RIC and DMP to be commemorated this month

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

How do you know about them if they have been 'erased'.

Over dramatisation perhaps?

People have songs written about them because people want to/think it is worthwhile to, remember them typically.
Does that tell you anything?

Because a few people kept the weak flame of thier memory alive.
Normally they are just referred to collectively as the forces of the Crown or British forces.
Meanwhile the Republican fellas get thier songs.

It was discouraged to remember anyone who fought in WWI or who was a member of the RIC/DMP.
How many people on this thread can rattle of names of members of the RIC/DMP from the 20's v Irish volunteers.

The Solohedbeg incident told me a lot anyway. It was condemned from all sides only Collins was delighted (according to Breen) because it was going to kick things off.
By all accounts the RIC lads in were respected yet when you hear it mentioned most of the time they are glossed over from the Irish viewpoint. It is all Robinson, Treacy Breen etc.

Plus that is the most famous ambush seen as the start of the whole war, other fellas from the RIC/DMP are even less likely to be remembered.

Zebra3

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

OK yeah that is a fair point maybe specfic a few fellas from the RIC specifically who were proven to be just doing thier duty and not blaguarding, mowing civilians out of it, or burning houses villages.

I was looking up that FP Crozier commander of the Auxileries he hated the carry of the Black and Tans etc. When he retired the British establishment despised him because he told it as it was.
They were not all murderous, ex-con loopers.
There are bound to be plenty more accounts of others in the archives.

And yet, there he was enforcing the British occupation in Ireland while getting well paid for it.

My heart truly bleeds.

FrancieBrady

It's hilarious and pathetic.

It goes something like this:

Poster 1: The British army are complicit in the suppression of Irish people.

Poster 2: No they weren't. *There follows multiple posts expounding the same theory.

Poster 1: Posts evidence that the British Army were actually complicit.

Poster 2: Well that was just a few rotten apples. *There follows multiple posts expounding the same theory.



Rinse and repeat conversation for BA, - RIC - DMP - Black and Tans - UDR - RUC etc etc.

Ash.J.Williams

I'm no republican at all but the likes of dan breen did some serious dirty work for the country inflicting major damage on the British, and will probably never be mentioned by the mainstream parties. Should they be officially recognized?


edit
(i think)

Feisar

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

OK yeah that is a fair point maybe specfic a few fellas from the RIC specifically who were proven to be just doing thier duty and not blaguarding, mowing civilians out of it, or burning houses villages.

I was looking up that FP Crozier commander of the Auxileries he hated the carry of the Black and Tans etc. When he retired the British establishment despised him because he told it as it was.
They were not all murderous, ex-con loopers.
There are bound to be plenty more accounts of others in the archives.

I remember reading a book about the war of independence written in the 1930's/40's from the IRA point of view. To call it biased would an understatement.
Irish people have being force fed enough of that guff, it is about time a more rounded history was told. So it can be remembered.
It will be interesting to see what happens when the Civil War centenary arrives, will all the documents be released?
Nowhere to hide there in the Brit v Ireland narrative.

Guerilla Days In Ireland by Tom Barry, a patriot but they should have kept him away from the biro.

TwoMonthsOff

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

I'm no republican at all but the likes of dan breen did some serious dirty work for the country inflicting major damage on the British, and will probably never be mentioned by the mainstream parties. Should they be officially recognized?

There should be a statue of him, an absolute hero and I'm no Republican either, by today's standards anyway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emBbgo1DZTk

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Because a few people kept the weak flame of thier memory alive.
Normally they are just referred to collectively as the forces of the Crown or British forces.
Meanwhile the Republican fellas get thier songs.

It was discouraged to remember anyone who fought in WWI or who was a member of the RIC/DMP.
How many people on this thread can rattle of names of members of the RIC/DMP from the 20's v Irish volunteers.

The Solohedbeg incident told me a lot anyway. It was condemned from all sides only Collins was delighted (according to Breen) because it was going to kick things off.
By all accounts the RIC lads in were respected yet when you hear it mentioned most of the time they are glossed over from the Irish viewpoint. It is all Robinson, Treacy Breen etc.

Plus that is the most famous ambush seen as the start of the whole war, other fellas from the RIC/DMP are even less likely to be remembered.

What are you on about...the republican fellas 'get' their songs?

Do you think they are handed out by the state or something? People or events are remembered because people want to remember them.

Is your version of a UI going to mandate that we write songs about everybody?

LostinBlanch

J Mysterio wrote: »

Bolded above is the crux of the problem. All these elements are part of a greater RIC whole: what was a tool of the oppressive British aparatus in Ireland.

Ultimately, the RIC imposed British rule here. A rule, which at various times through history banned our language, games, religion, culture, took our land and resources and planted beligerents here. The effects are of course still felt today (e.g. Irish is barely spoken, e.g. the island partioned).

We should be continuing to celebrate the centenary of our winning independence from the British, not the tools of its oppression and control. We have not even yet reached the actual centenary of the creation of the Irish state (2022). Not yet a 100 years later we are a country which is now one of the most progressive in the world. At such a time as this, it's wholly inappropriate to deign to doff the cap to the institutional instrument of our former oppressors, or wrack ourselves with some sort of Stockholm Syndrome guilt or seek to somehow appease admirers of Britain.

It should be acknowledged that as the British progressively lost control of this island due to their impositions and cruelty, so Irelands desire was time and again renewed to cast off the shackles and pursue self determination. This is a constant theme throughout our hundreds of years of shared history. This desire always resulted in an escalation and the British becoming increasingly nasty, and so did their tools of control, in this case the RIC.

Accepting that at one point or another, there may have been a few RIC lads that may have been 'good' in their community or 'needed a job' or whatever, this 'commemoration' is of the RIC as a whole, in all its guises (and so including 'the Black and Tans' and the 'Auxillaries'). It's simply not appropriate for the Irish state to commemorate that. It is also not correct to simplify what is a long and complex history and then say 'this was your police force'. They can not simply be 'rehabilitated' in this way and history can not be scrubbed, sanatised or revised so trivially.

It is complex and so needs to be addressed in a nuanced way, and with more consultation and forethought .

My main issue is the tone of Varadkar in this: "it is regrettable" people do not agree. That to commemorate the RIC is 'mature' and so not to do so is of course 'immature'. That is a gross simplification, it's disrespectful to our history and a disservice to those who fought, died and suffered through British rule before eventually achieving a mostly independent Ireland.

Before I am accused of bitterness or hate - I don't hate the British/ English and I am not bitter, but neither do I forget our difficult history. Let's worry about us and acknowledge how far we have come, Brexit Britain is certainly concentrating on itself.

Well it's patently obvious that Flanagan and Varadkar have shot themselves in the foot over this. Their arrogance and ridiculous handling of this situation has (re)awakened republican sympathies in people who ordinarily wouldn't regard themselves as republicans. FF are twisting in the wind over this, and Sinn Fein are right up there on the bandwagon, I've no idea what the other parties are doing. All the political leadership came from local government and not party headquarters.

It's very hard to argue with the Lord Mayor of Cork when he says he could not attend the ceremony while wearing the same mayoral chain that was once worn by Tomás MacCurtain, the Cork mayor who was dragged from his home and assassinated by RIC officers in March 1920.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It's hilarious and pathetic.

It goes something like this:

Poster 1: The British army are complicit in the suppression of Irish people.

Poster 2: No they weren't. *There follows multiple posts expounding the same theory.

Poster 1: Posts evidence that the British Army were actually complicit.

Poster 2: Well that was just a few rotten apples. *There follows multiple posts expounding the same theory.

Sure there were 'rotten apples' as you call it on every side you only have to look at De Valera's antics on the treaty vote. Then he changed his tune only took him a decade or so. Look at all the people he ended up killing and/or saving directly or indirectly

The painting as one side as good or evil is silly.
There was ruthlessness on all sides that is for sure, and surely there were moments of doubt and compassion as well.

As for the spression of the Irish people the British have left the 26 counties pushing 80 years. But Ireland's cultural beacon is still England/USA.
Ireland still don't speak thier own language as thier native tongue.
It is like a woman with fancy make up covering the cracks and a cheap dress.
And this is supposed to be a proud nation?
I suppose the Brits are at fault for that too?

Ireland is more British or American than it is Irish.

Zebra3

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It's hilarious and pathetic.

It goes something like this:

Poster 1: The British army are complicit in the suppression of Irish people.

Poster 2: No they weren't. *There follows multiple posts expounding the same theory.

Poster 1: Posts evidence that the British Army were actually complicit.

Poster 2: Well that was just a few rotten apples. *There follows multiple posts expounding the same theory.

Rinse and repeat conversation for BA, - RIC - DMP - Black and Tans - UDR - RUC etc etc.

Also Poster 2: How dare you talk about the crimes of the RIC, my grandad was in the RIC. My nanny told me he was a lovely fella. Used to take his dog out for a walk.

gormdubhgorm

Zebra3 wrote: »

Also Poster 2: How dare you talk about the crimes of the RIC, my grandad was in the RIC. My nanny told me he was a lovely fella. Used to take his dog out for a walk.

See this is the sort of whataboutery from the bigoted narrowminded republican types who see only one view,
Even in the sart of the war of Independence two Irishmen one from Cork and one from Mayo were shot dead for three poxy boxes of geligenite. (never used due to frost)

One left five orphans was a native Irish speaker, which is more that can be said for so many plastic republicans. Who can barely speak English nevermind Irish.

If people cannot find it in thier hearts to remember real Irishmen who did not live in colours or flags. But lived his culture, was respected in the community spoke fluent Irish as his native tongue.

For a fella like that to be dismissed because he wore an RIC uniform does not make you nationalist, it just makes you a heartless brainwashed bigot.

Those fellas O'Donnell and O'Connell from the RIC in 1919 were as much Irishmen as Robinson, Breen or Treacy et al.

But it is much more palatable to term them RIC as Crown forces better narrative. Pathetic.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Ireland is more British or American than it is Irish.

:D Oh dear me.

suicide_circus

is attendance of the memorial compulsory ?

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

See this is the sort of whataboutery from the bigoted narrowminded republican types who see only one view,
Even in the sart of the war of Independence two Irishmen one from Cork and one from Mayo were shot dead for three poxy boxes of geligenite. (never used due to frost)

One left five orphans was a native Irish speaker, which is more that can be said for so many plastic republicans. Who can barely speak English nevermind Irish.

If people cannot find it in thier hearts to remember real Irishmen who did not live in colours or flags. But lived his culture, was respected in the community spoke fluent Irish as his native tongue.

For a fella like that to be dismissed because he wore an RIC uniform does not make you nationalist, it just makes you a heartless brainwashed bigot.

Those fellas O'Donnell and O'Connell from the RIC in 1919 were as much Irishmen as Robinson, Breen or Treacy et al.

But it is much more palatable to term them RIC as Crown forces better narrative. Pathetic.

Nobody has a problem 'remembering' Irish men and women and we always have (the state financed garden at Islandbridge being a conveniently ignored case in point) Apparently, according to you, we brainwash people to not remember and 'give' them songs only about republicans.

What we have a problem with is commemorating organisations that were the enforcers of the colonial rule we threw off/rejected.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

:D Oh dear me.

It is what language are we conversing in now - English
What soaps do people watch - English ones
Reality TV - American / English
People especially young women speak in American intonations putting 'like' in sentences as if they are from the mid-atlantic.
What bands do people most listen to English or American

TV programmes English or American series

Soccer teams - mostly Irish people support English/British teams and proudly say we.

But yet people have the neck to pretend to be a quasi-republican with weak protests against a DMP or RIC with Irishmen who had just as much balls as the Republicans. Only the uniform was different.

Ireland's mindset is messed up in my view.

ClanofLams

There were good people in the RIC no doubt but the idea of having a commemoration for an organisation that was a key component of British rule and involved in murder, torture, etc of Irish people is ridiculous.

Varadkar has had an absolute shocker here too. The arrogance with which he has responded isn’t playing well. These controversies are often overstated in terms of electoral impact but really do think this will have a tangible impact and might well cost him position of Taoiseach.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

It is what language are we conversing in now - English
What soaps do people watch - English ones
Reality TV - American / English
People especially young women speak in American intonations putting 'like' in sentences as if they are from the mid-atlantic.
What bands do people most listen to English or American

TV programmes English or American series

Soccer teams - mostly Irish people support English/British teams and proudly say we.

But yet people have the neck to pretend to be a quasi-republican with weak protests against a DMP or RIC with Irishmen who had just as much balls as the Republicans. Only the uniform was different.

Ireland's mindset is messed up in my view.

So the television soap you watch defines you culturally now?

American television is just as popular in Britain as here, are they similarly afflicted by this cultural sameness?

Or are we going to get the 'ah they are just a few rotten apples' story again?

Look, it is fairly clear you are trying to enflame and get a rise. I'm way ahead of you. Your posts are just comedy gold now.

whisky_galore

suicide_circus wrote: »

is attendance of the memorial compulsory ?

Surprisingly enough it isn't.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Nobody has a problem 'remembering' Irish men and women and we always have (the state financed garden at Islandbridge being a conveniently ignored case in point) Apparently, according to you, we brainwash people to not remember and 'give' them songs only about republicans.

What we have a problem with is commemorating organisations that were the enforcers of the colonial rule we threw off/rejected.

Why are you pretending you did it? You were not there! But for fate you could have being in an RUC uniform in the 1920's trying to support your family living from day to day. Or fighting in Belgium or France with the BA.

'We' the same thing so called many republicans say when supporting British teams. It makes me laugh.
Is this the same 'we' that let a kiddie fiddler run riot - rather than report it to the authorities as it was a 'prominent' republican family.
I don't hear you taking credit for that. They did not even have the 'decency' to kneecap the fella.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So the television soap you watch defines you culturally now?

American television is just as popular in Britain as here, are they similarly afflicted by this cultural sameness?

Or are we going to get the 'ah they are just a few rotten apples' story again?

Look, it is fairly clear you are trying to enflame and get a rise. I'm way ahead of you. Your posts are just comedy gold now.

It is called cultural appropriation Ireland still speaks in the language of thier former colonial masters predominately, and could not even manage to revive Irish.
The only country in Europe that does not speak it's own language.
Ireland is inundated with English and American media. They are copied and aped.

Yet there is pretenses like the protests against the DMP and RIC to make people feel Irish/or get a nationalist vote. It is a cod.

suicide_circus

whisky_galore wrote: »

Surprisingly enough it isn't.

so people are free not to attend?

marieholmfan

Write some songs so!


Anyway what about


When I was 18 years of age


Into the army I did engage

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

A commemoration to me is an event where people are remembered there was no mention of 'honouring'.
All the Republican side has famous stories and songs about them. Even Cathal Brugha who was supposed to be a very serious fella, and no craic.

No mention in song about ordinary lads from the other side, during the War of Ind. they have been erased from history.

hatrickpatrick

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

But for fate you could have being in an RUC uniform in the 1920's trying to support your family living from day to day. Or fighing in Belgium or France in the BA.

"But by fate" implying that people don't have free will and cannot distinguish between right or wrong, and subsequently choose whether to do right or wrong in their lives? "But by fate" you could have been in an RUC uniform, unless of course you had enough personal morality to choose not to join an organisation of sadistic scumbags who saw their role in society as keeping down the oppressed.

It's a bullsh!t argument. Anyone who joined a bad actor chose to do so. Anyone who stayed in an organisation after it switched from being a good actor to a bad actor chose to stay in it. Anyone who put themselves or their own lives ahead of common human decency in doing so is just as much a scumbag as the people who made those bad actors bad to begin with.

hatrickpatrick

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

A commemoration to me is an event where people are remembered there was no mention of 'honouring'.
All the Republican side has famous stories and songs about them. Even Cathal Brugha who was supposed to be a very serious fella, and no craic.

No mention in song about ordinary lads from the other side, during the War of Ind. they have been erased from history.

Because one side fought for evil ends and one did not. Fighting to keep people down is not something anyone should be afforded one shred of sympathy or understanding for.

saabsaab

A Song from a while back..


THE GENTLE BLACK AND TAN
Breandán Ó hEithir
Come all you staunch revisionists
And listen to my song,
It’s short and it’s unusual
And it won’t detain you long.
It’s all about a soldier
Who has carried history’s can,
Who dodged Tom Barry and Dan Breen
The gentle Black and Tan.
‘Twas the curse of unemployment
That drove him to our shore.
His jacket black and trousers tan
Like a badge of shame he wore.
“Subdue the rebel Irish
And shoot them when you can!”
“May God forgive me if I do,”
Prayed the gentle Black and Tan.
The burning of Cork city
Was indeed a mighty blaze.
The jewellers’ shops were gutted
Not before the spoils were shared.
Gold and silver ornaments,
Rings and watches for each man,
“But I only struck the matches,”
Said the gentle Black and Tan.
Croke Park and Bloody Sunday
Was our hero’s greatest test.
The spectators on the terraces
Nigh impossible to miss.
With salt tears his eyes were blinded
And down his cheeks they ran,
So he only shot Mick Hogan
The gentle Black and Tan.
So take heed you blinkered Nationalists
Fair warning take from me.
If you want to live in safety
And keep this land at sea.
Take heed of our three heroes
Murphy, Edwards and Yer Man,
Who will sing the fame and clear the name
Of the gentle Black and Tan.

suicide_circus

history is written by the victors.

marieholmfan

What about


Four years ago I was footing the land


With me brogues on me feet and me spade in me hand ?


Just because you don't know those songs doesn't mean they don't exist

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

A commemoration to me is an event where people are remembered there was no mention of 'honouring'.
All the Republican side has famous stories and songs about them. Even Cathal Brugha who was supposed to be a very serious fella, and no craic.

No mention in song about ordinary lads from the other side, during the War of Ind. they have been erased from history.

Kermit.de.frog

Important to note that the government is adamant this is not a "celebration" but rather a recognition that, like it or not, this is an integral part of our history that should be remembered because also like it or not we are talking about Irish people.

Dyr

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

It is what language are we conversing in now - English
What soaps do people watch - English ones
Reality TV - American / English
People especially young women speak in American intonations putting 'like' in sentences as if they are from the mid-atlantic.
What bands do people most listen to English or American

TV programmes English or American series

Soccer teams - mostly Irish people support English/British teams and proudly say we.

But yet people have the neck to pretend to be a quasi-republican with weak protests against a DMP or RIC with Irishmen who had just as much balls as the Republicans. Only the uniform was different.

Ireland's mindset is messed up in my view.

Careful now, true colours showing a bit.

Phoebas

Any merit in postponing this for another hundred years? - it looks like we're not quite ready for it yet.