RIC and DMP to be commemorated this month

McMurphy

A few of the independent ministers now saying they're boycotting it too.

Finnian McGrath
Boxer Moran
Sean Canney.

This is a clusterfcuk for Charlie and the boys.

The high horse brigade

Sean.3516 wrote: »

We’re arguing past each other when we resort to indignation.

I didn’t use the word misbehaviour specifically to downplay things the RIC did. I’ve never denied that they’ve done the things you listed.

Maybe focus on the point I was actually making which is that Ireland was not under a military occupation. I’m going by the actual definition of what a military occupation is as opposed to the hyperbolic, broad and emotionally charged definition that people on here are using.

People are conveniently ignoring the fact that words have definitions.

A military occupation is “effective provisional control by a certain ruling power over a territory, which is not under the formal sovereignty of that entity.”

NOT UNDER THE FORMAL SOVEREIGNTY OF THAT ENTITY. Ireland was under the formal sovereignty of that entity since the Act of Union in 1801. Therefore we were not living under an occupation.

Now this by itself doesn’t mean that there weren’t legitimate reasons for a rebellion. But being “under occupation” isn’t one of them.

Ignored, troll is obvious

gormdubhgorm

buried wrote: »

Yeah I know exactly what you are saying, they were caught up supporting a regime that deemed it acceptable to shoot multiple rounds of machine gun fire into a crowd of innocent people. That is the actual reality and the actual history. Just because you don't want to acknowledge it, well, that's on you.

That is a misconception the British did not deem it 'acceptable' to shot innocent people.

When the British approached Croke Park the IRA Volunteers did not fire at them. But warning shots were fired in the air by the IRA this caused a panic and a stampee all around CP.

That first British raiding party was composed of hyped up temporary cadets who were not following orders when they opened fire on the crowd.

Major Mills thier commanding officer got them back, under control. But after 3 minutes the damage was done.

The whole idea of the raid on Croke Park was to get the crowd to file out so they could search them for weapons. Not to go in shooting like mad eejits.

There was a subsequent attempt by Dublin Castle to falsely claim they were fired on by the IRA. But this was never proven.

You should read this book -

THE BLOODIED FIELD
Croke Park. Sunday 21 November 1920
By Michael Foley

It covers all the individuals involved in detail not just the Republican side or even both forces, but the civilians as well.

Calhoun

McMurphy wrote: »

A few of the independent ministers now saying they're boycotting it too.

Finnian McGrath
Boxer Moran
Sean Canney.

This is a clusterfcuk for Charlie and the boys.

I don't understand how stupid they can be so close to an election.

Sean.3516

marieholmfan wrote: »

Weird that someone should be both pro RIC and pro Israel in this country - both non normative opinions.

Does boards.ie have a xenophobic undercurrent?

I’m not complaining. It’s kind of hilarious really. I was once accused of being an American because I used the word MOM in a post once.

Now I’m a foreigner because I hold a minority opinion.

J Mysterio

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

That is a misconception the British did not deem it 'acceptable' to shot innocent people.

When the British approached Croke Park the IRA Volunteers did not fire at them. But warning shots were fired in the air by the IRA this caused a panic and a stampee all around CP.

That first British raiding party was composed of hyped up temporary cadets who were not following orders when they opened fire on the crowd.

Major Mills thier commanding officer got them back, under control. But after 3 minutes the damage was done.

The whole idea of the raid on Croke Park was to get the crowd to file out so they could search them for weapons. Not to go in shooting like mad eejits.

There was a subsequent attempt by Dublin Castle to falsely claim they were fired on by the IRA. But this was never proven.

You should read this book -

THE BLOODIED FIELD
Croke Park. Sunday 21 November 1920
By Michael Foley

It covers all the individuals involved in detail not just the Republican side or even both forces, but the civilians as well.

Wow. Now you are justifying that. Incredible.

Dyr

Nift wrote: »

Sure and good luck with that.

It's not.

Would be great if life was so simple. Brexit is a prime example of how complicated the democratic process can be.

The democratic process is relatively straightforward. The ramifications are not. The GFA made clear that a border poll would be decided via simple majority in both jurisdictions , as is normal with referenda. Obviously if you're a committed partitionist that's a problem but partition no longer has a screed of credibility if those referenda are passed.

Sean.3516

The high horse brigade wrote: »

Ignored, troll is obvious

Trolling? Really?

Because you can’t bear to hear a view on history that you’re not used to hearing.

gormdubhgorm

Hamsterchops wrote: »

... but that was said in the context of the time (1983). Hopefully "an agreed" Ireland would be a peaceful and economically viable country.

1993 when the British government and Irish government were in talks.
It is a fantasy land to believe it will be a peaceful country, if the Unionists are not made feel part of any UI.
The reaction to the idea of this memorial to the RIC/DMP shows the true colours of people.

Junkyard Tom

I don't think people realise that when they say 'but they were Irishmen' when referring to the RIC it makes what they did worse.

buried

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

That is a misconception the British did not deem it 'acceptable' to shot innocent people.

Hold on a minute g, if the British authorities did not in fact deem this atrocity to be acceptable, as you claim, then who within the ranks of this gang were arrested or a court martial held for it?


I'll tell you shall I?

Nobody.

A murderous disgrace on par with the worst terrorist filth this planet has ever spewn.

gormdubhgorm

J Mysterio wrote: »

Wow. Now you are justifying that. Incredible.

I did not justify it I merely stated well established and researched facts.
You seem to be of the mindset that history is like a fantasy film good v evil.
Bad guys v Good guys
Nothing could be further from the truth.

James Brown

This event hosted by Leo Varadkar K.B.E. is like the Germans hosting a commemoration for the Stasi.
He should just burn the flag and replace the word Irish with British in all government documents and be done with it.
It's Tory apologist scutter.

banie01

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What you are seeing is an honest distaste for what is proposed. There are memes doing the rounds of the queen commemorating the IRA, they are funny because it would be inconceivable that she would do that and not even expected.

100% Agreed.
The "Forces of the crown" in this particular context is quite appropriate.

Leo has waffled on regarding our celebrating Irish Soldiers who served in the 1st and 2nd world wars as a precedent for our doing the same with the RIC/DMP.

It is absolutely not analogous and his attempt to paint it as such needs to be called out.

In WW1 Ireland was still a constituent part of the U.K, even though there was a rising nationaistl sentiment.
Employment in an Agrarian economy was hard to find and British Army recruitment success can be seen in the sheer number of "Garrison" towns in Ireland.

WW1 at its commencement, was seen and indeed presented as a matter of honour.
The German aggressor had flaunted Belgian neutrality and commited atrocities including bayoneting Nurses and Prisoners.

Many Irish enlisted to fight the evil actions that were portrayed to them via Empire news.
Many fought in the hope that their "loyal" service would speed the implementation of Home Rule.

You would be very hard pressed to find any Irish that signed up in WW1 to ensure the continued oppression of their compatriots at home.

In WW2, again economics played a large part in the numbers of Irish that both served in UK forces and worked in UK War industry.
And again, I think one would be hard pressed to find Irishmen that served in UK forces with the intent to return to Ireland and commit oppressive action or atrocity.

The RIC/DMP were not an organ of the Irish State. They were a paramilitary, gendarmerie.
A force whose primary purpose was the maintenance of UK primacy in Ireland and enforcement of Anglo-Hiberno laws and in particular the primacy of UK based or financed landlords and industrialists.

It was a force that is responsible for actions that to this day still rise the hackles.

People have spoken in this thread about being descendants of people who served in those forces.
Many of us are, I am myself.

I have RIC and IRB members on both sides of my family.
I acknowledge that, I remember that as being part of what brought me here.
But I'm not going to ask the state to celebrate my Great Grandfather that swung a ram, that assisted in killing O'Callaghan and Clancy and many other actions across North Munster.

Asking Irish People to commemorate those forces is akin to asking the Vietnamese to commemorate the Colonial Police.
The Congolese to memorialize the Force Publiqué.
The Israelis to memorialize the concentration camp Kapos and ghetto mayor's!

It is a disgusting capitulation to political correctness that is a step too far IMO.

Truth, yes.
Reconciliation, yes
Rebuilding relationships, certainly.

But not at the expense of our national dignity.

gormdubhgorm

buried wrote: »

Hold on a minute g, if the British authorities did not in fact deem this atrocity to be acceptable, as you claim, then who within the ranks of this gang were arrested or a court martial held for it?


I'll tell you shall I?

Nobody.

A murderous disgrace on par with the worst terrorist filth this planet has ever spewn.

You could say the same for any atrocity committed where where the actual perpetrators were not brought to justice. Ireland has a long history of that on both sides of the divide. Even in more recent times.

Nift

Bambi wrote: »

The democratic process is relatively straightforward. The ramifications are not. The GFA made clear that a border poll would be decided via simple majority in both jurisdictions , as is normal with referenda. Obviously if you're a committed partitionist that's a problem but partition no longer has a screed of credibility if those referenda are passed.

The democratic process is not relatively straightforward at all. A cursory glance at America, Britain, Spain, Italy, Belgium, Northern Ireland and tons of other places would be enough to see that this is a glib statement, and soon Ireland when people will be decrying de corruption that returns a FG government.

I'm aware what the GFA stated, in return for peace. We are now seeing some ramifications on the border for that agreement with the "lads" and the backtracking now with more garda presence.. I don't think there is many committed partionists in the South, just realists and people who can look at the situation objectively and with honesty. In theory its a 50 plus one majority, in practical terms this will be chaos. Fine Gael know it, SF know it. I mean Michael Martin knows it as well hence his silence on this.

If we can't have a conversation without Charlie Flanagan being labeled a tan we haven't a hope about a UI. Its amazing people can't join the dots here.

Just scrap the whole thing now its pointless.

the RIC did do many a bad thing, particularly in the tithe wars and evictions etc. i think everyone can agree there. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Irish_Constabulary

Fann Linn

Mayor of Roscommon has now pulled out. Delighted.

Feisar

buried wrote: »

self loathing current government

To be fair that self loathing isn't strictly the under the remit of our government. Loads of people view any form of Irish nationalism with disdain.

buried

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

You could say the same for any atrocity committed where where the actual perpetrators were not brought to justice. Ireland has a long history of that on both sides of the divide. Even in more recent times.

Not talking about any of that though am I?

You claimed the atrocity was not acceptable by the British authorities.

The fact they never arrested any member of the RIC or their murderous cadres for the atrocity literally proves they did deem it acceptable.

Don't ever lecture to me what books to read either.

FrancieBrady

Nift wrote: »

The democratic process is not relatively straightforward at all. A cursory glance at America, Britain, Spain, Italy and tons of other places would be enough to see that this is a glib statement, and soon Ireland.

I'm aware what the GFA stated, in return for peace. We are now seeing some ramifications on the border for that agreement with the "lads" and the backtracking now with more garda presence.. I don't think there is many committed partionists in the South, just realists and people who can look at the situation objectively and with honesty. In theory its a 50 plus one majority, in practical terms this will be chaos. Fine Gael know it, SF know it. I mean Michael Martin knows it as well hence his silence on this.

And if the vote of 50+1 is denied and the GFA ignored? What then?

Which path do you take...the democratically decided one that was agreed or the one where you rip up that agreement because it doesn't suit a minority?

Nift

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And if the vote of 50+1 is denied and the GFA ignored? What then?

Which path do you take...the democratically decided one that was agreed or the one where you rip up that agreement because it doesn't suit a minority?

well its why they will delay a border poll as long as possible. And if it goes to a NI vote first no guarantee it passes at all. The whole demographics of Northern Catholics has changed.

If it passed, it would go ahead but i'd imagine right away there would be civil unrest, general strikes, etc. All terribly undemocratic of course, but like i said their identity would have just died. And there is some mad heads among them. I can watch Nolan live any time, or on youtube for a taste of it.

Until the North faces a true catastrophe i can't see a United Ireland in my lifetime (35)

Dyr

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And if the vote of 50+1 is denied and the GFA ignored? What then?

Which path do you take...the democratically decided one that was agreed or the one where you rip up that agreement because it doesn't suit a minority?

Democracy is too difficult when the result might not suit our book, we'll just find an excuse to ignore it.

You can kinda see why these lads have a thing for the RIC, birds of a feather...

Muppet Man

Petition started in case anyone is interested


http://chng.it/CCRQ9PH6nt

marieholmfan

Nift wrote: »

well its why they will delay a border poll as long as possible. And if it goes to a NI vote first no guarantee it passes at all. The whole demographics of Northern Catholics has changed.

If it passed, it would go ahead but i'd imagine right away there would be civil unrest, general strikes, etc. All terribly undemocratic of course, but like i said their identity would have just died. And there is some mad heads among them. I can watch Nolan live any time, or on youtube for a taste of it.

Until the North faces a true catastrophe i can't see a United Ireland in my lifetime (35)

Of course and bombs and random murders of Roman Catholics. This is why we need to prepare to control the situation post - unification.

gormdubhgorm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

This event hosted by Leo Varadkar K.B.E. is like the Germans hosting a commemoration for the Stasi.
He should just burn the flag and replace the word Irish with British in all government documents and be done with it.
It's Tory apologist scutter.

It is not really because there is not only one shade of Nationalist.
Many were happy working for the Crown and hoping/working for Home Rule.
Padraig Pearse of then the Irish soccer tactic (the moral victory - victory in defeat) managed to sway public opinion in 1916. Other parties like Labour stood down to give SF a free run at it.

I think to paint things as Evil British collaborators v Heroic Republicans is disingenuous in the extreme.

Kevin Barry for example is lauded in song and story because of his age when he was executed - 18 years.







But the fella Barry shot dead (Private Harold Washington) was only 16 years.

marieholmfan

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

It is not really because there is not was not one shade of Nationalist.
Many were happy in the Commonwealth working for the Crown and hoping for Home Rule.
Padraig Pearse of the use of the Irish soccer tactic (the moral victory) managed to sway public opinion in 1916. Other parties like Labour stood down to give SF a free run at it.

I think to paint things as Evil British collaborators v Heroic Republicans is disingenuous in the extreme.

Kevin Barry for example is lauded in song and story because of his age when he was executed - 18.



But the fella Barry shot dead (Private Harold Washington) was only 16.

Feel free to write a song about Private Washington.

FrancieBrady

Nift wrote: »

well its why they will delay a border poll as long as possible. And if it goes to a NI vote first no guarantee it passes at all. The whole demographics of Northern Catholics has changed.

If it passed, i'd imagine right away there would be civil unrest, strikes, etc. All terribly undemocratic of course, but like i said their identity would have just died.

Until the North faces a true catastrophe i can't see a United Ireland in my lifetime (35)

So deny the identity of one side to protect the identity of another side. That is how you propose proceeding?

Why are you so afraid of democracy, if you 'can't see a UI in your lifetime'? 100 years on the people deserve to be treated with respect and allow the debate and referendum process to formally begin as per the GFA.

I have said it before here, it is not so much losing a border poll that Unionists and partitionists fear (the first one will probably be lost imo) it is the fear of what they will have to confront that paralyses the Unionist and partitionist community. Indeed, so fearful are the Unionist community atm that they are self imploding.

J Mysterio

https://twitter.com/MaryERegan/status/1214549610305380352

jimgoose

This "commemoration" is a fairly bone-headed idea by any standards. While I am inclined to see this for what it is, i.e. a bit of political plamásing designed to calm our Unionist brethren up North, and I don't for a moment suppose that either Charlie Flanagan or Leo Varadkar intends to commemorate the Black and Tans per sé or the murder of Tomás Mac Curtain of any of that carry-on, it is still very raw, particularly in Cork where righteous danders are well and truly up, and I'm surprised they thought it would ever fly.

Dyr

J Mysterio wrote: »

https://twitter.com/MaryERegan/status/1214549610305380352

Someday MM wil regain the use of his legs and manage to get off that fence he's been sitting on since he became Chief Buck Cat in FF