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RIC and DMP to be commemorated this month
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Billcarson wrote: »
What and you'd be one of the rebels? Like all the millions of Irish who weren't.
This is the problem with our history, its so intertwined and complex. Unlike other colonial nations, its spread over centuries. We have no idea if 200 years ago our forefathers were agents/supporters of the crown. I mean many of our national heroes weren't even really true Republicans. https://www.historytoday.com/archive/wolfe-tone-republican-hero-or-whig-opportunist
I mean we had the idea yesterday that Flanagan was a decent Irish name. like wtf does that really mean when half of our greatest people are anglo irish? as unpalatable as that is. During the famine, there was a large number of people who spoke no English, remnants of the Cromwell purges. They lived in hovels in fields etc on the margins of Irish society. Many were paid/given a ferry ticket by landlords, governments, agents to leave. These were seen by Lady Gregory and people of the time as the last true Gaels. The remnants of an old Ireland. And many even sympathetic people, were glad to see them gone. Just cause your name is O'Brien it doesn't mean your directly purely descended from the clan.
Most people arguing against the outcry are only highlighting the absolute ludicrousness of people going on about a border poll.
Its not going to happen if this is whats going to go on. The same thing happened in 1987 when Garett Fitzgerald honored ww1 soldiers. It was a large part of him losing the next election.
It should have been done as recommended by Ferriter but still, it goes to show we have a long way to go.
Just cause people look at the ideas of romantic irish nationalism and question them, doesn't make them an enemy of the state.
And people go on about brexit nationalists and US fly over state patriots with a straight face. We're as nationalist as anybody.
How are people going to react for the civil war. I read on the journal comments more than one comment this morning that pro treaty = west brit. I mean ffs.
We have a great history and we can be proud of those who fought the yoke of colonialism for decades. But we need to acknowledge many of those quirks we have as a nation.
We don't have a long way to go at all.
If you listened to the reasonable debate on S'O'R you would realise that.
Flanagan's solo run here (it did not have the sanction/blessing of the Expert Group nor the all party committee, nor it seems, a lot of the FG party themselves) was an attempt to state honour the RIC and DMP.
That is wholly wrong at any time and Flanagan has been made well aware of that. If he genuinely felt that he was doing the right thing he wouldn't have cut it so quickly.
The RIC/DMP should be recognised and in no way in the wide world have they been ignored or written out of our history. What the people of Ireland are saying very clearly is that there is a way to do this but it is not by frmally commemorating them as a state.
NOBODY has stopped or criticised the yearly commemorations by the Policing group (TALK?) nor has anyone any objection to their role and the roles of their members being remembered, good bad or indifferent.
What has to stop here is the depiction of this as a whitewashing or exclusion.0 -
Plumbthedepths wrote: »Excellent post, well put.
Not well put at it was purely misdirection.
If you follow the arguement that the DMP/RIC should not be commorated as they are traitors to Republican ideals and a UI - they worked within the British cog.
It would also mean that the very founders of this state the pro-treaty should not be commemorated in anyway as they were traitors to Irish Republicanism and a UI. Collins after all used British guns on his own countrymen.
The hypocrisy is astounding just because people refuse see nuance and individuals in the British forces it is much easier to castigate them and treat them as 'other'.
Yet the current state of the ROI venerates BOTH those from the pro-treaty side and anti-treaty side, but those from the British side are ALL viewed as abhorrent.
Presently - it is cognitive dissonance at it's very best -
IRA - anti-treaty and pro treaty = the good guys / maybe / kinda sorta
British = the bad guys or collaborators
That is before you even get into the discussion about the Provo's and recent history!
People seem to be willing to create all sorts of nuance and caveats for the Irish Republican side. But do not even want to countenance any nuance when it comes to the British - or those on the British side.
It is pathetic stuff.Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.
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FrancieBrady wrote: »
We don't have a long way to go at all.
If you listened to the reasonable debate on S'O'R you would realise that.
Flanagan's solo run here (it did not have the sanction/blessing of the Expert Group nor the all party committee, nor it seems, a lot of the FG party themselves) was an attempt to state honour the RIC and DMP.
That is wholly wrong at any time and Flanagan has been made well aware of that. If he genuinely felt that he was doing the right thing he wouldn't have cut it so quickly.
The RIC/DMP should be recognised and in no way in the wide world have they been ignored or written out of our history. What the people of Ireland are saying very clearly is that there is a way to do this but it is not by frmally commemorating them as a state.
NOBODY has stopped or criticised the yearly commemorations by the Policing group (TALK?) nor has anyone any objection to their role and the roles of their members being remembered, good bad or indifferent.
What has to stop here is the depiction of this as a whitewashing or exclusion.
You are obviously a very intelligent and reasonable Republican/Nationalist. I respect that. I have no issue with that. But seriously this isn't the case if you take a cursory glance at any journal comments, reddit go to a pub in the inner city (which i do) or even the suburbs etc. I mean i know Mary Lou and a few of her mates went to private schools which probably makes them reasonable/enlightened enough, but many many nationalists in this country are far from reasonable as we have seen in the past year.
Flanagan and Varadkar being called tans, or varadkars protestant schooling been called out etc isn't reasoned debate. Flanagan and the lily thing is an example of narratives been twisted. I mean i'm waiting for Collins' remembrance and will laugh if i see some of the stuff. Like i said i read more than one comment this morning that pro treaty=west brit. It had hundreds of likes.
Now if we discount all that as online echo chamber stuff (which it isn't as has been proved) then sure in the mainstream (where people can be sued) it seems to be measured.
I think we do have a long way to go.
Lets take the compromises needed in any hypothetical UI. I can see many many people having the same issues. " oh why should we celebrate the 12th", why are we recognising their Britishness etc.
Its foolish to pretend otherwise. There is thousands of pieces of evidence. Unionists obviously just as bad.
Look i'm not pro commemoration, its not the cross i'd die on. When i watch the wind that shakes the barley i feel the anger rising and the patriot stir. i'm just concerned that this is a sign of things to come and like gormdubhgorm some of the hypocrisy and revisionism sticks in my craw.0 -
gormdubhgorm wrote: »You are going on about how the British discouraged the Irish language etc.
If Ireland is should a proud nation/a real nation why does it not converse in it's own language rather than piecemeal stuff.
The irony that we are conversing in English on a thread where many view themselves as republicans and nationalists, seem lost on many including you.
Yet on the other hand people seem to try and create the narrative that all the British were the oppressors and evil which is silly. With no nuance whatsoever and refuse to even remember the RIC/DMP. Yet are conversing in the language of thier former 'colonial masters' still!.
It's comical stuff - a colony mindset.
More mythmaking. WHO is refusing to remember the RIC/DMP?
What the Irish people did in 24 hrs was to refuse to allow a Minister formally commemorate the DMP/RIC precisely because they 'remember/recognise/know what these forces did and were involved in.
They refused to be complicit in sanitising what was done because like me, formal commemoration would do that.
The DMP/RIC have their place in our history and are fully recognised. I genuinely believe that Flanagan thought exactly like you, that Irish people didn't know what the RIC/DMP were involved in...he got well told on that one, as the objection came from right across the social and political spectrum.0 -
gormdubhgorm wrote: »Not well put at it was purely misdirection.
If you follow the arguement that the DMP/RIC should not be commorated as they are traitors to Republican ideals and a UI - they worked within the British cog.
It would also mean that the very founders of this state the pro-treaty should not be commemorated in anyway as they were traitors to Irish Republicanism and a UI. Collins after all used British guns on his own countrymen.
The hypocrisy is astounding just because people refuse see nuance and individuals in the British forces it is much easier to castigate them and treat them as 'other'.
Yet the current state of the ROI venerates BOTH those from the pro-treaty side and anti-treaty side, but those from the British side are ALL viewed as abhorrent.
Presently - it is cognitive dissonance at it's very best -
IRA - anti-treaty and pro treaty = the good guys / maybe / kinda sorta
British = the bad guys or collaborators
That is before you even get into the discussion about the Provo's and recent history!
People seem to be willing to create all sorts of nuance and caveats for the Irish Republican side. But do not even want to countenance any nuance when it comes to the British - or those on the British side.
It is pathetic stuff.
The RIC were seen as an instrument of rule of a foreign occupier. "Irish Republicanism" has nothing to do with it, the RIC were used to oppose Irish independence in the form of the Free State, decades before there was any republic, and was only disbanded after the War of Independence.0 -
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One of my great great grandfathers was a member of the R.I.C. (albeit 50 years before the War of Independence). I also had great grandfather on the other side of my family who fought for the British army in the Boer war (was too old to fight in WWI). Granted neither of them died while serving the crown but I'm neither ashamed or proud of both these men's involvement in the British forces, it was their decision, not mine (If it were my choice I probably wouldn't, and the important word there is "choice") but I'm sure at the end of the day these men were more concerned about putting bread on the table for their wives and children.
Having said all that I do think the decision initially made to hold this commemoration was ill judged and not thought out properly.0 -
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/ric-row-threatens-to-drag-us-into-a-dangerous-place-1.4133186?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fopinion%2Fmajority-of-ric-men-and-ira-opponents-born-on-the-same-land-1.4133186
Good article from Fergal Keane around it.
Makes the point about the social media age. "The age of social media does the opposite. Slogans replace intelligent appraisal. We risk descending into the arid wilderness of name calling. To ask that we take a broader view or tolerate an opposing idea does not merit recourse to catch-calls like West Brit or Blueshirt."0 -
Okay so now we've reached the final argument in favour of commemorating the RIC:
"The outrage over commemorating the RIC is evidence of the intolerant, narrow minded nationalism of the Irish masses, on a par with Trump's MAGA hordes. Ye have failed the test of tolerance and a United Ireland shall never be yours [insert evil cackling]"
I won't even bother responding to such patent nonsense, which Francie and others have cogently refuted in their posts above.0 -
FrancieBrady wrote: »More mythmaking. WHO is refusing to remember the RIC/DMP?
What the Irish people did in 24 hrs was to refuse to allow a Minister formally commemorate the DMP/RIC precisely because they 'remember/recognise/know what these forces did and were involved in.
They refused to be complicit in sanitising what was done because like me, formal commemoration would do that.
The DMP/RIC have their place in our history and are fully recognised. I genuinely believe that Flanagan thought exactly like you, that Irish people didn't know what the RIC/DMP were involved in...he got well told on that one, as the objection came from right across the social and political spectrum.
Again you are assuming that the RIC and DMP have no nuance and are all the one. You are basically terrified of humanising them because you cannot class them all as 'other' then.
McDonnell who was shot at Solohedbeg was an RIC constable a widower, with five kids. Shot for three boxes of gelignite. Also he was a fleuent Irish speaker.
More of an Irish person than many on this thread who castigate all the RIC/DMP as one because of ignorance. Plus it does not suit thier narrative.
Yet here you are conversing in English as your first language, yet you consider yourself more of an 'Irishman' than the likes of McDonnell of the RIC outnumbered and outgunned with his comrade O'Connell, against Robinson et al.
'Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam' as Pearse saidGuff about stuff, and stuff about guff.
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CrankyHaus wrote: »Okay so now we've reached the final argument in favour of commemorating the RIC:
"The outrage over commemorating the RIC is evidence of the intolerant, narrow minded nationalism of the Irish masses, on a par with Trump's MAGA hordes. Ye have failed the test of tolerance and a United Ireland shall never be yours [insert evil cackling]"
I won't even bother respinding to such patent nonsense, which Francie has cogently refuted.
Yeah misdirection, and mentioning Trump is much easier. Trump has more Irish than most on this thread I would say. Nationalist's defending the cause me arse.Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.
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CrankyHaus wrote: »Okay so now we've reached the final argument in favour of commemorating the RIC:
"The outrage over commemorating the RIC is evidence of the intolerant, narrow minded nationalism of the Irish masses, on a par with Trump's MAGA hordes. Ye have failed the test of tolerance and a United Ireland shall never be yours [insert evil cackling]"
I won't even bother respinding to such patent nonsense, which Francie has cogently refuted.
But you have responded. And you can't really comprehend, as i don't think any of the opposing views were about the actual commemoration, or in support, rather the outrage/response around it. I myself said what Ferriter suggested was correct. But the level of outrage, less reasoned than Francie has suggested, would point to particular difficulties around a border poll and any post re-unification. Which is of course, poorly as it was done, the reason Flanagan and co are doing it. they hardly have a hard on for the British and the tans as has been suggested. In their mind, long term at that, any say in re-unification, would cement their position in history. Its not rocket science like. They are playing a long game. A very long game, while also trying to prevent serious bloodshed. Which will happen if the likes of you and your smart arse analysis is wide spread. If we had a border poll say after the next election, and democratically, somehow it went through, i would bet my life savings/house on two things happening. 1) bloodshed/riots and 2) Nationalists (not the francie's of the world) blowing their minds at losing some of the symbols of the Republic, hence more bloodshed.
Francie was far more tolerant and intelligent in his response than yourself.0 -
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It's clear that the real reason for Fergal Keane's attitude is his 'tainted blood'.https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/ric-row-threatens-to-drag-us-into-a-dangerous-place-1.4133186?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fopinion%2Fmajority-of-ric-men-and-ira-opponents-born-on-the-same-land-1.4133186
Good article from Fergal Keane around it.
Makes the point about the social media age. "The age of social media does the opposite. Slogans replace intelligent appraisal. We risk descending into the arid wilderness of name calling. To ask that we take a broader view or tolerate an opposing idea does not merit recourse to catch-calls like West Brit or Blueshirt."
It is interesting that joining the RIC was transformative in terms of the Hassett family's social and economic status ; I wonder how many of our most wealthy families are the fruit of the RIC poisoned tree.0 -
gormdubhgorm wrote: »Again you are assuming that the RIC and DMP have no nuance they are all the one. You are basically terrified of humanising them because you cannot class them all as 'other' then.
McDonnell who was shot at Solohedbeg was an RIC constable a widower, with five kids. Shot for three boxes of gelignite. Also he was a fleuent Irish speaker.
More of an Irish person than many on this thread who castigate all the RIC/DMP as one because of ignorance. Plus it does not suit thier narrative.
Yet here you are conversing in English as your first language, yet you consider yourself more of an 'Irishman' than the likes of McDonnell of the RIC outnumbered and outgunned with his comrade O'Connell, against Robinson et al.
'Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam' as Pearse said
We can't weep for everyone; of course he was Irish - but he was a traitor to his country.0 -
gormdubhgorm wrote: »It is called cultural appropriation Ireland still speaks in the language of thier former colonial masters predominately, and could not even manage to revive Irish.
The only country in Europe that does not speak it's own language.
Ireland is inundated with English and American media. They are copied and aped.
Yet there is pretenses like the protests against the DMP and RIC to make people feel Irish/or get a nationalist vote. It is a cod.
Utter nonsense. What language does Switzerland speak? Austria, Cyprus.0 -
gormdubhgorm wrote: »Yeah misdirection, and mentioning Trump is much easier. Trump has more Irish than most on this thread I would say. Nationalist's defending the cause me arse.
What on earth are you on about?
To avoid your usual wall of text about whether Irish poetry books were banned before accusing others of misdirection can you please give a straightforward answer to this question:
Why should the Irish State have a ceremony of commemoration for all of the RIC?0 -
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/ric-row-threatens-to-drag-us-into-a-dangerous-place-1.4133186?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fopinion%2Fmajority-of-ric-men-and-ira-opponents-born-on-the-same-land-1.4133186
Good article from Fergal Keane around it.
Makes the point about the social media age. "The age of social media does the opposite. Slogans replace intelligent appraisal. We risk descending into the arid wilderness of name calling. To ask that we take a broader view or tolerate an opposing idea does not merit recourse to catch-calls like West Brit or Blueshirt."
Ah yeah, in the days before social media people would have been fine with commemorating the RIC.0 -
marieholmfan wrote: »We can't weep for everyone; of course he was Irish - but he was a traitor to his country.
He was no traitor, at the time his country would have been the United Kingdom. But whether he personally did or not, his organisation, the RIC, was a body part of whose remit was to oppose the establishment of Irish Independence, either in the form of a full republic or, in what was considered by some a diluted form, as the Free State. It's not exactly fair, but that's history for you.0 -
FrancieBrady wrote: »
You are obviously a very intelligent and reasonable Republican/Nationalist. I respect that. I have no issue with that. But seriously this isn't the case if you take a cursory glance at any journal comments, reddit go to a pub in the inner city (which i do) or even the suburbs etc. I mean i know Mary Lou and a few of her mates went to private schools which probably makes them reasonable/enlightened enough, but many many nationalists in this country are far from reasonable as we have seen in the past year.
Flanagan and Varadkar being called tans, or varadkars protestant schooling been called out etc isn't reasoned debate. Flanagan and the lily thing is an example of narratives been twisted. I mean i'm waiting for Collins' remembrance and will laugh if i see some of the stuff. Like i said i read more than one comment this morning that pro treaty=west brit. It had hundreds of likes.
Now if we discount all that as online echo chamber stuff (which it isn't as has been proved) then sure in the mainstream (where people can be sued) it seems to be measured.
I think we do have a long way to go.
Lets take the compromises needed in any hypothetical UI. I can see many many people having the same issues. " oh why should we celebrate the 12th", why are we recognising their Britishness etc.
Its foolish to pretend otherwise. There is thousands of pieces of evidence. Unionists obviously just as bad.
Could you outline what you mean? A 'long way to go to where, exactly?
Again, I will say as clearly as I can...'appeasement and lying about history' is not 'compromise'.
Agreeing that you are free to interpret history as you wish but you are not free to ignore historical fact, is 'compromise'.
If you look at (and i suggest you look closely) how we approached the 1916 commemorations, we got it majestically and beautifully right...because the advise of the EG was taken and there was full and open discourse in advance of it.
I attended 3 years of seminars in the Abbey in the lead up to 2016 that were addressed by a wide range of speakers from here and conflict zones around the world, dealing with remembrance and commemoration.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s88tsIPaLGs&list=PLL-wClLnRBDrKqSlIliDE3WFDLG9EkG2w
The result imo was a dignified, inclusive national and local year of reflection and remembrance right across the country that listened to and included all voices.
Nobody is trying to 'exclude' the RIC/DMP.
What happened here clearly, is that a few government ministers went totally off script and got it spectacularly wrong and unforgivably undid a lot of that good work.
P.S. The twittersphere and Facebook are here to stay, I largely enjoy it, and recognise the democracy of it, in a way, but I just simply ignore the bile, from all quarters.0 -
I think the Government were using this event as a barometer check on the ROI's willingness to adapt to unification.
They certainly got their answer.
We are many, many decades away from when a mature conversation can take place on the subject.0 -
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facehugger99 wrote: »I think the Government were using this event as a barometer check on the ROI's willingness to adapt to unification.
They certainly got their answer.
We are many, many decides away from when a mature conversation can take place on the subject.
Reunification simply needs 50% + 1 and the willingness to fly the drones.0 -
marieholmfan wrote: »It's clear that the real reason for Fergal Keane's attitude is his 'tainted blood'.
It is interesting that joining the RIC was transformative in terms of the Hassett family's social and economic status ; I wonder how many of our most wealthy families are the fruit of the RIC poisoned tree.
you see this is the issue though. Can you trace right back through your family tree and say in your heart of hearts you're untainted. I'd say its not just the wealthy. I know the history of the docklands and inner city Dublin. Many of the people who didn't come from the country during the famine, came from boats across the Irish sea during the boom period of the late 18th century. Alot of Welsh came apparently. Who are British if we are continuing the pedantic path of identity. I mean two famous names you see from North inner city Dublin give you a clue. Hutch, Parrott. There's tons more
We have a shared history. Its all tainted if you go down your path.
Hence why some of us have an issue, cause its blind hypocrisy.
Fergal Keane in all his writings of Ireland and series on rte has done more for this country than any of us.0 -
marieholmfan wrote: »It's clear that the real reason for Fergal Keane's attitude is his 'tainted blood'.
It is interesting that joining the RIC was transformative in terms of the Hassett family's social and economic status ; I wonder how many of our most wealthy families are the fruit of the RIC poisoned tree.
Do you realise how silly that sounds. Going by that logic all people with Norman names should be ran out it. If you go back far enough - as they were invaders.
Also the descendants of the lads who invited the Vikings in, for the battle of Clontarf - should be stripped of any Irish passports immediately.
Also FG should not be in government because they are traitors to the Republic.
DeValera's descendants have also done well for themselves in politics, and the judiciary. Despite instigating a civil war. Is that a poisoned tree?
Your logic all seems very akin to something from 'der strumer' the creation of 'other' who does not belong with 'us'.
This is the nub of it I think - why there are these protests against the DMC/RIC people need an 'other' narrative.Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.
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Fergal Keane accepted an OBE - he's vermin and he's from a family of vermin.you see this is the issue though. Can you trace right back through your family tree and say in your heart of hearts you're untainted. I'd say its not just the wealthy. I know the history of the docklands and inner city Dublin. Many of the people who didn't come from the country during the famine, came from boats across the Irish sea. I mean two famous names you see from North inner city Dublin give you a clue. Hutch, Parrott. There's tons more
We have a shared history. Its all tainted if you go down your path.
Hence why some of us have an issue, cause its blind hypocrisy.
Fergal Keane in all his writings of Ireland and series on rte has done more for this country than any of us.0 -
gormdubhgorm wrote: »Do you realise how silly that sounds. Going by that logic all people with Norman names should be ran out it. If you go back far enough as they were invaders.
Also the descendants of the lads who invited the Vikings in, in the battle of Clontarf should be stripped of any Irish passports immediately.
Also FG should not be in government because they are traitors to the republic.
DeValera's descendants have also done well for themselves in politics and the judiciary. Despite instigating a civil war. Is that a poisoned tree?
Your logic all seems very akin to something from 'der strumer' the creation of 'other' who does not belong with 'us'.
Exactly its a silly stance, and i presume its why you are so ardent on these points. Its why i am. Its hypocrisy.
Geroge Bernad Shaw, who we honor said - Nationalism must now be added to the refuse pile of superstitions. We are now citizens of the world, and the man who divides the race into elect Irishmen and reprobate foreign devils (especially Englishmen) had better live on the Blaskets where he can admire himself without disturbance. He was highly critical of Irish rebels.
Maybe going by current vernacular we should "cancel" the west brit.
A list of things we should cancel would be apt. Swift? Gandon? Redmond? I mean Joyce was on the fence, mostly nationalist but wrote - "If the Irish programme did not insist on the Irish language I suppose I could call myself a nationalist.As it is, I am content to recognise myself an exile:
and, prophetically, repudiated one".
I mean the way we are heading is Collins will be cancelled.0 -
marieholmfan wrote: »Fergal Keane accepted an OBE - he's vermin and he's from a family of vermin.
Isn't he John B. Keane's nephew? I think the only thing more counter-productive than calling Charlie Flanagan a Tan is getting into all this Achtung! Juden! caper.0 -
facehugger99 wrote: »I think the Government were using this event as a barometer check on the ROI's willingness to adapt to unification.
They certainly got their answer.
We are many, many decades away from when a mature conversation can take place on the subject.
The answer in that case was that the Irish people care very deeply about the past and how it is portrayed.
The logic of that for anyone who thinks there is ambivalence, is that they will care a lot about the future too.
And being unable to accept, as Flanagan still clearly is, that the Irish people will NOT formally commemorate/honour those who were agents in our oppression and in preventing our self determination, can equally be portrayed as 'immature'.0 -
Isn't he John B. Keane's nephew? I think the only thing more counter-productive than calling Charlie Flanagan a Tan is getting into all this Achtung! Juden! caper.
When a man accepts an OBE he casts his own star - but this one is the satanic star of Britan not the holy star of Israel.
Fergal Keane has made his lack of patriotic sentiment quite clear through his own bizarre actions - he owes his loyalty to a foreign queen.0 -
Exactly its a silly stance, and i presume its why you are so ardent on these points. Its why i am. Its hypocrisy.
Geroge Bernad Shaw, who we honor said - Nationalism must now be added to the refuse pile of superstitions. We are now citizens of the world, and the man who divides the race into elect Irishmen and reprobate foreign devils (especially Englishmen) had better live on the Blaskets where he can admire himself without disturbance. He was highly critical of Irish rebels.
Maybe going by current vernacular we should "cancel" the west brit.
You are correct.
Extreme British nationalism is horrendous.
Sad to see so many on here glorifying it.0 -
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