RIC and DMP to be commemorated this month

Hoboo

Hoboo wrote: »

From the Oireachtas page.....

A petition is only admissable if it;

"does not contain the name or names of individuals".

How does that work?

I presume that's to cover trolls starting things like "Petition to make the poster Hoboo change his Boards avatar to a poo emoji" or whatever.

golfball37 wrote: »

Micheal Martin showing he is not fit for the highest office over his non position on this. Saying he didn't get an invite when scores of opposition TDs have gotten one is pathetic. Using this as an excuse to not take a position is also troubling.

Yep, hedging his bets to see which way the wind blows, so he can swoop in and claim he was always [insert popular opinion here]......the media are as complicit in all this: "So, you didn't get an invite?......Will you attend when your invite does eventually turn up?"...........

Diamond Joe Quimby eat your heart out.

Nift

FrancieBrady wrote: »

We 'manage' referendums very well in comparison to the ****show Brexit was.

How is the whole 'RIC' thing part of 'it'?

A majority after a properly run referendum were all opinions are transparent and properly aired, debated and tested is a perfectly adequate expression of democracy.

Brexit has nothing to do with us "managing" better. Its an expression of a majority of English (stupid or not) people beliving in nationalism. Shock horror, de English can be nationalists too. Its no more stupid than believing that a United Ireland will be a Catholic, green, Republic with a few orange prods tacked on. The common rebuttal...is but the flag has orange in it..thats the sum of their compromise.

How can you not see the relevance of it? In a United Ireland do you not think these factors become a live issue. the Battle of the Boyne, the signing of the covenant. Abhorrent to Irish Nationalists. Sacred to Irish Unionists. The police itself will be an issue. Do the PSNI become gardai? Probably not.

I mean even typing those things (i mean many Republicans would rather no UI than doing those things) and then seeing how you cannot put yourself into a position to imagine the compromises needed is just evidence many people aren't ready for a UI.

I agree with your last point. Thats true. But it doesn't mean the afters won't be a **** show.

And edit to say the Unionists won't compromise either, which sort of makes these token gestures pointless. Its so deeply ingrained its unworkable.

Nift

Nift wrote: »

I mean even typing those things (i mean many Republicans would rather no UI than doing those things) and then seeing how you cannot put yourself into a position to imagine the compromises needed is just evidence many people aren't ready for a UI.

Put the shoe on the other foot.........we'll commemorate the RIC when Arlene commemorates the poor IRA lads lost to the troubles.

Billcarson

So the Gov want to basically make a point about Irish maturity on the subject and moving forward etc etc. Still ridiculous though having the commemoration

Reminds me of De valera trying to make the point about Irish neutrality when he gave his condolences to the germans on the death of Hitler .
To me both are as ridiculous as each other.

markodaly

jmcc wrote: »

Trying to save face? The Irish people did not vote on the Act of Union. The vast majority of Irish people were disenfranchised.

Regards...jmcc

All parliaments of the time were the same to be honest.

Zebra3

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I also think it the this protests are a good opportunity for Sinn Fein to hide behind,

If you look at Sinn Fein's aims from thier website -

https://www.sinnfein.ie/what-sinn-fein-stands-for

United Ireland

"Sinn F is a 32-County party striving for an end to partition on the island of Ireland and the establishment of a democratic socialist republic."

= failed


(have never brought the Unionists onside nor will they as evidenced by thier attitude to the DMP and RIC memorials)



Accountability and governance

"We oppose the politics of cronyism, sectarianism and exclusion which has been at the heart of political culture North and South in the past and the present"

= failed

(They have never looked close to even getting in opposition in the Dail, got hammered in the last election.
They have played childish games up North for years while not governing in Stormont)

---

So it is much easier for SF to play the Republican card now as it will play well with the grassroots and distract them from their real issues/failings.

The other parties/individuals who jumped on this protest against the DMP/RIC memorial are only playing for votes from the simple minded.

SF don't need to bring unionists on side.

The apartheid style voting system that the unionists loved is long since gone.

Demographic changes and higher standard of living in the south will bring about a UI.

There is no unionist veto any more.

SF are in opposition in DE. Your lack of understanding of politics is plain embarrassing.

And issues over Stormont are because of unionist opposition to an ILA and their corruption over the cash for ash scandal.

Hoboo

Sean.3516 wrote: »

Genuinely sorry for not using the capital “C” for Catholic. Normally I’m the grammar nazi.

Also I would bet that I’m more historically knowledgeable than yourself.



So unionists have a monopoly on the word “Fenian”? Didn’t know that. I also didn’t know that it was a term of derision only used by Unionists against Republicans.

Didn’t the Republicans call themselves “The Fenian Brotherhood” for a while?

And some people within black communities and groups call each other "nigga".

It's not the word, it's who's saying it and how it's being said.

Nift

Deleted User wrote: »

Put the shoe on the other foot.........we'll commemorate the RIC when Arlene commemorates the poor IRA lads lost to the troubles.

Yeah i agree in a way thats why i don't think it will happen.

Like the Unionists won't compromise either. Neither side will yield.

It's clear to see that this RIC malarky is part of the softly softly approach. Its not some sinister west brit plan to rejoin the commonwealth.

Neither side can envisage living in the others shoes. Hence we still have 70 foot high walls separating communities in Belfast.

Sean.3516

Zebra3 wrote: »

750,000 Palestinians were forced from their homes by Zionist terrorists.

Hundreds of Palestinian towns and villages were destroyed or taken over by foreign colonialists.

Woah okay, now you’re jumping ahead to 1948 when Britain had left and the first Arab-Israeli War was happening.

I was talking about the early Jewish immigration to Palestine in the late 1800s and and early 1900s.

The point was that you were saying that Britain had screwed over the Arabs by selling them out to the Jews. My point is that the Jews had been migrating to Palestine and buying land decades before the British took over the mandate. Once they were in charge they pursued the best policy of a two state solution. The expulsion of Arabs took place in 1948 after the British left and wouldn’t have happened had the Arabs accepted the UN Partition Plan.

Zebra3 wrote: »

And my point about 1914 was that going to fight for your occupier was a stupid thing to do.

You make it sound like it was no big deal.

Again with the occupation thing. Ireland was not under an occupation.

I’m not saying it wasn’t a big deal. I’m saying it wasn’t a bad deal all things considered. Helping fight WWI in exchange for Home Rule compared with fighting the War of Independence instead wouldn’t have been a bad deal.

FrancieBrady

Nift wrote: »

Brexit has nothing to do with us "managing" better. Its an expression of a majority of English (stupid or not) people beliving in nationalism. Shock horror, de English can be nationalists too. Its no more stupid than believing that a United Ireland will be a Catholic, green, Republic with a few orange prods tacked on. The common rebuttal...is but the flag has orange in it..

What???

Who believes a UI will be a 'Catholic, green, Republic with a few Orange Prods tacked on' only the likes of the late Willie Frazer and other scaremongering belligerent Unionists?

How can you not see the relevance of it? In a United Ireland do you not think these factors become a live issue. the Battle of the Boyne, the signing of the covenant. Abhorrent to Irish Nationalists. Sacred to Irish Unionists.

I mean even typing those things (i mean many Republicans would rather no UI than doing those things) and then seeing how you cannot put yourself into a position to imagine the compromises needed is just evidence many people aren't ready for a UI.

I agree with your last point. Thats true. But it doesn't mean the afters won't be a **** show.

How many republicans need to say that they have no problem whatsoever with Unionists celebrating the 12th and their culture before this oft quoted mistruth dies?

A UI needs to be honest, not some hat doffing place that appeases a Unionist's version of what happened.

Zebra3

Sean.3516 wrote: »

Woah okay, now you’re jumping ahead to 1948 when Britain had left and the first Arab-Israeli War was happening.

I was talking about the early Jewish immigration to Palestine in the late 1800s and and early 1900s.

The point was that you were saying that Britain had screwed over the Arabs by selling them out to the Jews. My point is that the Jews had been migrating to Palestine and buying land decades before the British took over the mandate. Once they were in charge they pursued the best policy of a two state solution. The expulsion of Arabs took place in 1948 after the British left and wouldn’t have happened had the Arabs accepted the UN Partition Plan.



Again with the occupation thing. Ireland was not under an occupation.

I’m not saying it wasn’t a big deal. I’m saying it wasn’t a bad deal all things considered. Helping fight WWI in exchange for Home Rule compared with fighting the War of Independence instead wouldn’t have been a bad deal.

Britain promised European jews Palestinian land. Something they had no right to do. The fact that jews bought some land in Palestine is irrelevant. If enough Poles buy land in Ireland, are they entitled to their own state here?

Irish people fought and died in WWI in large numbers for something that was already due to them. Wow.

Sean.3516

jmcc wrote: »

Garrison towns and a paramilitary force (RIC) keeping order are the facts that blow your fantasy out of the water.

The RIC was not a “paramilitary”. They were the police. They’re presence in the country doesn’t constitute a military occupation. Their misbehaviour at certain times makes absolutely no difference in this.

jmcc wrote: »

So not only are you ignorant of history and geography, you are illiterate as well? Ireland was still Ireland and even the formal titles for the British government posts in Ireland reflected that.

My point Ireland wasn’t a separate nation state. Of course Ireland was a separate country. Scotland and Wales were separate countries. But they were all part of the same nation state which was Great Britain.

jmcc

Nift wrote: »

Brexit has nothing to do with us "managing" better. Its an expression of a majority of English (stupid or not) people beliving in nationalism.

So your cluelessness is without borders. How very progressive. The majority in the UK voted to leave the EU. When the majority of the Irish people voted for Ireland to leave another union, Ireland was subjected to acts of terror against the civilian population by the RIC, the Black and Tans and the Auxiliaries, and a war. But you and others want to celebrate the perpetrators of these war crimes and acts of terror (you are on the same side as John Bruton who said that the Black and Tans should be commemorated).

Regards...jmcc

ricero

Expect a huge backlash in the up coming general election because of this on top of many other reasons.

Varadkar and Fine Gaels ignorance and arrogance have left an open goal for Finna fail return.

Zebra3

Sean.3516 wrote: »

The RIC was not a “paramilitary”. They were the police. They’re presence in the country doesn’t constitute a military occupation. Their misbehaviour at certain times makes absolutely no difference in this.

Misbehaviour?

Burning down cities?

Raping women?

Murdering people by exploding grenades in their mouths?

Helping to evict starving people?

Torture?

That's what decent people refer to as crimes.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

gormdubhgorm

Zebra3 wrote: »

SF don't need to bring unionists on side.

The apartheid style voting system that the unionists loved is long since gone.

Demographic changes and higher standard of living in the south will bring about a UI.

There is no unionist veto any more.

SF are in opposition in DE. Your lack of understanding of politics is plain embarrassing.

And issues over Stormont are because of unionist opposition to an ILA and their corruption over the cash for ash scandal.

Corruption you only said. You conveniently left out that SF are claiming they want an Irish language act it is a game.
How much Irish does Michelle O'Neill or Mary Lou have?
Come on man you can not be that brainwashed?
It is window dressing.

SF are supposed to be in a power sharing arrangement but are playing games with the Unionists. As the Unionists are playing games with them.
For SF to be critical of corruption is a bit rich as well if you really think about it.
Given thier history and how they deal with 'issues internally' Denis Donaldson etc

SF are not a true opposition in the Dail they are only a quasi technical opposition as you know well, the hurlers in the ditch.
They can mention all thier 'out there' economic policies which they will never have to implement anytime soon in the ROI.
A real opposition in the Dail would have decent numbers. Independents in the Dail have more clout than SF.


Of course Sinn Fein do need to bring the Unionists on side because as another poster as rightly mentioned - this 50 plus one idea is a fantasy. It will not bring peace.
If you do not bring the majority of Unionsts on side it is nothing more than tiocfaidh ar la la land. Fantasy stuff.
Plus how is the Irish State going to pay for a UI the British pump Billions into it.
Practicalities should be spoken about not mtyhology.

Sinn Fein are now caught between a rock and hard place.
Trying to pander to hardliners old school republicans while trying to appear open and progressive. That has shown in the elections in the Dail and it has shown in thier antics in Sormont.

The Unionists in NI will be looking at the ROI and the reaction to this commemoration of DMP/RIC and what do you think they will think?

Yet the Queen of England has shook McGuinness's hand and even some Unionists have attended GAA matches.
But McGunness is seen by a traitor by the hardliners where the Republican willingness to compromise in 2020? It is not 1920 anymore.

armaghlad

ricero wrote: »

Expect a huge backlash in the up coming general election because of this on top of many other reasons.

Varadkar and Fine Gaels ignorance and arrogance have left an open goal for Finna fail return.

Nothing surprises me when it comes to FG and this type of west-brittery. Absolutely pathetic and hopefully they get it in the GE

weldoninhio

Nift wrote: »

Where did i say any of that? I'm saying that's where the idea of a "mature" position comes from. It has nothing to do with Fine Gael or anything. A common refrain on here or the journal is...phuck them the orange prods and send them back to Scotland/UK. Its a moronic line of thinking that must be called out every time. Sinn Fein themselves have talked of the changes needed if we do ever re-unite. New flag, anthem, federalism, capitals. Commemorations 100 per cent will come into it as well. this whole debacle has highlighted how unready we are for any border poll.

It needs to be very carefully managed. The whole RIC thing is part of it, rightly or wrongly.

Personally i don't think there will be a United Ireland in the next 50 years at least. You can see the reasons all over here, reddit, the journal. Or if it did happen, there would be guaranteed bloodshed.

You have to laugh at the misty eyed romantic Republicanism. When it comes face to face with reality there will be tears.

As we see with Brexit, a 50 plus one majority may be democratic but its not necessarily good for democracy.

What have orangemen got to do with the RIC?

gormdubhgorm

ricero wrote: »

Expect a huge backlash in the up coming general election because of this on top of many other reasons.

Varadkar and Fine Gaels ignorance and arrogance have left an open goal for Finna fail return.

I doubt this single issue will bring back Fianna Fail, maybe if they countered it with a 1970's style 'arms crisis' they could claim to be the Republican Party again?

Scoundrel

ricero wrote: »

Expect a huge backlash in the up coming general election because of this on top of many other reasons.

Varadkar and Fine Gaels ignorance and arrogance have left an open goal for Finna fail return.

Yeah I'd say FF can't quite believe how stupid FG have been in this whole affair how did no one in any of these planning meetings just say "lads this isn't going to go down well" like what planet do these blueshirts live on? It reminds me of the Love Ulster affair all over again.

ChikiChiki

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I doubt this single issue will bring back Fianna Fail, maybe if they countered it with a 1970's style 'arms crisis' they could claim to be the Republican Party again?

Have you been hiding under a rock? Fianna Fail are level in the polls with FG. They are essentially back from the cesspit they somehow crawled out of.

FG gifted them the comeback when they should really have been consigned to the dustbins of history.

is_that_so

ricero wrote: »

Expect a huge backlash in the up coming general election because of this on top of many other reasons.

Varadkar and Fine Gaels ignorance and arrogance have left an open goal for Finna fail return.

Do you really think anyone outside of those seemingly affronted by it cares? If anything they'll get it in the next for housing or health but not some obscure commemoration.

Here's a reflective piece on this question of commemoration.

https://www.rte.ie/brainstorm/2020/0107/1104764-why-commemorating-the-enemy-is-so-contentious/

tayto lover

ricero wrote: »

Expect a huge backlash in the up coming general election because of this on top of many other reasons.

Varadkar and Fine Gaels ignorance and arrogance have left an open goal for Finna fail return.

Is as if the last thing they wanted was to be re-elected.

gormdubhgorm

ChikiChiki wrote: »

Have you been hiding under a rock? Fianna Fail are level in the polls with FG. They are essentially back from the cesspit they somehow crawled out of.

FG gifted them the comeback when they should really have been consigned to the dustbins of history.

I never am one to trust polls. Whoever gets the deal with Greens gets in.
The Greens will be the power brokers.

golfball37

ricero wrote: »

Expect a huge backlash in the up coming general election because of this on top of many other reasons.

Varadkar and Fine Gaels ignorance and arrogance have left an open goal for Finna fail return.

Why so? I despise Varadkar and co but at least he has taken a position on this. The FF leader has not which shows a distinct inability to lead a country.

The Nal

Nift wrote: »

It's clear to see that this RIC malarky is part of the softly softly approach. Its not some sinister west brit plan to rejoin the commonwealth.

Indeed. Amazed how people can't see it.

A tester in the initial steps for a United Ireland. Equal parts admirable, brave and extremely naive from FG.

Think we've got our answer. It'll be a while yet lads. Maybe not in any of our lifetimes.

FrancieBrady

is_that_so wrote: »

Do you really think anyone outside of those seemingly affronted by it cares? If anything they'll get it in the next for housing or health but not some obscure commemoration.

Here's a reflective piece on this question of commemoration.

https://www.rte.ie/brainstorm/2020/0107/1104764-why-commemorating-the-enemy-is-so-contentious/

FG are so out of touch on this decade of centenaries that they ignored the fact that many many people DO CARE about how it is treated and care about the future of this island.

They have already had to embarrassingly take down a video they produced on 1916. Will their arrogance ever abate...doesn't seem so.

JupiterKid

I do understand the need to recognise the the complex role that men in the RIC and DMP played in the years of this country pre-Independence, and also the need to accommodate the unionist perspective if we really want re-unification of this island in the medium to long-term...

...but this "commemoration" is simply is a step too far and the Govt will pay the price for this - amongst their many, many abject policy failures in housing, health and rural Ireland to name but a few - in the forthcoming GE.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

FG are so out of touch on this decade of centenaries that they ignored the fact that many many people DO CARE about how it is treated and care about the future of this island.

They have already had to embarrassingly take down a video they produced on 1916. Will their arrogance ever abate...doesn't seem so.

So the centenaries should only cover the Republican angle?
That drum has being beaten for hundreds of years now while others are written out of history.

The Republicans treated as heroes martyrs the RIC/DMP remaining faceless and nameless. All just refereed to as British forces. Or erroneously as the Tans.

How is that conducive to a reconciliation of traditions, and a future peaceful UI?

Billcarson

JupiterKid wrote: »

I do understand the need to recognise the the complex role that men in the RIC and DMP played in the years of this country pre-Independence, and also the need to accommodate the unisonist perspective if we really want re-unification of this island in the medium to long-term...

...but this "commemoration" is simply is a step too far and the Govt will pay the price for this - amongst their many, many abject policy failures in housing, health and rural Ireland to name but a few - in the forthcoming GE.

Sums it up perfectly ðŸ‘