Killashandra.

jmcc

Sean.3516 wrote: »

Honestly I don’t see conscription as a price too high to pay for Home Rule.

It is always brave little chicken hawks like you that send men out to die rather than go fight themselves.

It is as simple as this: Varadkar and Flanagan are traitors to the memory of those who fought for Irish freedom.

Flanagan is the son of an anti-semitic gombeen bigot. His father would probably want to commemorate concentration camp guards and he is no better. He wants to commemorate the paramilitary force that guarded the food that was shipped out of Ireland during the Famine when Irish people starved.

Varadkar is just a politically incompetent poseur playing at being taoiseach in between Kylie Minogue concerts. Hopefully FG will do what is necessary soon after the next GE.

The RIC was a paramilitary organisation that was intended to keep Ireland suppressed and under the control of the British using terror tactics.

The two of these gombeens would rather be good little English MPs rather than Irish TDs. Even that useless gobsh!te John "Unionist" Bruton was on the Claire Byrne show advocating that the Black and Tans be commemorated too.

Home Rule isn't freedom. It is serfdom to an inbred bunch of middle class Germans masquerading as a "royal" family. Perhaps you want to be British but this is Ireland. And Ireland -- most of it -- is free because people thought differently to you and fought for the right to be free. The Black and Tans, the Auxillaries and much of the RIC were the enemies of Irish freedom and the Irish people. Varadkar, Flanagan and Bruton are a disgrace to Fine Gael.

Regards...jmcc

Millionaire only not

jmcc wrote: »

It is always brave little chicken hawks like you send men out to die rather than go fight themselves.

It is as simple as this: Varadkar and Flanagan are traitors to the memory of those who fought for Irish freedom.

Flanagan is the son of an anti-semitic gombeen bigot. His father would probably want to commemorate concentration camp guards and he is no better. He wants to commemorate the paramilitary force that guarded the food that was shipped out of Ireland during the Famine when Irish people starved.

Varadkar is just a politically incompetent poseur playing at being taoiseach in between Kylie Minogue concerts. Hopefully FG will do the needful soon after the next GE.

The RIC was a paramilitary organisation that was intended to keep Ireland suppressed and under the control of the British using terror tactics.

The two of these gombeens would rather be good little English MPs rather than Irish TDs. Even that useless gobsh!te John "Unionist" Bruton was on the Claire Byrne show advocating that the Black and Tans be commemorated too.

Home Rule isn't freedom. It is serfdom to an inbred bunch of middle class Germans masquerading as a "royal" family. Perhaps you want to be British but this is Ireland. And Ireland -- most of it -- is free because people thought differently to you and fought for the right to be free. The Black and Tans, the Auxillaries and much of the RIC were the enemies of Irish freedom and the Irish people. Varadkar, Flanagan and Bruton are a disgrace to Fine Gael.

Regards...jmcc

Well put Jmcc

Anyone supporting this or even the the thought of it should be truly ashamed!
If your house was burned tommrw morning , thrown out on the road how would u feel !

They were great people to start up again with little or no money!
The thought of this makes me cringe ! It’s so disheartening in this country they haven’t learned one thing since sending the country into recession !

Another million or 2 gone on this load of nonsense , give to homelessness or straighten out the overcrowded hospitals !
Waste waste every day even apart from the wrong of celebrating unwanted people in our country !

I’ve seen the petition and all but nothing of a protest yet. Surely there will be one?

Lucy8080

The D.M.P. weren't too popular during the lock-out in Dublin in 1913. It seems that even R.T.E. are recognising/reporting this fact.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

The more I think of this the more it annoys me. There seems to be many with a very simplistic view of history based on a single mindset. Anyone who even has a cursory interest in history, knows that history is not black or white. It is not good v evil.
Practicalities come into it and day to day life.

If you look at the Solohedbeg ambush for instance. It was eight men against two RIC men guarding gelignite.
The Irish Volunteers involved in Solohedbeg were Seán Treacy, Dan Breen, Seamus Robinson Seán Hogan, Patrick McCormack, Patrick O'Dwyer Tadhg Crowe, and Michael Ryan.

The two RIC men were killed and their names are largely forgotten or a footnote in most versions of Irish history.
Constable Patrick O’Connell was 30 years old, he was from Coachford in Co Cork and was going to get married. James McDonnell was a constable as well, a native Irish speaker. McDonnell was from Belmullet in Co Mayo. In his case it was particularly sad as McDonnell was a 56-year-old widower and the father of seven children.

Fellas just trying to make a living like anyone today.
Both RIC men Catholics by the way in case people are wondering.

For their raid the Irish volunteers got three boxes of gelignite, which Breen said that it never got used anyway, because the frost got at it when it was buried. And it was of more danger to the fella using it than anything. So what did it achieve?

Of course, today Robinson, Breen and Treacy etc are feted as heroes.
But the RIC lads are forgotten as they were ‘British’.

Plus, what happened when Ireland became the Free State? The British Civil Service was kept for decades in Ireland and the red post boxes were given a green coat of paint!

I am no Leo fan. But I believe Leo is doing the right thing in this case as it takes away the fakery that hangs over Irish history. Also, it could help towards the goal of a United Ireland in the long run as the Unionists will know that other cultures and viewpoints can be recognised. Not only, the staunch Republican one.

I know there is a lot of the stereotypical/hypocritical ‘oh ah up the rah’ brigade with Celtic and Liverpool/Man United tattoos who make little effort with the Irish language.
But they can comfortably say ‘we’ for British teams without a hint of irony. They also watch British entertainment shows, like British bands and speak English. Feck all Irish except ‘Tiocfaidh ár lá.
Yet still go on about how they hate the English….

These types enjoy the mystic of Republicanism. But to me, those types are nothing more than plastic paddies.
These are the people that Mary Lou ( ex Fianna Fáiler) et al are trying to appeal to in these ‘protests’ to try and get republican kudos, with the not so bright and/or bigots.

Nonsense.

Most people in this country understand the nuances you allude to in the first part of your post.

We know there were those in the RIC and the DMP who were just doing their jobs as there were in any colonial force in the world, or as there was in the RUC and the BA.

However, honouring/commemorating the existence of the RIC or the DMP and their boot boys as 'organisations' is a step too far.
No other peoples/societies would be expected to do it. It is hardly a wet week since another couple of those organisations The RUC and the UDR had to be 'forgotten' because of their behaviour.

degrassinoel

anyone else think this stunt is just to poke a finger in Sinn Fein's eye before the elections?

Honestly thought it was a waterford whispers article i was reading at first :pac:

FrancieBrady

degrassinoel wrote: »

anyone else think this stunt is just to poke a finger in Sinn Fein's eye before the elections?

Honestly thought it was a waterford whispers article i was reading at first :pac:

TBH it is typical FG end of term activity. the arrogance to think that they can do what they like.

upupup

Don't Commemorate The Black and Tans petitionhttps://www.change.org/p/fine-gael-don-t-commemorate-the-black-and-tans

ChikiChiki

They are antagonizing many of the people they would have been relying on for votes. It's another spectacular own goal.

FF are a shoe in now. I reckon Leo wants to go to Europe anyway.

TwoMonthsOff

upupup wrote: »

Don't Commemorate The Black and Tans petitionhttps://www.change.org/p/fine-gael-don-t-commemorate-the-black-and-tans

Ive signed that petition, what's the story with people donating money, what charity does it go to?

weldoninhio

markodaly wrote: »

The reaction to this in my opinion is one of the reason Ireland still is not a mature country. We do have a very odd sense of our historical self and the mythmaking that surrounds pre 1916 Ireland. The whole 800 years blah blah blah stuff doesnt help.

People going on about a UI and border poll. The mask is slipping and Unionists in the north are going to take note.

A zionist taking the side of the land grabbers. Well I never!! :eek: