RIC and DMP to be commemorated this month

Nift

Zebra3 wrote: »

You are correct.

Extreme British nationalism is horrendous.

Sad to see so many on here glorifying it.

sure, whatever you think:rolleyes:

Nobody is glorifying British nationalism, only recognizing the complexities of Irish history.

gormdubhgorm

marieholmfan wrote: »

Fergal Keane accepted an OBE - he's vermin and he's from a family of vermin.

Cos he was born in London?
And yet James Connolly fought with the British army - born in Scotland. And I bet you venerate him?

Fergal Keane would have a right laugh at the likes of you.

CrankyHaus

Nift wrote: »

But you have responded. And you can't really comprehend, as i don't think any of the opposing views were about the actual commemoration, or in support, rather the outrage/response around it. I myself said what Ferriter suggested was correct. But the level of outrage, less reasoned than Francie has suggested, would point to particular difficulties around a border poll and any post re-unification. Which is of course, poorly as it was done, the reason Flanagan and co are doing it. they hardly have a hard on for the British and the tans as has been suggested. In their mind, long term at that, any say in re-unification, would cement their position in history. Its not rocket science like. They are playing a long game. A very long game, while also trying to prevent serious bloodshed. Which will happen if the likes of you and your smart arse analysis is wide spread. If we had a border poll say after the next election, and democratically, somehow it went through, i would bet my life savings/house on two things happening. 1) bloodshed/riots and 2) Nationalists (not the francie's of the world) blowing their minds at losing some of the symbols of the Republic, hence more bloodshed.

Francie was far more tolerant and intelligent in his response than yourself.

It's difficult to make sense of your post but in the interests of clarity can you state whether you think this commemoration, in the form proposed by the Government, was a good idea and if so why?


I've repeatedly said on this thread that we can acknowledge that many men in the RIC/DMP may have been decent people with limited opportunities doing their best to serve the law under a corrupt and oppressive system. However there is a huge gap between state recognition and remembrance of that and what has been proposed. I believe that this position is shared by most Irish people.



However the arguments in favour of the commemoration throughout the thread have been dishonest and misleading. I believe the current line of argument advanced by you and Gormdubhgorm, wherein you focus on the "intolerance" of those opposed to the commemoration and harp on about the "complexities" of our history, is merely the latest permutation of that strategy but by all means if I'm wrong I'd be happy to be corrected.

Dyr

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Do you realise how silly that sounds. Going by that logic all people with Norman names should be ran out it. If you go back far enough -

This is the nub of it I think.

Nah.. But we can point and laugh at people who think the French should be running the country now because they have a Norman name and they were told that their great great great great grand daddie got to work in a Castle for Hugh De Grenouille or someone.

It's actually fun to see the level of neurotic blather thats comes tumbling out whenever this topic bubbles over

And, to be honest, I think a lot of it comes from people who've found out their forefathers were playing for the Crown, which is fairly bizarre and actually the embodiment of what the BlueBlack fella is decrying.

weldoninhio

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Cos he was born in London?
And yet James Connolly fought with the British army - born in Scotland. and I bet you venerate him?

Fergal Keane would have a right laugh at the likes of you.

BECAUSE. HE. ACCEPTED. AN. O.B.E. :rolleyes:

marieholmfan

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Cos he was born in London?
And yet James Connolly fought with the British army - born in Scotland. and I bet you venerate him?

Fergal Keane would have a right laugh at the likes of you.

Of course I venerate Connolly

Keane was born in London through no fault of his own but his parents promptly rectified the error.

I think it is safe to assume that Fergal Keane OBE is just some sort of weird freak.

jimgoose

weldoninhio wrote: »

BECAUSE. HE. ACCEPTED. AN. O.B.E. :rolleyes:

Lots of Irish people have. It isn't High Treason, like.

Nift

Nift wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/ric-row-threatens-to-drag-us-into-a-dangerous-place-1.4133186?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fopinion%2Fmajority-of-ric-men-and-ira-opponents-born-on-the-same-land-1.4133186

Good article from Fergal Keane around it.

Makes the point about the social media age. "The age of social media does the opposite. Slogans replace intelligent appraisal. We risk descending into the arid wilderness of name calling. To ask that we take a broader view or tolerate an opposing idea does not merit recourse to catch-calls like West Brit or Blueshirt."

this does remind me of the "Outrage" over Channel four commissioning an Irish writer to produce a comedy, who announced he was going to set it during the Famines years.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057353205
https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/hunger-channel-4-comedy-irish-famine-1889782-Jan2015/

gormdubhgorm

Bambi wrote: »

Nah.. But we can point and laugh at people who think the French should be running the country now because they have a Norman name and they were told that their great great great great grand daddie got to work in a Castle for Hugh De Grenouille or someone.

It's actually fun to see the level of neurotic blather thats comes tumbling out whenever this topic bubbles over

And, to be honest, I think a lot of it comes from people who've found out their forefathers were playing for the Crown, which is fairly bizarre and actually the embodiment of what the BlueBlack fella is decrying.

It is navy actually. I left out the 'Is' - gorm is dubhgorm for convenience.

marieholmfan

jimgoose wrote: »

Lots of Irish people have. It isn't High Treason, like.

It f cking is; you should be stripped of citizenship.

Northern Catholics who get British Passports because they're cheaper shouldn't ever be entitled to Irish passports.

Nift

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Nift wrote: »

Could you outline what you mean? A 'long way to go to where, exactly?

Again, I will say as clearly as I can...'appeasement and lying about history' is not 'compromise'.
Agreeing that you are free to interpret history as you wish but you are not free to ignore historical fact, is 'compromise'.

If you look at (and i suggest you look closely) how we approached the 1916 commemorations, we got it majestically and beautifully right...because the advise of the EG was taken and there was full and open discourse in advance of it.
I attended 3 years of seminars in the Abbey in the lead up to 2016 that were addressed by a wide range of speakers from here and conflict zones around the world, dealing with remembrance and commemoration.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s88tsIPaLGs&list=PLL-wClLnRBDrKqSlIliDE3WFDLG9EkG2w
The result imo was a dignified, inclusive national and local year of reflection and remembrance right across the country that listened to and included all voices.
Nobody is trying to 'exclude' the RIC/DMP.

What happened here clearly, is that a few government ministers went totally off script and got it spectacularly wrong and unforgivably undid a lot of that good work.

P.S. The twittersphere and Facebook are here to stay, I largely enjoy it, and recognise the democracy of it, in a way, but I just simply ignore the bile, from all quarters.

In terms of a United Ireland, as i have laid out clearly enough.

Yes 1916 commemoration went well.

But lets see what happens from now. The civil war one will be interesting.

I don't think a minister went off script. We have a cabinet and hundreds of civil servants around them. It was clearly FG policy as Varadkar backed it all. Coveney, who most likely is the next and better FG leader, is waiting in the long grass. Martin was on the fence waiting. Its clearly a tester for them to gauge the mood imo. Now it seem ill judged, particularly before an election.

I do take issue with you invoking "the people" constantly though. Like i said its clear there is loads of bile being thrown about around this.

I mean we just had somebody say Fergal Keane is tainted. Do you not see how that relates to any problems going froward in a potential new Ireland? If as i propose is a common argument among certain people on the Island.

Dyr

jimgoose wrote: »

Isn't he John B. Keane's nephew? I think the only thing more counter-productive than calling Charlie Flanagan a Tan is getting into all this Achtung! Juden! caper.

A List of things Feargal Keane is not:

a) Vermin
b) A Historian

jimgoose

marieholmfan wrote: »

It f cking is; you should be stripped of citizenship.

Northern Catholics who get British Passports because they're cheaper shouldn't ever be entitled to Irish passports.

OK, I get the picture - I believe we're done here. :pac:

marieholmfan

Bambi wrote: »

A List of things Feargal Keane is not:

a) Vermin
b) A Historian
c) Someone who isn't selling a book
d) a patriot

Fixed that for you Bambi

gormdubhgorm

marieholmfan wrote: »

Of course I venerate Connolly

Keane was born in London through no fault of his own but his parents promptly rectified the error.

I think it is safe to assume that Fergal Keane OBE is just some sort of weird freak.

jimgoose wrote: »

Lots of Irish people have. It isn't High Treason, like.

weldoninhio wrote: »

BECAUSE. HE. ACCEPTED. AN. O.B.E. :rolleyes:

That is just your bigoted nature coming out.
The sad part is it is that mindset that is the driver of these DMP/RIC protests.

It is the equivalent to giving Bono Freedom of Dublin city so he is entitled to graze sheep. It does not mean anything other than a gesture.

There is a certain level of immaturity in this anti-English mindset.
Plus you are conversing in your first language English while doing so... :rolleyes:

Nift

CrankyHaus wrote: »

It's difficult to make sense of your post but in the interests of clarity can you state whether you think this commemoration, in the form proposed by the Government, was a good idea and if so why?


I've repeatedly said on this thread that we can acknowledge that many men in the RIC/DMP may have been decent people with limited opportunities doing their best to serve the law under a corrupt and oppressive system. However there is a huge gap between state recognition and remembrance of that and what has been proposed. I believe that this position is shared by most Irish people.



However the arguments in favour of the commemoration throughout the thread have been dishonest and misleading. I believe the current line of argument advanced by you and Gormdubhgorm, wherein you focus on the "intolerance" of those opposed to the commemoration and harp on about the "complexities" of our history, is merely the latest permutation of that strategy but by all means if I'm wrong I'd be happy to be corrected.

well i'm having trouble making sense of your post so i suppose we're in a bit of a bind. I've laid out all my points around it. I clearly stated that Ferriters initial suggestion was apt. I have an issue around the responses. I never said i was pro commemoration. This morning i have read on numerous different places, Varadkars protestant schooling being called into question, his indian heritage, flanagan being a tan, Collins being a west brit, RIC the equivalent of Nazis, people being tainted if there's any question of divided loyalties.

Are you saying our history isn't complex and nuanced? I mean yesterday somebody compared it to the congo and Vietnam. Ireland through different guises has been occupied for a millenia. The congo was "discovered" in 1870. There's far more disingenuous arguments being put forward.

jimgoose

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

That is just your bigoted nature coming out.
The sad part is it is that mindset that is the driver of these DMP/RIC protests.

It is the equivalent to giving Bono Freedom of Dublin city so he is entitled to graze sheep. It does not mean anything other than a gesture.

There is a certain level of immaturity in this anti-English mindset.
Plus you are conversing in your first language English while doing so... :rolleyes:

Why are you quoting me there? I know this is complicated, because I oppose the RIC commemoration and said so in my first post in this thread, but I also don't consider an Irish person accepting an OBE or MBE a problem.

gormdubhgorm

marieholmfan wrote: »

It f cking is; you should be stripped of citizenship.

Northern Catholics who get British Passports because they're cheaper shouldn't ever be entitled to Irish passports.

I would go further everyone should attain fluency in Irish, before they are allowed to attain an Irish passport....
North and South!

GarIT

Leo has lost my vote, although it was already pretty much gone with Maria Bailey not being banned from FG events, GO Ahead taking over Dublin Bus routes, and the broadband plan.

Immature for not commerating racism, rape, torture and murder, what has he been smoking. Do the French commerate the Gestapo? They were the police in France after all for a time.

Dyr

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

It is navy actually. I left out the 'Is' - gorm is dubhgorm for convenience.

It's not actually, that would be "Dúghorm"

gormdubhgorm

jimgoose wrote: »

Why are you quoting me there? I know this is complicated, because I oppose the RIC commemoration and said so in my first post in this thread, but I also don't consider an Irish person accepting an OBE or MBE a problem.

Yeah sorry you just got put in with those other two - gombeens.

marieholmfan

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I would go further everyone should attain fluency in Irish, before they are allowed to attain an Irish passport....
North and South!

Maith Thu!

gormdubhgorm

Bambi wrote: »

It's not actually, that would be "Dúghorm"

Well that is the shorten form I prefer to go by the CP programme.
None of the fancy stuff for me!

FrancieBrady

Nift wrote: »

FrancieBrady wrote: »

In terms of a United Ireland, as i have laid out clearly enough.

Yes 1916 commemoration went well.

But lets see what happens from now. The civil war one will be interesting.

I don't think a minister went off script. We have a cabinet and hundreds of civil servants around them. It was clearly FG policy as Varadkar backed it all. Coveney, who most likely is the next and better FG leader, is waiting in the long grass. Martin was on the fence waiting. Its clearly a tester for them to gauge the mood imo. Now it seem ill judged, particularly before an election.

I do take issue with you invoking "the people" constantly though. Like i said its clear there is loads of bile being thrown about around this.

I mean we just had somebody say Fergal Keane is tainted. Do you not see how that relates to any problems going froward in a potential new Ireland? If as i propose is a common argument among certain people on the Island.

You seem to think that a UI is going to be some sort of nirvana of total respect and happiness.
It won't be and it cannot be, there is still a real world out there. People will still say things that are silly, or wrong or to enflame.
Maybe learning how to cope with that proportionately might be an idea, going forward?

BTW, I think you are totally wrong on the 'FG policy' thing and that it was a tester of sorts. I am not sure why you are giving a party credence for being that clever.
Flanagan was very cagey on who was responsible for this on radio yesterday and there may be fallout yet for his attempt to land others in it.

marieholmfan

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Well that is the shorten form I prefer to go by the CP programme.
None of the fancy stuff for me!

Well done on using Irish anyway!

gormdubhgorm

marieholmfan wrote: »

Maith Thu!

It would rule out plenty here, who think they are more 'Irish' than a fluent Irish speaker in RIC uniform who was killed in Solohedbeg 21st January 1919.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

It would rule out plenty here, who think they are more 'Irish' than a fluent Irish speaker in RIC uniform who was killed in Solohedbeg 21st January 1919.

Who exactly thinks this?

marieholmfan

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

It would rule out plenty here, who think they are more 'Irish' than a fluent Irish speaker in RIC uniform who was killed in Solohedbeg 21st January 1919.

Good point but no one is saying he wasn't Irish.

J Mysterio

Aegir wrote: »

this does remind me of the "Outrage" over Channel four commissioning an Irish writer to produce a comedy, who announced he was going to set it during the Famines years.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057353205
https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/hunger-channel-4-comedy-irish-famine-1889782-Jan2015/

But that is outrageous. How anyone in their right mind could think that a period fitting for comedy is beyond me.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Who exactly thinks this?

Plenty do - because they are protesting against a commemoration for the RIC/DMP. But they do not want to think of the likes of O'Donnell - Mayoman spoke the language of his land fluently . Earned money for his family. His kids were left orphans