RIC and DMP to be commemorated this month

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Moderate Unionists wouldn't expect us to commemorate this, as middle class Catholics (why are you being sectarian here???) would not expect Unionists to commemorate the IRA or the 1916 leaders.

Our reaction to this is for all to see. As someone who is skeptical of a UI in the first place because of stupid hangups, we have about what uniform their great grandfather wore and so on, I am delighted.

Kiss that UI goodbye before we even started.

Leo thought he could bludgeon this through and point out the detractors as the 'ooh ah up the RA' brigade as some are doing here.

Massive fail again Leo.

Again, this was a recommendation by an all-party committee, SF included.
People seem to be forgetting this crucial bit of information.

Nift

jmcc wrote: »

Rubbish! 50% + 1. That's what it takes.

Mature? Traitorous, pondscum intellected FG politicians always used that excuse when they try to downgrade Irish history.

A bunch of middle class Germans who had to change their German name to "Windsor" because their government got into a little bit of World War with their inbred moron of a cousin.

Would those be the 1916 celebrations where the morons in FG/Labour got some equally dimwitted f*cktards to produce a video about 1916 that had the Queen of England, Sir Bob Geldorf, that gobsh!te Bono but none of the 1916 leaders or the fact that there had been an Easter Rising?

One couldn't trust FG/Labour to boil water without burning it.

Regards...jmcc

50 per cent plus 1, how do you think thats going to work out then?

The word mature is in regards to realizing that history is complex, and that another civil war would follow, or the lesser evil of an independent Northern Ireland would happen if people like yourself had their way. Sure they should all feck off back to britain after re-unification. Is that your viewpoint, or a like it or lump it one? Thats great for a progressive society.

I'll put it in bold for you. A United Ireland will never ever, ever happen if thats the way you or others think. And if we railroaded a million or so into the Repuiblic against their wishes, are we not just reversing the roles. Its a situation that needs to be treated with kid gloves. Thats where mature comes into it.

And if you don't want a United Ireland, well then you can't be a Republican. But unfortunately for a United Ireland we can't have a Republic. Quite the conundrum.

jmcc

Sean.3516 wrote: »

100% catholic boy from the Republic of Ireland here.

Catholic, as in the religion, is spelled with a capital 'c'. Perhaps when you grow up and actually read some history, your views will change.

And wasn’t trolling. Just pointing out some facts that don’t quite align with the “Ooh Aah, Up the Ra” mythology.

If you were not trolling then the alternative explanation is that you are ignorant of geography and history. The use of the term "Fenian" in the manner you used it is a characteristic of Loyalists. So which is it?

Regards...jmcc

marieholmfan

Nift wrote: »

50 per cent plus 1, how do you think thats going to work out then?

The word mature is in regards to realizing that history is complex, and that another civil war would follow, or the lesser evil of an independent Northern Ireland would happen if people like yourself had their way. Sure they should all feck off back to britain after re-unification. Is that your viewpoint, or a like it or lump it one? Thats great for a progressive society.

50% + 1 works out violently and progessivism is dead.

is_that_so

markodaly wrote: »

Again, this was a recommendation by an all-party committee, SF included.
People seem to be forgetting this crucial bit of information.

There is a marked difference between the quality of national level politicians and councillors, the latter even more given to shape throwing and childish squabbles.

markodaly

Bambi wrote: »

First Dáíl Eireann baby, massive popular mandate for independence. RIC went the other way, became the terrorists.

Then guys like Dev became the terrorists when they fought the free state.

As I said, should we commemorate the losers of the Civil war and if so, why?

jmcc

Nift wrote: »

50 per cent plus 1, how do you think thats going to work out then?

Democratically.

Regards...jmcc

markodaly

marieholmfan wrote: »

The vast majority of voters for the Irish house of commons weren't Irish.

It was an Irish Parliament. Anyway, what were they?

corner of hells

Tzardine wrote: »

Do you have any more info on this? Who is organising it?

It's being organised by Aontu .

marieholmfan

markodaly wrote: »

It was an Irish Parliament. Anyway, what were they?

They were overwhelmingly English colonists (there were some Irish people who participated).

J Mysterio

mariaalice wrote:

It would be intersting to see what soemone one like Dermot Ferriter has to say on the matter.

He had an article in the Irish Times on Saturday

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/heritage/black-and-tans-half-drunk-whole-mad-and-one-fifth-irish-1.4113220?mode=amp

gormdubhgorm

Bambi wrote: »

First Dáíl Eireann baby, massive popular mandate for independence. RIC went the other way, became the terrorists.

There was a mandate for 1919, not for 1916 though.
It only changed to the British approach to 1916.

Plus there was never a mandate, and still there is not a mandate for armed Republicanism after the Free State was founded. No matter how some wish to spin it. The majority for the vote was never there.

If majority of people on this thread truly believe that the RIC and DMP full of Irishmen (born and bred) were traitors to Ireland. They should also believe that the ROI and its arms of the state are still traitors to Ireland. That includes the Gardai, Army, Dail etc.
But thankfully only a very tiny small minority, believe this in Ireland today.
That is the reality of it.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

Again, this was a recommendation by an all-party committee, SF included.
People seem to be forgetting this crucial bit of information.

Again: They recommended that consideration BE GIVEN to commemorating the RIC and DMP.

The government therefore had the latitude to say, we have considered commemorating the RIC and DMPas recommended but given their history as an organisation we have decided not to commemorate them as a group.

Sean.3516

jmcc wrote: »

The whole move from Home Rule to Independence must have been missing from the John Bruton colouring book of history for little neo-Unionists (complete with red, white and blue edible crayons).

I’m not denying this happened. I’m just saying we weren’t militarily occupied at the time.

jmcc wrote: »

Are you intellectually challenged are just trolling? That was not Britain's "name".

Emm. Yea it was. The Act of Union in 1800 integrated the island of Ireland into the nation of Great Britain and changed the country’s name to “The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland”.

In 1922, they changed the name to “The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland”. This is still the official name today. You often hear it used at international sports competitions like the IAAF World Champs. or the Olympics when Britain is called up to get a medal.

McMurphy

whisky_galore wrote: »

Timings to suit the unemployed and unemployable.

FG divide and conquer plan is coming on well I see - I'll give them kudos for that at least.

golfball37

Micheal Martin showing he is not fit for the highest office over his non position on this. Saying he didn't get an invite when scores of opposition TDs have gotten one is pathetic. Using this as an excuse to not take a position is also troubling.

markodaly

marieholmfan wrote: »

They were overwhelmingly English colonists (there were some Irish people who participated).

Yet, they rejected the act the first time out... why was that?

jmcc

markodaly wrote: »

They did actually.

From Wiki

That wasn't the Irish people voting. Are you completely clueless about Irish and British history. Go read about the Act of Union and who could vote for candidates for the "Irish" House of Commons.

Regards...jmcc

FrancieBrady

Nift wrote: »

50 per cent plus 1, how do you think thats going to work out then?

The word mature is in regards to realizing that history is complex, and that another civil war would follow, or the lesser evil of an independent Northern Ireland would happen if people like yourself had their way. Sure they should all feck off back to britain after re-unification. Is that your viewpoint, or a like it or lump it one? Thats great for a progressive society.

I'll put it in bold for you. A United Ireland will never ever, ever happen if thats the way you or others think. And if we railroaded a million or so into the Repuiblic against their wishes, are we not just reversing the roles. Its a situation that needs to be treated with kid gloves. Thats where mature comes into it.

And if you don't want a United Ireland, well then you can't be a Republican. But unfortunately for a United Ireland we can't have a Republic. Quite the conundrum.

So if a majority vote for a UI as per a hard fought international agreement you will 'railroad' them into remaining in a Union they don't want to and continue to call yourself a 'mature democrat'.

You have to laugh at the hypocrisy here.

Zebra3

Sean.3516 wrote: »

Yes it is easy for me to say. I accept that.

I’m simply making a judgement as to what the best way was to achieve the aims of Irish Nationalism given the situation in 1914.

What’s your point?

You’re doing the exact same thing when you have the idealistic “Republic or Nothing!” attitude when it’s when now 100 years after the fact and we now have a Republic.

Most Irish people weren’t in even in favour of a Republic in 1914-16, not if it meant fighting a rebellion anyway. I mean the people of Dublin threw fruit at the Irish Volunteers as they were being marched to Kilmainham!

What makes you think that those people were just as gung ho as you would have been (you having the benefit of hindsight and they don’t) about republican ideals?

Yes, it’s very easy for BOTH of us to say what we would have done or would have believed in 1914.

At least I’m acknowledging it.

(Side note, we weren’t “occupied” by Great Britain in 1914. Ireland was an integrated part of Great Britain.)



Well, Jewish immigrants to Palestine during this time didn’t steal the land or colonise it. They bought it. Largely with money donated by Jewish philanthropists in Europe. They bought it from local Arabs a lot of whom were absentee landlords. The Ottoman Empire (who owned Palestine at the time) allowed it.The brits didn’t become involved until after WWI at which point a two-state solution was the best remedy as opposed to deporting Jews who’d been living there for decades now.

750,000 Palestinians were forced from their homes by Zionist terrorists.

Hundreds of Palestinian towns and villages were destroyed or taken over by foreign colonialists.

And my point about 1914 was that going to fight for your occupier was a stupid thing to do.

You make it sound like it was no big deal.

Ash.J.Williams

The Satanist wrote: »

They were collaborators and traitors. I celebrate only their death.

Not a satanist at all then

markodaly

jmcc wrote: »

That wasn't the Irish people voting. Are you completely clueless about Irish and British history. Go read about the Act of Union and who could vote for candidates for the "Irish" House of Commons.

Regards...jmcc

Did the Irish people vote on the Treaty?

Sean.3516

jmcc wrote: »

Catholic, as in the religion, is spelled with a capital 'c'. Perhaps when you grow up and actually read some history, your views will change.

Genuinely sorry for not using the capital “C” for Catholic. Normally I’m the grammar nazi.

Also I would bet that I’m more historically knowledgeable than yourself.

jmcc wrote: »

If you were not trolling then the alternative explanation is that you are ignorant of geography and history. The use of the term "Fenian" in the manner you used it is a characteristic of Loyalists. So which is it?

So unionists have a monopoly on the word “Fenian”? Didn’t know that. I also didn’t know that it was a term of derision only used by Unionists against Republicans.

Didn’t the Republicans call themselves “The Fenian Brotherhood” for a while?

jmcc

Sean.3516 wrote: »

I’m not denying this happened. I’m just saying we weren’t militarily occupied at the time.

Garrison towns and a paramilitary force (RIC) keeping order are the facts that blow your fantasy out of the water.

Emm. Yea it was. The Act of Union in 1800 integrated the island of Ireland into the nation of Great Britain and changed the country’s name to “The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland”.

So not only are you ignorant of history and geography, you are illiterate as well? Ireland was still Ireland and even the formal titles for the British government posts in Ireland reflected that.

In 1922, they changed the name to “The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland”. This is still the official name today.

So not "Britain", then?

Regards...jmcc

Nift

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So if a majority vote for a UI as per a hard fought international agreement you will 'railroad' them into remaining in a Union they don't want to and continue to call yourself a 'mature democrat'.

You have to laugh at the hypocrisy here.

Where did i say any of that? I'm saying that's where the idea of a "mature" position comes from. It has nothing to do with Fine Gael or anything. A common refrain on here or the journal is...phuck them the orange prods and send them back to Scotland/UK. Its a moronic line of thinking that must be called out every time. Sinn Fein themselves have talked of the changes needed if we do ever re-unite. New flag, anthem, federalism, capitals. Commemorations 100 per cent will come into it as well. this whole debacle has highlighted how unready we are for any border poll.

It needs to be very carefully managed. The whole RIC thing is part of it, rightly or wrongly.

Personally i don't think there will be a United Ireland in the next 50 years at least. You can see the reasons all over here, reddit, the journal. Or if it did happen, there would be guaranteed bloodshed.

You have to laugh at the misty eyed romantic Republicanism. When it comes face to face with reality there will be tears.

As we see with Brexit, a 50 plus one majority may be democratic but its not necessarily good for democracy.

jmcc

markodaly wrote: »

Did the Irish people vote on the Treaty?

Trying to save face? The Irish people did not vote on the Act of Union. The vast majority of Irish people were disenfranchised.

Regards...jmcc

FrancieBrady

Nift wrote: »

Where did i say any of that? I'm saying that's where the idea of a "mature" position comes from. It has nothing to do with Fine Gael or anything. A common refrain on here or the journal is...phuck them the orange prods and send them back to Scotland/UK. Its a moronic line of thinking that must be called out every time. Sinn Fein themselves have talked of the changes needed if we do ever re-unite.

It needs to be very carefully managed. The whole RIC thing is part of it, rightly or wrongly.

Personally i don't think there will be a United Ireland in the next 50 years at least. You can see the reasons all over here, reddit, the journal. Or if it did happen, there would be guaranteed bloodshed.

You have to laugh at the misty eyed romantic Republicanism. When it comes face to face with reality there will be tears.

As we see with Brexit, a 50 plus one majority may be democratic but its not necessarily good for democracy.

We 'manage' referendums very well in comparison to the ****show Brexit was.

How is the whole 'RIC' thing part of 'it'?

A majority after a properly run referendum were all opinions are transparent and properly aired, debated and tested is a perfectly adequate expression of democracy.

Nift

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/heritage/black-and-tans-half-drunk-whole-mad-and-one-fifth-irish-1.4113220

gormdubhgorm

I also think it the this protests are a good opportunity for Sinn Fein to hide behind,

If you look at Sinn Fein's aims from thier website -

https://www.sinnfein.ie/what-sinn-fein-stands-for

United Ireland

"Sinn Féin is a 32-County party striving for an end to partition on the island of Ireland and the establishment of a democratic socialist republic."

= failed


(have never brought the Unionists onside nor will they as evidenced by thier attitude to the DMP and RIC memorials)



Accountability and governance

"We oppose the politics of cronyism, sectarianism and exclusion which has been at the heart of political culture North and South in the past and the present"

= failed

(They have never looked close to even getting in opposition in the Dail, got hammered in the last election.
They have played childish games up North for years while not governing in Stormont.
Not to mention the McConville case, Jerry McCabe case, Northern Bank, Gerry Adams brother etc etc. All quietly forgotten)

---

So it is much easier for SF to play the Republican card now as it will play well with the grassroots and distract them from their real issues/failings.

The other parties/individuals who jumped on this protest against the DMP/RIC memorial are only playing for votes from the simple minded.

jmcc

Sean.3516 wrote: »

Genuinely sorry for not using the capital “C” for Catholic. Normally I’m the grammar nazi.

Well, it was Charlie Flanagan's father who was the Nazi.

Also I would bet that I’m more historically knowledgeable than yourself.

Evidently not.

I also didn’t know that it was a term of derision only used by Unionists against Republicans.

See above.

Didn’t the Republicans call themselves “The Fenian Brotherhood” for a while?

The Republicans? You've been watching too much CNN.

Regards...jmcc