RIC and DMP to be commemorated this month

marieholmfan

jimgoose wrote: »

This "commemoration" is a fairly bone-headed idea by any standards. While I am inclined to see this for what it is, i.e. a bit of political plamásing designed to calm our Unionist brethren up North, and I don't for a moment suppose that either Charlie Flanagan or Leo Varadkar intends to commemorate the Black and Tans per sé or the murder of Tomás Mac Curtain of any of that carry-on, it is still very raw, particularly in Cork where righteous danders are well and truly up, and I'm surprised they thought it would ever fly.

Varadkar is so anti - IRA that he is anti - Old IRA; is Coveney planning to attend this?

Feisar

marieholmfan wrote: »

Feel free to write a song about Private Washington.

I think you may have missed the point.

James Brown

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

It is not really because there is not only one shade of Nationalist.
Many were happy working for the Crown and hoping/working for Home Rule.
Padraig Pearse of then the Irish soccer tactic (the moral victory - victory in defeat) managed to sway public opinion in 1916. Other parties like Labour stood down to give SF a free run at it.

I think to paint things as Evil British collaborators v Heroic Republicans is disingenuous in the extreme.

Kevin Barry for example is lauded in song and story because of his age when he was executed - 18 years.

..



But the fella Barry shot dead (Private Harold Washington) was only 16 years.

...

Washington was part of an occupying army. Sad, but just as sad as any soldier dying in any war.
The Black and Tans were murderous bullies and thugs. The same on both sides doesn't cut it as they were brought in by an occupying force to be bullies and thugs. They should not be celebrated or commemorated nor should any person willingly affiliated. This is beyond politics and Leo Varadkar K.B.E. is the one trying to put romantic nostalgia on a black and tan pig.

gormdubhgorm

marieholmfan wrote: »

Feel free to write a song about Private Washington.

Did you ever hear of him before or did you only hear of Kevin Barry?
It proves Leo Varadar's point that there should be some sort of memorial for those who served for the RIC and DMP.
People should not be forgotten particulary as many Irishmen fought for them form our current state and the whole island.

It is ironic that Sinn Fein now encourage nationalists to join the PSNI which serves a part of Britain. Yet they can arbitrarily draw a line and say no RIC no matter what the decade or era.

I suppose some people are just not as fortunate as Marie Holm, who will be remember forever by some, and she did not even have to get shot for the privilege.

jimgoose

Bambi wrote: »

Someday MM wil regain the use of his legs and manage to get off that fence he's been sitting on since he became Chief Buck Cat in FF

Well he can hardly set about restarting the Civil War, given the political position. :pac:

marieholmfan wrote: »

Varadkar is so anti - IRA that he is anti - Old IRA; is Coveney planning to attend this?

He hasn't said. I feel his pain - I'd imagine he would happily strangle Leo right about now. :pac::pac::pac:

Hamsterchops

Matt Barrett wrote: »

This event hosted by Leo Varadkar K.B.E. is like the Germans hosting a commemoration for the Stasi.
He should just burn the flag and replace the word Irish with British in all government documents and be done with it.
It's Tory apologist scutter.

That post is just totally crazy and infantile.

marieholmfan

Feisar wrote: »

I think you may have missed the point.

I don't think that gormdubhgorm was making a point. Just engaging in a virtue signalling display of emotion.



Am I supposed to weep for this long dead boy soldier?



Am I to weep for every youth who ever died by violence?

20silkcut

Has brexit killed west Britishness in Ireland ?

If this was c.2011 it possibly could have washed.

McMurphy

Parody I know, but the disturbing thing is, there's something very believable about it.

Leo Varadkar announces plans to commemorate the "achievements of absentee landlords" throughout Ireland's history, adding "Fine Gael respects all sides involved in the Great Famine, be they troublesome tenants or misunderstood British gentry

". https://t.co/wjvhdyg1Ee

jimgoose

jimgoose wrote: »

This "commemoration" is a fairly bone-headed idea by any standards. While I am inclined to see this for what it is, i.e. a bit of political plamásing designed to calm our Unionist brethren up North, and I don't for a moment suppose that either Charlie Flanagan or Leo Varadkar intends to commemorate the Black and Tans per sé or the murder of Tomás Mac Curtain of any of that carry-on, it is still very raw, particularly in Cork where righteous danders are well and truly up, and I'm surprised they thought it would ever fly.

it strikes me as the result of a committee being set up to commemorate things, so they are desperately seeking random things to commemorate to justify their budget.

jimgoose

Aegir wrote: »

it strikes me as the result of a committee being set up to commemorate things, so they are desperately seeking random things to commemorate to justify their budget.

Touch of that about it too, mind. :pac:

Zebra3

Sean.3516 wrote: »

The idea that Britain stumped for the Jews and sold out the Arabs is pure revisionist history. Again the Jews started migrating there BEFORE the British took over the mandate. The British Mandate heavily favoured the Arabs due to oil interests. The Mufti of Jerusalem incited pogroms against the Jewish population and the Brits let them at it. Their original two-state solution involved giving the vast majority of land to the Arabs. Way more than the UN gave them in 1947.

Worth noting that when the Jews started buying land there was no nation state in Palestine, it was an Ottoman imperial province. There was never a nation state in Palestine that wasn’t Jewish. The Arabs never attempted to form a state there even though they were entitled to under the British plan and the UN plan.


No they wouldn’t be entitled to form a state because they bought land for the simple reason that at a sovereign state already exists here.

No state had existed in Palestine, the proposed two-state solution was the first attempt at forming one since the Romans kicked the Jews out.



Due to them in what way?

Just because European jews started moving to Palestine which didn't exist as an independent state didn't give the racist European zionists any right to form a state there.

Why do you feel that Palestinians organising attacks on those planning to steal their country is some sort of issue?

cherryghost

20silkcut wrote: »

Has brexit killed west Britishness in Ireland ?

If this was c.2011 it possibly could have washed.

Irish history hasnt changed since 2011. It'd still be a scandalous decision back then. Nothing has changed in that aspect.

gormdubhgorm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Washington was part of an occupying army. Sad, but just as sad as any soldier dying in any war.
The Black and Tans were murderous bullies and thugs. The same on both sides doesn't cut it as they were brought in by an occupying force to be bullies and thugs. They should not be celebrated or commemorated nor should any person willingly affiliated. This is beyond politics and Leo Varadkar K.B.E. is the one trying to put romantic nostalgia on a black and tan pig.

There are various distinctions though when people use the term black and tans they erroneously refer to all British forces as the Tans.

I noticed Mary Lou made a point of calling it the Tan war.

There was

The British Army
The RIC
The DMP
The Black and Tans (RIC reserve) - the catch all term that is used incorrectly.
The Auxiliary Division of the RIC (ADRIC) - former British Army officers

Within those there were various strains of individual from Criminals to Upright soldiers/police.
They were also from around Ireland, England etc etc

I don't buy into this one size fits all they were all murdering xyz.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Did you ever hear of him before or did you only hear of Kevin Barry?
It proves Leo Varadar's point that there should be some sort of memorial for those who served for the RIC and DMP.
People should not be forgotten particulary as many Irishmen fought for them form our current state and the whole island.

So you would have no issue with a commemoration of the Gestapo, who were German men and women? Would you be in agreement with Leo representing us at such a commemoration?
How could he possibly refuse by his own logic.

gormdubhgorm

marieholmfan wrote: »

I don't think that gormdubhgorm was making a point. Just engaging in a virtue signalling display of emotion.



Am I supposed to weep for this long dead boy soldier?



Am I to weep for every youth who ever died by violence?

So do you sign Irish rebel songs so?
Only weep/glorify if they are Republican?

jimgoose

marieholmfan wrote: »

Looking in a mirror jimgoose?

What do you mean?

Zebra3

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Padraig Pearse of then the Irish soccer tactic (the moral victory - victory in defeat) managed to sway public opinion in 1916.

Stick with the facts, not your own made up rubbish.

It was the British by their brutal executions of the leaders of 1916 who managed to sway public opinion.

The arrogance of empire. We'll kill whoever we want however we want. How dare these natives make a stand against our empire built on ethnic cleansing and genocide.

marieholmfan

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

So do you sign Irish rebel songs so?
Only weep/glorify if they are Republican?

Is it your claim that if I do one thing I must therefore do all other things?


Am I not allowed to enjoy horse racing unless I also enjoy golf?

Scoundrel

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

There are various distinctions though when people use the term black and tans they erroneously refer to all British forces as the Tans.

I noticed Mary Lou made a point of calling it the Tan war.

There was

The British Army
The RIC
The DMP
The Black and Tans (RIC reserve) - the catch all term that is used incorrectly.
The Auxiliary Division of the RIC (ADRIC) - former British Army officers

Within those there were various strains of individual from Criminals to Upright soldiers/police.
They were also from around Ireland, England etc etc

I don't buy into this one size fits all they were all murdering xyz.

The point isn't that they shouldn't be remembered it's that the Irish state shouldn't be officially commemorating them it's pretty straightforward.

James Brown

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

There are various distinctions though when people use the term black and tans they erroneously refer to all British forces as the Tans.

I noticed Mary Lou made a point of calling it the Tan war.

There was

The British Army
The RIC
The DMP
The Black and Tans (RIC reserve) - the catch all term that is used incorrectly.
The Auxiliary Division of the RIC (ADRIC) - former British Army officers

Within those there were various strains of individual from Criminals to Upright soldiers/police.
They were also from around Ireland, England etc etc

I don't buy into this one size fits all they were all murdering xyz.

Look I'll consider some of FG are so dumb they might not have seen this coming, but they know now. I do believe there are elements within Fine Gael who love any chance of sticking it to people with politics that differ from their own, historically.
That said, this is a very highly contentious issue. All Leo Varadkar K.B.E. could have hoped to get out of it was a few tasty snaps for his instagram and maybe an old fashioned off the Queen.
Irish society did not ask for this. It is disrespectful to the people helped gain us our partial independence IMO.
I'm sure there were a few sound lads in the Stasi too.
Your argument that the RIC are not affiliated in any really real way with the RIC aux/reserve is laughable.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So you would have no issue with a commemoration of the Gestapo, who were German men and women? Would you be in agreement with Leo representing us at such a commemoration?
How could he possibly refuse by his own logic.

That is not the same as the Gestapo was an elite fanatical secret state police, in the DMP and RIC neither were the elite fanatical secret police as you well know. That would have been the G men.

Back to Solohedbeg 1919 even that was condemned by Nationalist's at the time.
As both RIC men were well liked and respected men in the area.

McDonnell a Mayo man left a large family behind as he was a widower, and he was an Irish speaker - which is much more than I can say for the likes of Mary Lou or Michelle O'Neill.
O'Connell was a Corkman from the supposed Rebel county as it is portrayed now.

What is wrong with fellas like that being remembered. Is it because you do not want to humanise the enemy, or admit they were Irishmen too?

Scoundrel

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

That is not the same as the Gestapo was an elite fanatical secret state police, in the DMP and RIC neither were the elite fanatical secret police as you well know. That would have been the G men.

Back to Solohedbeg 1919 even that was condemned by Nationalist's at the time.
As both RIC men were well liked and respected men in the area.

McDonnell a Mayo man left a large family behind as he was a widower, and he was an Irish speaker - which is much more than I can say for the likes of Mary Lou or Michelle O'Neill.
O'Connell was a Corkman from the supposed Rebel county as it is portrayed now.

What is wrong with fellas like that being remembered. Is it because you do not want to humanise the enemy, or admit they were Irishmen too?

Again the Irish state shouldn't be officially commemorating men who died actively trying to prevent the creation of the same state it's a very simple concept.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

That is not the same as the Gestapo was an elite fanatical secret state police, in the DMP and RIC neither were the elite fanatical secret police as you well know. That would have been the G men.

Back to Solohedbeg 1919 even that was condemned by Nationalist's at the time.
As both RIC men were well liked and respected men in the area.

McDonnell a Mayo man left a large family behind as he was a widower, and he was an Irish speaker - which is much more than I can say for the likes of Mary Lou or Michelle O'Neill.
O'Connell was a Corkman from the supposed Rebel county as it is portrayed now.

What is wrong with fellas like that being remembered. Is it because you do not want to humanise the enemy, or admit they were Irishmen too?

The Gestapo was made up of German men and women which is exactly the basis on which FG are justifying this now doomed commemoration.

Stop evading the comparison. I made no reference to a comparison of how they were structured or in what they did. I merely compared justifications.

Hamsterchops

Zebra3 wrote: »

It was the British by their brutal executions of the leaders of 1916 who managed to sway public opinion.

The arrogance of empire. We'll kill whoever we want however we want. How dare these natives make a stand against our empire built on ethnic cleansing and genocide.

By "The British" I guess you mean a certain General Maxwell who was caught between a rock & a hard place.

What was he to do with people who had helped to destroy the UK city of Dublin & been responsible for so much death and destruction?

Let them go? Shoot them? Hand them down life sentences or throw them to the wolves (the angry baying mob) ....

If I'd been him I have opted for the last option, or better still, put them before a judge & jury and let the jury decide what to do with them, although I gather there was so much anger against the Rebels "pre executions" that I don't know what the jury might have decided, possibly executions?

Complex.

Ash.J.Williams

this might cripple FG seems to be escalating


FF new election manifesto "vote FF we're not Tans"

gormdubhgorm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Look I'll consider some of FG are so dumb they might not have seen this coming, but they know now. I do believe there are elements within Fine Gael who love any chance of sticking it to people with politics that differ from their own, historically.
That said, this is a very highly contentious issue. All Leo Varadkar K.B.E. could have hoped to get out of it was a few tasty snaps for his instagram and maybe an old fashioned off the Queen.
Irish society did not ask for this. It is disrespectful to the people helped gain us our partial; independence IMO.
I'm sure there were a few sound lads in the Stasi too.
Your argument that the RIC are not affiliated in any really real way with the RIC aux is laughable.

The RIC and the auxiliaries are not the same organisation though, different character of individuals. For example you would not get many Irishmen from the south serving as an 'auxie'. Most came from the rest of Britain and the Auxies were the officer class. Their commanding officer B.General FP Crozier tried in vain to displine them into shape - they were drinking running wild after a while. But time and again his efforts were stymied by British politicians.

Disgusted by the behaviour in the War of Independence of the Black and Tans Crozier became a pacifist in later life.
The British later tried to discredit Crozier

Bridge93

Rememberance is fine and totally acceptable. The majority were ordinary men doing a job for a multitude of reasons and in a climate, both socially and politically, we can't possibly claim to fully understand. Falling on the wrong side of history by a set of events out of your control does not make you a bad person or whatever. As has been said, I'm sure there were men fighting for the Nazi's in France who were decent blokes swept along by the norms of the time.

But rightly or wrongly, the victors write history. And the victors in this case created what we have today, 100 years later. For that creation to officially commemorate organisations that actively sought to oppress and oppose it ever existing doesn't sit well with me.

Imagine being kidnapped by a gang who hold you hostage. They are killed in the process of you being freed by whatever means. You'd hardly be commemorating their memory or attending their funeral. That would still be true even if one of said gang was your uncle, or your cousin or whatever.

We can remember the individuals without the need to somehow justify the organisation for which they worked. Remember them as individuals caught up in a wirlwind period where, whether you wanted to or not, you were on one side or the other. History has them on the wrong side. Such is life. But as the British hand on the island of Ireland the RIC and DMP as a whole and their acts cannot be whitewashed from the history of this country

jimgoose

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

this might cripple FG seems to be escalating


FF new election manifesto "vote FF we're not Tans"

Yeah. Varadkar needs to gun this, and fast! :pac:

marieholmfan

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

this might cripple FG seems to be escalating


FF new election manifesto "vote FF we're not Tans"

I think one has to be a little bit careful when referring to Leo V as a 'tan'