RIC and DMP to be commemorated this month

FTA69

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

The RIC and the auxiliaries are not the same organisation though, different character of individuals. For example you would not get many Irishmen from the south serving as an 'auxie'. Most came from the rest of Britain and the Auxies were the officer class. Their commanding officer B.General FP Crozier tried in vain to displine them into shape - they were drinking running wild after a while. But time and again his efforts were stymied by British politicians.

Disgusted by the behaviour in the War of Independence of the Black and Tans Crozier became a pacifist in later life.
The British later tried to discredit Crozier

The Auxiliaries were a division of the RIC tasked with counter-insurgency.

jimgoose

marieholmfan wrote: »

I think one has to be a little bit careful when referring to Leo V as a 'tan'

:pac::pac::pac: Oh well-hit, Chief!

Slowyourrole

You know a government has gotten too comfortable in charge when they aren't concerned about the fallout of commemorating the black and tans.

Feisar

marieholmfan wrote: »

I don't think that gormdubhgorm was making a point. Just engaging in a virtue signalling display of emotion.



Am I supposed to weep for this long dead boy soldier?



Am I to weep for every youth who ever died by violence?

I think the point was ya can't go "oh the terrible brits, they killed a lad of eighteen summers" when the lad shot a sixteen year old however you don't here the Wolfe Tones mentioning him in the song.

I think the point was that things are never simple. A lot of RIC lads would have been trying to feed a family, for a lot of people that comes before any nationalistic notions.
We remember the Irish that died in foreign countries in British uniforms, I'm sure some of them committed atrocities however it's in a different land, we don't know about it. When it runs close to the bone it has a bitter taste to commemorate those that wronged us.
I was raised on stories of things the tans done, dragging my great grandfather out of his sick bed etc. Stories like the one where my great great grandfather was shot attempting to stop the RIC from putting a widow woman along with her children out on the road Xmas Eve. I seen the reminants of the hovel she was being put out of, Christ I'd be upset being put into it!
My blood is as green as anyone's I just believe things are often more complicated than us and them.
The film Michael Collin's comes to mind, when the free state soldier tells Collin's he shot Boland. I'm paraphrasing here but the soldier says what's the matter, he was one of them. To which Collins replies; "No, he was one of us".

gormdubhgorm

buried wrote: »

Not talking about any of that though am I?

You claimed the atrocity was not acceptable by the British authorities.

The fact they never arrested any member of the RIC or their murderous cadres for the atrocity literally proves they did deem it acceptable.

Don't ever lecture to me what books to read either.

I think you are in badly need of some reading educate yourself on it.

Neither Major Mills nor B.G Crozier ordered anyone to fire on the crowd on bloody Sunday 1920. They were disgusted by it that is what I mean by not acceptable. They stopped the men as soon as possible.
If you read up on it you will find out that as well.

Hamsterchops

Slowyourrole wrote: »

You know a government has gotten too comfortable in charge when they aren't concerned about the fallout of commemorating the black and tans.

A commemoration for the Black & Tans?

When is that?

FrancieBrady

Ferriter distances himself and lands Flanagan in the mire.

https://www.thejournal.ie/diarmaid-ferriter-ric-commemoration-4956212-Jan2020/?utm_source=twitter_short

THE EXPERT ADVISORY Group for the government’s Decade of Centenaries programme did not recommend the planned commemoration event for the Royal Irish Constabulary (RIC), one of its members said today.

In a statement to TheJournal.ie, EAG member and Professor of Modern Irish History at UCD Diarmaid Ferriter said that Minister Charlie Flanagan issued a statement yesterday which, in his view, “misrepresents the position of the Expert Advisory Group (EAG) in relation to commemoration of the RIC”.

The high horse brigade

Hamsterchops wrote: »

A commemoration for the Black & Tans?

When is that?

#Tanfest 17th January

Odhinn

cryptocurrency wrote: »

My ancestors suffered at the hands of the Vikings. I want to never let it go.

You might want to research what dates colonialism ended in Africa and elsewhere.


Eg

Last February the International Court of Justice (ICJ), the principal judicial body of the United Nations, issued an advisory opinion that found the UK was in unlawful occupation of the islands and demanded that they be returned to Mauritius as quickly as possible.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jan/05/uk-forfeit-security-council-chagos-islands-dispute

Fann Linn

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I think you are in badly need of some reading educate yourself on it.

Neither Major Mills nor B.G Crozier ordered anyone to fire on the crowd on bloody Sunday 1920. They were disgusted by it that is what I mean by not acceptable. They stopped the men as soon as possible.
If you read up on it you will find out that as well.

The Paras said the same in '72.

buried

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I think you are in badly need of some reading educate yourself on it.

Neither Major Mills nor B.G Crozier ordered anyone to fire on the crowd on bloody Sunday 1920. They were disgusted by it that is what I mean by not acceptable. They stopped the men as soon as possible.
If you read up on it you will find out that as well.

I know all about it gasun. I know no one was held responsible for the murderous atrocity, a fact you didn't know even yourself, so you are in no position to pathetically attempt to lecture to me on the subject.

is_that_so

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Ferriter distances himself and lands Flanagan in the mire.

https://www.thejournal.ie/diarmaid-ferriter-ric-commemoration-4956212-Jan2020/?utm_source=twitter_short

Must have quite an expensive laser to split hairs like that. Pretty much the same thing. Their suggestion led politicians to be guided by it. TBF they have been landed in it by simplistic media interpretation of what they are supposed to have said.

BarryD2

This thread is profoundly depressing reading for anyone with an aspiration for a united peaceful Ireland. We're talking about events of a century ago, best to remember them warts and all and then move on. If people are so mean spirited as regards a simple ceremony to acknowledge the many Irishmen who served in the RIC, what hope is there for any sort of mutual respect for our northern brethren?

FrancieBrady

is_that_so wrote: »

Must have quite an expensive laser to split hairs like that. Pretty much the same thing. Their suggestion led politicians to be guided by it. TBF they have been landed in it by simplistic media interpretation of what they are supposed to have said.

It was plain to anyone reading the document that it wasn't a recommendation to hold an event like this. It was a recommendation to 'consider' doing something.

Charlie now has to own it, he 'considered' it and deemed this formal state commemoration appropriate without much further consultation with anyone else it seems.

gormdubhgorm

Feisar wrote: »

I think the point was ya can't go "oh the terrible brits, they killed a lad of eighteen summers" when the lad shot a sixteen year old however you don't here the Wolfe Tones mentioning him in the song.

I think the point was that things are never simple. A lot of RIC lads would have been trying to feed a family, for a lot of people that comes before any nationalistic notions.
We remember the Irish that died in foreign countries in British uniforms, I'm sure some of them committed atrocities however it's in a different land, we don't know about it. When it runs close to the bone it has a bitter taste to commemorate those that wronged us.
I was raised on stories of things the tans done, dragging my great grandfather out of his sick bed etc. Stories like the one where my great great grandfather was shot attempting to stop the RIC from putting a widow woman along with her children out on the road Xmas Eve. I seen the reminants of the hovel she was being put out of, Christ I'd be upset being put into it!
My blood is as green as anyone's I just believe things are often more complicated than us and them.
The film Michael Collin's comes to mind, when the free state soldier tells Collin's he shot Boland. I'm paraphrasing here but the soldier says what's the matter, he was one of them. To which Collins replies; "No, the was one of us".

Exactly some Irish people have been brainwashed. It seems like it is the only sense of self-worth they can create is to bash the Brits. Characterise them all as the evil villains.

When in realty Ireland is the only country in Europe that does not really speak its own language. Some 'rabid republicans' supposedly hate the English never make an effort with Irish. They support English teams and watch SKY SPORTS.
Rarely if ever go to a LOI game. The Rabid Republican probably is an avid reader of British tabloids.
It is this type of individual that is Ireland's problem not 'The Brits', Nigerian's or Poles.
They are normally male working class/unemployed covered in tattoos eire go bragh/Celtic. They were brought up in a disadvantaged area.

But they don't want to really better themselves just appear like the hardman. It is that special type of Irish imbecile born and rared (in the south of Ireland) with a narrow viewpoint on the world. Who is just looking for a gang to be part of based on historic glories about the IRA. This type enjoys the mystic of violence it gives them self-worth, and gives thier lives meaning, however flawed.
They do not understand the nuances of history.
This is the type Sinn Fein still have to appeal to. They are trying to slowly move away from that base, but it is difficult for them.

These are the types that the protests to the DMP/RIC remembrance are largely aimed at in the hope of votes. I think Leo is smart enough to know this and it will pull SF backward not forward. SF wanted educated people these days, they are trying to aim for the middle classes, and get the female vote. Give SF a less threatening more feminine look as well. Are protests like this going to help?

Sir Oxman

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Ferriter distances himself and lands Flanagan in the mire.

https://www.thejournal.ie/diarmaid-ferriter-ric-commemoration-4956212-Jan2020/?utm_source=twitter_short

Well, well, well.

So much for the multiple attempts to say eminent experts gave the nod for it.
FG didn't even consult the all-part ctte either, despite multiple posts on here saying so in error (I'll kindly say in error)

This is Flanagans doing with Varadkars backing.
Well done lads, well done.:rolleyes:
FG are sickening.

"In a statement to TheJournal.ie, EAG member and Professor of Modern Irish History at UCD Diarmaid Ferriter said that Minister Charlie Flanagan issued a statement yesterday which, in his view, “misrepresents the position of the Expert Advisory Group (EAG) in relation to commemoration of the RIC”. He said that Minister Flanagan “should not refer to the event on 17 January in Dublin Castle as being as a result of our guidance”.

"He said that what the EAG had in mind “was an academic event – a conference or seminar – that would look at the issue of policing in Ireland during the revolutionary period, including the role of and disbandment of the RIC and the foundation of the Civic Guard, which became An Garda Síochána”.
Ferriter said that the EAG “should not be used by the government as a mudguard to provide cover for itself when it receives negative reaction to its solo runs in relation to commemoration”.

Feisar

In fairness I blame Dev, he started the trend when he sent the German ambassador condolences on the death of Hitler:D

Zebra3

Hamsterchops wrote: »

By "The British" I guess you mean a certain General Maxwell who was caught between a rock & a hard place.

What was he to do with people who had helped to destroy the UK city of Dublin & been responsible for so much death and destruction?

Let them go? Shoot them? Hand them down life sentences or throw them to the wolves (the angry baying mob) ....

If I'd been him I have opted for the last option, or better still, put them before a judge & jury and let the jury decide what to do with them, although I gather there was so much anger against the Rebels "pre executions" that I don't know what the jury might have decided, possibly executions?

Complex.

One poster claimed Pearse swayed public opinion. I pointed out that was untrue.

Maxwell did what the British Empire always did. It crushed the natives as per its' supremacist values.

And it wasn't the IRB who had destroyed the city, that was done by the Brits. It wasn't the IRB sending guns boats down the Liffey launching attacks on random civilians.

But poor Maxwell. The innocent victim. What could he do? :rolleyes:

Odhinn

BarryD2 wrote: »

This thread is profoundly depressing reading for anyone with an aspiration for a united peaceful Ireland. We're talking about events of a century ago, best to remember them warts and all and then move on. If people are so mean spirited as regards a simple ceremony to acknowledge the many Irishmen who served in the RIC, what hope is there for any sort of mutual respect for our northern brethren?

This was a paramilitary force, armed and employed to suppress nationalism and the populace at large, not a normal police force.

Fann Linn

Nothing to do with the Shinners
They were slow outta traps too in condemning this fiasco.

is_that_so

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It was plain to anyone reading the document that it wasn't a recommendation to hold an event like this. It was a recommendation to 'consider' doing something.

Charlie now has to own it, he 'considered' it and deemed this formal state commemoration appropriate without much further consultation with anyone else it seems.

And this point leads where exactly? Cancel it? Redefine it? Or just be outraged about it? It's a commemoration, clearly one that not unexpectedly gets up some noses, one of very many over this decade and it'll be over come lunchtime on Friday week.

jimgoose

BarryD2 wrote: »

This thread is profoundly depressing reading for anyone with an aspiration for a united peaceful Ireland. We're talking about events of a century ago, best to remember them warts and all and then move on. If people are so mean spirited as regards a simple ceremony to acknowledge the many Irishmen who served in the RIC, what hope is there for any sort of mutual respect for our northern brethren?

We do remember them warts and all, that's the whole problem. We particulary remember them .303 rounds and all. Our Northern brethren will not sicken and die for the want of a commemorative ceremony for a police and paramilitary force representing a foreign occupier before the Free State was formed, never mind the current republic.

FrancieBrady

BarryD2 wrote: »

This thread is profoundly depressing reading for anyone with an aspiration for a united peaceful Ireland. We're talking about events of a century ago, best to remember them warts and all and then move on. If people are so mean spirited as regards a simple ceremony to acknowledge the many Irishmen who served in the RIC, what hope is there for any sort of mutual respect for our northern brethren?

We managed to hold inclusive and respectful commemoration for all those killed in the Rising in 2016 (albeit after this same government where forced to withdraw an insulting video and had their cards marked).
There is mutual respect, what there isn't is a tolerance for whitewashing and rehabilitating enemies of this state whether they be British or Irish.

Odhinn

Read this

Mr Flanagan said he attended because the policemen involved were “doing their job. They were murdered in the line of duty.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/minister-attends-service-for-killed-ric-and-dmp-men-1.4018814


Not killed, but "murdered". <snip>

gormdubhgorm

buried wrote: »

I know all about it gasun. I know no one was held responsible for the murderous atrocity, a fact you didn't know even yourself, so you are in no position to pathetically attempt to lecture to me on the subject.

That was not relevant to the point I was making as you well know.
Judging by the tone of your texts and your username I suppose I should be wary of a knock on my door? :eek:

marieholmfan

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

That was not relevant to the point I was making as you well know.
Judging by the tone of your texts and your username I suppose I should be wary of a knock on my door? :eek:

What points do you believe that you are making?

FrancieBrady

is_that_so wrote: »

And this point leads where exactly? Cancel it? Redefine it? Or just be outraged about it? It's a commemoration, clearly one that not unexpectedly gets up some noses, one of very many over this decade and it'll be over come lunchtime on Friday week.

Still hand-waving it all away.

Seem to remember that starting about Maria Bailey too....the better part of a year ago.

gormdubhgorm

Odhinn wrote: »

Read this



https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/minister-attends-service-for-killed-ric-and-dmp-men-1.4018814


Not killed, but "murdered". <snip>

Dan Breen himself called all killing murder @34:00

So in fairness Flanagan is in good company when it comes to the use of the phrase.

Sir Oxman

is_that_so wrote: »

And this point leads where exactly? Cancel it? Redefine it? Or just be outraged about it? It's a commemoration, clearly one that not unexpectedly gets up some noses, one of very many over this decade and it'll be over come lunchtime on Friday week.

FG ignored the expert Group, didn't consult the all-party ctte.
Why?
The recommendation was an academic seminar or something similar and that makes perfect sense.

The decade of commemorations is meant to be agreed.
It's funny that the expert group was being lauded for their foresight a few hours ago, now it doesn't matter.
The HARP crowd can have their ceremony as they have done for the past 6 or 7 years but it should not be an approved state commemoration for a force that opposed Irish independence.
All Irish who died in WoI will be commemorated in 2021.

buried

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

That was not relevant to the point I was making as you well know.
Judging by the tone of your texts and your username I suppose I should be wary of a knock on my door? :eek:

No need to worry about a knock on your door as a Irish person these days gasun. We got rid of that trash 100 years ago.