RIC and DMP to be commemorated this month

CrankyHaus

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Yeah, it is going a bit far. They had to be taken on or freedom could not be achieved. As severe as it sounds the truth is that they deserved to be killed.

I disagree with that. Many or even most were just normal Irish people doing their best with limited opportunities under a corrupt and oppressive system. Their conflicted loyalties in the War of Independence is evidence of that.

However there is a huge gap between recognising that and giving them a state commemoration, that is the state paying respects to an organisation that oppressed, terrorised and murdered Irish people for a century (a period which included the penal laws).

It's disappointing, but not surprising, to see this government turning our history into a pack of lies with which to whitewash some people's family histories. As the son of one of Ireland's foremost anti semites, who proposed ethnic cleansing in emulation of the Nazis, I'm sure Charlie Flanagan can relate to such people.

Incidentally, when has the Irish state commemorating the RIC ever been a core demand of the Ulster Unionist community? Their concerns are generally far more prosaic and their extermists would view most of the RIC as a rabble of southern Taigs anyway.

Scoundrel

Absolutely gross subservience from FG no other nation on earth commemorates it's traitors. Do the Russians commemorate the Vlasov army? Do the Norwegians commemorate Quisling and his men? Do the French commemorate the Vichy? The Belgians Degrelle? etc etc It really is incredibly insulting

TheValeyard

minikin wrote: »

Volkstrauertag - a commemoration of ALL who died in war and by oppressive governments.

If we don’t humanise all who died then the headbangers will try to dehumanise them and that only leads to further death.

And before anyone starts... have ancestors that were involved in opposing sides of the conflict: RIC and Old IRA.Simplifying our history into ‘them and us’ ignores the reality of Ireland at the time.

From what I understood, It does not remember Stasi/ SS but rather their victims. I do see why they remember the soldiers of the wehrmacht though.

KWAG2019

There is so much objectionable, nonsensical and offensive about this commemoration that it is hard to know where to start.

The RIC/DMP were agents of British colonial control and oppression in Ireland. There is no reason to commemorate that or its agents.

What has happened now is that there is a version of "inclusivity" used to promote absurdities like this commemoration. These men may like many others who served in Brit forces have had all sorts of reasons for doing so but those are all irrelevant in the commemoration of the War of Independence. That commemoration should be of those who fought and died for our freedom, not those who opposed it. By resurrecting the division of 100 years ago the govt has been divisive and provocative. The HARP group of those who promote the memory of RIC/DMP may see this as a win for them but they have re-opened old wounds. It reflects nothing on anybody today that they had a relative in DMP/RIC or British forces upholding colonial oppression here. By creating a commemoration that seeks to honour and remember those who fought against our freedom the State is showing the absurd lack of confidence which has bedevilled it in recent years.

There is also an absurd idea that by doing this you are advancing unity. There is a profound naivete and innocence about dealing with Unionists/loyalists and that obsequiousness like this make us more attractive to them. You don't negotiate in advance of negotiations and you don't declare your hand unless you've already surrendered.

And let's be very clear: there is an agenda of undermining our status as an independent sovereign republic. When the Minister of Justice refers to the killing of RIC/DMP as "murder" he denies that the War of Independence was a struggle for our freedom. He is implicitly upholding the imposition of British colonialism by force by that force. When John Bruton refers to the highlight of his time as Taoiseach as meeting the Prince of Wales you begin to get a sense of something. There are people in the 26 counties today who wish us to rejoin the British Commonwealth. Who wish us to be a satellite of Britain tied by some sort of federal solution akin to Home Rule. That is fine: as long as they are open about it. When state commemorations are set up in such a way as to dishonour the generation that won our freedom they are not fine.

Kermit.de.frog

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Yeah, it is going a bit far. They had to be taken on or freedom could not be achieved. As severe as it sounds the truth is that they deserved to be killed.

No one deserves to be killed for either their political beliefs or simply doing their job.


No one.

Kermit.de.frog

KWAG2019 wrote: »

There are people in the 26 counties today who wish us to rejoin the British Commonwealth. Who wish us to be a satellite of Britain tied by some sort of federal solution akin to Home Rule. That is fine: as long as they are open about it. When state commemorations are set up in such a way as to dishonour the generation that won our freedom they are not fine.

Who is calling for any of this?

corner of hells

KWAG2019 wrote: »

There is so much objectionable, nonsensical and offensive about this commemoration that it is hard to know where to start.

The RIC/DMP were agents of British colonial control and oppression in Ireland. There is no reason to commemorate that or its agents.

What has happened now is that there is a version of "inclusivity" used to promote absurdities like this commemoration. These men may like many others who served in Brit forces have had all sorts of reasons for doing so but those are all irrelevant in the commemoration of the War of Independence. That commemoration should be of those who fought and died for our freedom, not those who opposed it. By resurrecting the division of 100 years ago the govt has been divisive and provocative. The HARP group of those who promote the memory of RIC/DMP may see this as a win for them but they have re-opened old wounds. It reflects nothing on anybody today that they had a relative in DMP/RIC or British forces upholding colonial oppression here. By creating a commemoration that seeks to honour and remember those who fought against our freedom the State is showing the absurd lack of confidence which has bedevilled it in recent years.

There is also an absurd idea that by doing this you are advancing unity. There is a profound naivete and innocence about dealing with Unionists/loyalists and that obsequiousness like this make us more attractive to them. You don't negotiate in advance of negotiations and you don't declare your hand unless you've already surrendered.

And let's be very clear: there is an agenda of undermining our status as an independent sovereign republic. When the Minister of Justice refers to the killing of RIC/DMP as "murder" he denies that the War of Independence was a struggle for our freedom. He is implicitly upholding the imposition of British colonialism by force by that force. When John Bruton refers to the highlight of his time as Taoiseach as meeting the Prince of Wales you begin to get a sense of something. There are people in the 26 counties today who wish us to rejoin the British Commonwealth. Who wish us to be a satellite of Britain tied by some sort of federal solution akin to Home Rule. That is fine: as long as they are open about it. When state commemorations are set up in such a way as to dishonour the generation that won our freedom they are not fine.

How many would like to rejoin the commonwealth?

I've heard of the reform group and found this article.

"Sinn Féin leader Mary Lou McDonald told TheJournal.ie last year that rejoining the Commonwealth was something that could be discussed as part of discussions on a united Ireland.

McDonald said on Tuesday that it was not something she was personally in favour of while Taoiseach Leo Varadkar said it was “not something that’s on the agenda”.

TheValeyard

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

No one deserves to be killed for either their political beliefs or simply doing their job.


No one.

Well........... Maybe Stalin, Mao, or the guy who came up with the idea of dance music

FTA69

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

No one deserves to be killed for either their political beliefs or simply doing their job.


No one.

There was a war on. On one side were the forces of liberation and on the other side was a paramilitary police force paid by a foreign power in order to keep us a subjugated colony. They were collaborators in the same vein as Algerians or Vietnamese who fought with the French; people like them were to be found in every colony across the world.

A loss of life in any context is a tragedy but there was a right and a wrong side in some conflicts; those who turned on their own people to aid British imperialism were on the wrong side. The Black and Tan mercenaries who fought alongside them were also on the wrong side.

minikin

TheValeyard wrote: »

From what I understood, It does not remember Stasi/ SS but rather their victims. I do see why they remember the soldiers of the wehrmacht though.

I’d imagine all means all.

spurious

If it throws light on the cartoonish version of history some commenting here seem to have been given, it's great news.

There was savagery all round.

Hamsterchops

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

They had to be taken on or freedom could not be achieved. As severe as it sounds the truth is that they deserved to be killed.

Indeed myth has it that Countess Markievicz dispatched one of those "that deserved to be killed" by shooting him in the head in Stephens Green. Apparently this constable on foot tried to usher the Fenians out of the park so she shot him dead, for this she's a hero and he's almost forgotten.....

FTA69

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Indeed myth has it that Countess Markievicz dispatched one of those "that deserved to be killed" by shooting him in the head in Stephens Green. Apparently this constable on foot tried to usher the Fenians out of the park so she shot him dead, for this she's a hero and he's almost forgotten.....

Fair play to her.

corner of hells

FTA69 wrote: »

Fair play to her.

Yup , bearing in mind the DMP were largely unarmed.

KWAG2019

This proposal is a divisive insult to those who wish to honour those who fought for our freedom. The govt will attempt to control local groups through grants as usual. Their view of history is a denial of reality and an attempt to smuggle unionism into currency on the back of revisionism and condescension. I will attend no govt commemorations and I will donate to local groups who wish to ignore this insult.

Hamsterchops

FTA69 wrote: »

Fair play to her.

He was an unarmed police constable with a family.

corner of hells

KWAG2019 wrote: »

This proposal is a divisive insult to those who wish to honour those who fought for our freedom. The govt will attempt to control local groups through grants as usual. Their view of history is a denial of reality and an attempt to smuggle unionism into currency on the back of revisionism and condescension. I will attend no govt commemorations and I will donate to local groups who wish to ignore this insult.

If the local group is a registered charity and you donate 250euros , you'll be able to claim tax relief.
Though you'd have to interact with the government.

KWAG2019

corner of hells wrote: »

If the local group is a registered charity and you donate 250euros , you'll be able to claim tax relief.
Though you'd have to interact with the government.

Everyone does. Especially at election time.

Dyr

corner of hells wrote: »

Yup , bearing in mind the DMP were largely unarmed.

Unlike the RIC who were armed like a militia in their *checks notes* ..yep..in their barracks.

Although some would have you think they went about their business of keeping the locals in check with only feather dusters and a cheery smile

saabsaab

I believe that a UI is around the corner and many 'Loyalists' see this too.



Although RIC and DMP ended up on the wrong side in 1919-1921 most were at the time ordinary policemen caught up in it and trying to do a job. Several were unhappy with the way the force was used to subjugate the Irish people and worked often in secret for the rebels. A relation of mine was in the DMP but died in the first world war.



Don't confuse them with the 'Black and Tans' or 'Auxiliaries' specifically recruited to put down the rebellion they are a different group.

KWAG2019

The generation who knew the RIC/DMP best was the generation that fought them, killed them and broke them. That is the only verdict that matters. It would be great if we had a government proud enough of our own country to let it stand.

Dyr

saabsaab wrote: »

I believe that a UI is around the corner and many 'Loyalists' see this too.



Although RIC and DMP ended up on the wrong side in 1919-1921 most were at the time ordinary policemen caught up in it and trying to do a job. Several were unhappy with the way the force was used to subjugate the Irish people and worked often in secret for the rebels. A relation of mine was in the DMP but died in the first world war.



Don't confuse them with the 'Black and Tans' or 'Auxiliaries' specifically recruited to put down the rebellion they are a different group.

Don'r confuse them? Were you down the back sniffing glue in history class along with the rest of the larries parading around here spouting nonsense about the RIC just local bobbies on the beat?

You realise the Black and Tans were actually called the Royal Irish Constabulary Special Reserve and the Auxies were the The Auxiliary Division of the Royal Irish Constabulary

They were the RIC and the RIC got what was a long time coming to them in the War of Independance.

FTA69

More revisionist rubbish. As someone said above, the RIC worked hand in hand with the Black and Tans and served alongside them in their barracks.

corner of hells

Bambi wrote: »

Don'r confuse them? Were you down the back sniffing glue in history class along with the rest of the larries parading around here spouting nonsense about the RIC just local bobbies on the beat?

You realise the Black and Tans were actually called the Royal Irish Constabulary Special Reserve and the Auxies were the The Auxiliary Division of the Royal Irish Constabulary

They were the RIC and the RIC got what was a long time coming to them in the War of Independance.

You'd want to see the memorial stone left in memory of the RIC men in my family.

saabsaab

Bambi wrote: »

Don'r confuse them? Were you down the back sniffing glue in history class along with the rest of the larries parading around here spouting nonsense about the RIC just local bobbies on the beat?

You realise the Black and Tans were actually called the Royal Irish Constabulary Special Reserve and the Auxies were the The Auxiliary Division of the Royal Irish Constabulary

They were the RIC and the RIC got what was a long time coming to them in the War of Independance.

Yes I am aware of that but they were acting largely independently of the main RIC. What about those who worked for the rebels at great risk?

spurious

FTA69 wrote: »

More revisionist rubbish. As someone said above, the RIC worked hand in hand with the Black and Tans and served alongside them in their barracks.

And many RIC resigned when the Tans were introduced.
And there were hundreds of letters of complaint sent by serving RIC men as to what was going on with the Tans.

The whole story, not just part of it. As I said, cartoonish versions.

saabsaab

There was a story of a commanding officer instructing RIC men in Cork to shoot first and ask questions later. One RIC man stood out of the parade and said 'you forget you are talking to irishmen' When an order was given to arrest that man not one moved.

KWAG2019

spurious wrote: »

And many RIC resigned when the Tans were introduced.
And there were hundreds of letters of complaint sent by serving RIC men as to what was going on with the Tans.

The whole story, not just part of it. As I said, cartoonish versions.

Many resigned under pressure from their community and IRA action. We should honour their resignation not their service. Those who continued to serve chose to attempt to continue British colonialism in Ireland by force.

Dyr

saabsaab wrote: »

There was a story of a commanding officer instructing RIC men in Cork to shoot first and ask questions later. One RIC man stood out of the parade and said 'you forget you are talking to irishmen' When an order was given to arrest that man not one moved.

It was more than one RIC man who walked out of that briefing, the infamous "the more you shoot the more I'll like you " speech by a Colonel Smyth

saabsaab

KWAG2019 wrote: »

Many resigned under pressure from their community and IRA action. We should honour their resignation not their service. Those who continued to serve chose to attempt to continue British colonialism in Ireland by force.

That is true too, however it shows that they largely were part of their community apart from some die hards. Sometimes people end up on the wrong side of history.