RIC and DMP to be commemorated this month

mariaalice

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETfdL5TE1Ec.

KWAG2019

saabsaab wrote: »

That is true too, however it shows that they largely were part of their community apart from some die hards. Sometimes people end up on the wrong side of history.

They were only valued because of their capacity to know and report in their community. When many of them finally saw what the Brits wanted of them they resigned. Many didn’t.

Honour their resignations, not their service.

Church on Tuesday

ZuluDawn2020 wrote: »

Apparently a ceremony is going to be held attended by the Minister for Justice and Garda Commissioner to comemorate members of the DMP (Dublin Metropolitan Police) and RIC (Royal Irish Constabulary) killed during the Irish Revolution.

Does anyone else think this is grotesque?

Well a lot of the members of those forces, if not all, were Irishmen so no not really.

Dyr

saabsaab wrote: »

That is true too, however it shows that they largely were part of their community apart from some die hards. Sometimes people end up on the wrong side of history.

The RIC generally did not allow their men to serve in their own communities. It would be hard to smash a families home up and put them out on the street when they know your parents.

corner of hells

Bambi wrote: »

The RIC generally did not allow their men to serve in their own communities. It would be hard to smash a families home up and put them out on the street when they know your parents.

That was the norm , RIC were placed miles away from their home towns.

saabsaab

KWAG2019 wrote: »

They were only valued because of their capacity to know and report in their community. When many of them finally saw what the Brits wanted of them they resigned. Many didn’t.

Honour their resignations, not their service.

Those that didn't may not have a choice out of fear or loyalty to their colleagues. Have you in your heart the capacity to forgive those fellow Irishmen who may have been misguided or on the wrong side of history. Is it not time now? A commemoration need not be a celebration or a mark of approval.

CrankyHaus

saabsaab wrote: »

Those that didn't may not have a choice out of fear or loyalty to their colleagues. Have you in your heart the capacity to forgive those fellow Irishmen who may have been misguided or on the wrong side of history. Is it not time now? A commemoration need not be a celebration or a mark of approval.

A commemoration is by definition respectful remembrance. Unless otherwise clearly stated this is an endorsement of everything the RIC did and the language used by those proposing it clearly attempts to legitimise their actions.

A state remembrance of the Irishmen in the RIC that made clear it did not endorse the RIC itself would be a very different matter than what is being proposed.

Scoundrel

spurious wrote: »

And many RIC resigned when the Tans were introduced.
And there were hundreds of letters of complaint sent by serving RIC men as to what was going on with the Tans.

The whole story, not just part of it. As I said, cartoonish versions.

Oh letters of complaint I bet that shook the British war machine to it's core alright :rolleyes: also what is being done here is an official state commemoration of the RIC men who fought and died to maintain british occupation of our country they provided intelligence that led to the murders of Irish freedom fighters. The state is conferring legitimacy on the very forces that fought to stop the state from being created it's lunacy and complete revisionism no doubt being pushed by the unionist wing of FG Flanagan Richmond and that poppy wearing eejit in Roscommon.

whisky_galore

I'll be having a good chuckle at barstool republican outrage, the nearest they'll ever get to a war zone is Call Of Duty.

is_that_so

This is a decade of commemorations so there will be occasions where some people will feed a need to be offended. It's just a recognition of a period our history, warts and all. It's always better to be offended by the living so at least you can get back at them.

BarryD2

ZuluDawn2020 wrote: »

Apparently a ceremony is going to be held attended by the Minister for Justice and Garda Commissioner to comemorate members of the DMP (Dublin Metropolitan Police) and RIC (Royal Irish Constabulary) killed during the Irish Revolution. Does anyone else think this is grotesque?

No, it seems perfectly reasonable and appropriate in a so called decade of commemoration.

CrankyHaus

is_that_so wrote: »

This is a decade of commemorations so there will be occasions where some people will feed a need to be offended. It's just a recognition of a period our history, warts and all.

So we should commemorate, that is have a state ceremony of respect for, anything, any Irish person has ever done, ever?



Looking forward to the state commemoration of Lord Haw Haw so: "Shure he was just a Galway lad who was mad for the Nazis, people need to move on".


Eoin Duffy's contingent of Fascist volunteers in the Spanish Civil War:
"Irishmen no different than the rest of us, only barstool Republicans and Communists would have a problem with paying our respects to their courage".


Remembering our history "warts and all" would acknowledge the reality of the RIC rather than whitewash it. This proposal is the opposite of remembering our history; it is a proposal to forget our history and replace it with lies.

Sunny Disposition

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

No one deserves to be killed for either their political beliefs or simply doing their job.


No one.

Of course some people deserve to be killed for doing their job, puerile nonsense. Scientists working on chemical weapons for rogue regimes for example.

weldoninhio

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Indeed myth has it that Countess Markievicz dispatched one of those "that deserved to be killed" by shooting him in the head in Stephens Green. Apparently this constable on foot tried to usher the Fenians out of the park so she shot him dead, for this she's a hero and he's almost forgotten.....

And a myth it indeed is. Not hard to dispel.

Sunny Disposition

CrankyHaus wrote: »

So we should commemorate, that is have a state ceremony of respect for, anything, any Irish person has ever done, ever?



Looking forward to the state commemoration of Lord Haw Haw so: "Shure he was just a Galway lad who was mad for the Nazis, people need to move on".


Eoin Duffy's contingent of Fascist volunteers in the Spanish Civil War:
"Irishmen no different than the rest of us, only barstool Republicans and Communists would have a problem with paying our respects to their courage".


Remembering our history "warts and all" would acknowledge the reality of the RIC rather than whitewash it. This proposal is the opposite of remembering our history; it is a proposal to forget our history and replace it with lies.

If there was a ceremony for everyone killed in the conflict maybe one could say fair enough, but picking out the side responsible for both the conflict and denying the population freedom is outrageous.

KWAG2019

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

If there was a ceremony for everyone killed in the conflict maybe one could say fair enough, but picking out the side responsible for both the conflict and denying the population freedom is outrageous.

In that event the State must also honour those who actively fought and those who died for our freedom in a separate ceremony. The reluctance to do this reveals how deeply revisionism, false inclusivity, appeasement and lack of national self respect has become ingrained in public discourse. It is deeply shameful.

Kermit.de.frog

The keyboard republicans and assassins are out in force on this thread :pac:

is_that_so

CrankyHaus wrote: »

So we should commemorate, that is have a state ceremony of respect for, anything, any Irish person has ever done, ever?



Looking forward to the state commemoration of Lord Haw Haw so: "Shure he was just a Galway lad who was mad for the Nazis, people need to move on".


Eoin Duffy's contingent of Fascist volunteers in the Spanish Civil War:
"Irishmen no different than the rest of us, only barstool Republicans and Communists would have a problem with paying our respects to their courage".


Remembering our history "warts and all" would acknowledge the reality of the RIC rather than whitewash it. This proposal is the opposite of remembering our history; it is a proposal to forget our history and replace it with lies.

Ah and out comes the stupid whataboutery stuff. If you're looking for a fight on the internet I'm the wrong person for it. I accept this decade concept, long as it is, as a good thing. These decisions are not made by stupid people and on balance have made the right calls so far. If you really have an issue take it up with them.

CrankyHaus

is_that_so wrote: »

Ah and out comes the stupid whataboutery stuff. If you're looking for a fight on the internet I'm the wrong person for it. I accept this decade concept, long as it is, as a good thing. These decisions are not made by stupid people and on balance have made the right calls so far. If you really have an issue take it up with them.

So you cannot explain why the state should commemorate the RIC. But you're happy to support this proposal because the "decisions are not made by stupid people".

I'm not trying to have an argument with you. I'm trying to identify a legitimate reason why the state should commemorate the RIC and so far nobody on this thread has advanced one. You should question the people making these decisions, not have blind faith in them. It's your history and you should never let somebody else rewrite it for.

Hamsterchops

The RIC like the RUC were by and large a good force, and yes of course there should be a ceremony for them.

PS Obviously I am not a hardened Republican

...waits for machine gun bullets to be sprayed all over my post....

saabsaab

CrankyHaus wrote: »

A commemoration is by definition respectful remembrance. Unless otherwise clearly stated this is an endorsement of everything the RIC did and the language used by those proposing it clearly attempts to legitimise their actions.

A state remembrance of the Irishmen in the RIC that made clear it did not endorse the RIC itself would be a very different matter than what is being proposed.

That's a good point, I wouldn't like to see the 'black and tans' or the 'Auxies' commemorated just the rank and file RIC. Is that really the case though? See quote from IT article.



'The names of 11 RIC and four DMP men killed in 1919 during the first year of the War of Independence were read out.


Speaking to The Irish Times after the service, Mr Flanagan said he attended because the policemen involved were “doing their job. They were murdered in the line of duty.
“They were doing what police officers do. As they saw it they were protecting communities from harm. They were maintaining the rule of law. These are fundamental to police services everywhere.”
Mr Flanagan described himself as a “pluralist who believes in the co-existence of peoples of different traditions on the island coming together.
“As Minister for Justice, I acknowledge that being a policeman is a very tough job. The men that we commemorated were all killed in the line of duty.”
He added: “I believe very strongly in the spirit of the Good Friday Agreement and, in the spirit of co-existence. These are sensitive ceremonies and they are very important to me.
“The fundamental basis of the Good Friday Agreement brings people together. I see the fundamental principle of Brexit being the opposite.
“These are difficult and sensitive issues. We cannot any longer ignore them or be partisan. I believe I have a duty as Minister for Justice to police officers.”
The decision by the State to hold a service to remember the RIC and DMP has been welcomed by the Historical & Reconciliatory Police (HARP) Society set up in 2012 to remember Irish policemen killed on duty between 1836 and 1922 of whom 525 were killed during the War of Independence.
Spokesman Jim Herlihy said: “The Harp Society are delighted with the initiative now taken by Government in at long last hosting the forthcoming event in Dublin Castle and are also in hope that such an event will lead to the provision of a fitting permanent memorial to commemorate the sacrifice made by the 642 members of Royal Irish Constabulary and the 30 members of the Dublin Metropolitan Police between 1836 and 1922.”


Mr Herlihy said his extensive research over the last number of years reveals that 10,936 Black and Tans and 2,264 Auxiliaries served in Ireland during the War of Independence.
Of those, 152 Black and Tans and 44 Auxiliaries were killed.
His research also reveals that 883 Black and Tans were Irish-born and 126 Auxiliaries were Irish.'

FTA69

They weren't "murdered in the line of duty" they were killed as part of a war of liberation in which they fought with an anti-democratic imperialist force. The way Flanagan is banging on you'd swear the Irish struggle for independence was some sort of criminal conspiracy or something.

Absolutely unbelievable commentary from a government minister. The people who fought for and established Irish independence were "murderers" while the forces of British occupation were "good men doing their duty".

Utterly pathetic.

realitykeeper

ZuluDawn2020 wrote: »

Apparently a ceremony is going to be held attended by the Minister for Justice and Garda Commissioner to comemorate members of the DMP (Dublin Metropolitan Police) and RIC (Royal Irish Constabulary) killed during the Irish Revolution.

Does anyone else think this is grotesque?

You beat me to it ZuluDawn. But, if they are determined to remember the fallen RIC I suggest a compromise. Let us turn it into a celebration with effigies of those killed, tea & biscuits, fireworks, comedic re-enactments and so forth. Something like Halloween.

The RIC feature in this movie, Black 47. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhBRW4cnOB4

It shows them preventing starving people from getting food, evicting people in the middle of winter and leaving them freeze to death (the famine happened during the mini ice age of the 19th century).

realitykeeper

super_furry wrote: »

Not at all.

If there's ever going to be any hopes of a United Ireland, it's going to be crucial to show that unionists and loyalists will be respected and treated as equal in unity.

With respect, if a united Ireland happens, it will be because that is what a majority on both sides of the border decide. Strength of feeling by a minority does not (and should not) increase their representation.

Giving unionists the same democratic rights as everyone else is fair. Not 30%, not gerrymandering, just democracy.

realitykeeper

r3nu4l wrote: »

This, a thousand times! A true Republican wants a United Ireland, not a 'win'. The only way to successfully achieve that is to ensure all citizens of the country feel welcome and a part of that country. '

Democracy does not work that way. Look at Brexit. Look at the UK Labour supporters. How do you think US democrats felt when Trump got elected. What about the pro choice people before abortion was legalized or the pro life people now. Sorry but in a democracy, the majority rule.

Pádraig Pearse was a paedophile and all the Sinn Fein folks love him.

realitykeeper

Deleted User wrote: »

Pádraig Pearse was a paedophile and all the Sinn Fein folks love him.

King Billy was gay and a lot of red neck unionists love him.

realitykeeper

realitykeeper wrote: »

King Billy was gay and a lot of red neck unionists love him.

Evidence? Also, there's nothing wrong with been gay.

www.irishtimes.com/news/paving-the-way-to-hell-1.1147618%3fmode=amp

realitykeeper

Deleted User wrote: »

Evidence? Also, there's nothing wrong with been gay.

www.irishtimes.com/news/paving-the-way-to-hell-1.1147618%3fmode=amp

I didn`t say there was anything wrong with being gay but a lot of the orange order types are a bit right wing and might not want to be seen associating with gay people. The Dutch language movie Admiral is well worth a watch if you can find it but here is a scene where Prince Billy meets the King of England.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSrg9fp2fHs

Scoundrel

FTA69 wrote: »

They weren't "murdered in the line of duty" they were killed as part of a war of liberation in which they fought with an anti-democratic imperialist force. The way Flanagan is banging on you'd swear the Irish struggle for independence was some sort of criminal conspiracy or something.

Absolutely unbelievable commentary from a government minister. The people who fought for and established Irish independence were "murderers" while the forces of British occupation were "good men doing their duty".

Utterly pathetic.

Like father like son I suppose the irony is of course that Michael Collins the FG hero was in fact partly responsible for the campaign against the DMP in Dublin and personally ordered the executions of some of them.