RIC and DMP to be commemorated this month

Nift

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Nift wrote: »

You seem to think that a UI is going to be some sort of nirvana of total respect and happiness.
It won't be and it cannot be, there is still a real world out there. People will still say things that are silly, or wrong or to enflame.
Maybe learning how to cope with that proportionately might be an idea, going forward?

BTW, I think you are totally wrong on the 'FG policy' thing and that it was a tester of sorts. I am not sure why you are giving a party credence for being that clever.
Flanagan was very cagey on who was responsible for this on radio yesterday and there may be fallout yet for his attempt to land others in it.

Ok i think we'll just move on cause i clearly stated it would be the opposite of nirvana of total respect. I said i would bet my house there will be bloodshed. From both. I 100 per cent believe that there will not be a United Ireland in my lifetime. I'm 35.

That's why i believe FG took this stance. Either believing people would tolerate it, testing the waters, or just being naive enough.

Yeah it probably wasn't full blown approved but do people really think Leo would back it as leader if it was particularly as far back as yesterday? Like its just as naive to believe its cause FG are west brits. Its clearly a sop to the new ireland/tolerance/PC culture as well as to the North. Maybe Leo backed Flanagan cause he's a supporter and in the face of Coveney/election needs all the backing.

It has backfired, no question. But in my mind its a sign that we are not ready yet for the discussion around a UI. You may be but "the people" ( whovever they really are) are not.

If i had the money i'd place a large bet with you it won't happen. I'm that confident. I would love a United Ireland and all the possibilities it would bring. But thats in my dream world.

gormdubhgorm

marieholmfan wrote: »

Good point but no one is saying he wasn't Irish.

Yes they are they are lumping him into the 'crown forces' - the oppressors without a scintilla of nuance.
That is what all the DMP/RIC protesters are doing, and he was more Irish than many of these 'protesters' in my view.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Plenty do - because they are protesting against a commemoration for the RIC/DMP. But they do not want to think of the likes of O'Donnell - Mayoman spoke the language of his land fluently . Earned money for his family. His kids were left orphans

You said that there were:

plenty here, who think they are more 'Irish' than a fluent Irish speaker in RIC uniform who was killed in Solohedbeg 21st January 1919.

You have been asked who those people are.

I am not protesting a formal state commemoration of the DMP/RIC because i think I am 'more Irish' than some of those who served, I am protesting because I do not think our state should be commemorating organisations which tried to undermine the formation of that state in various ways.

Fann Linn

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Yes they are they are lumping him into the 'crown forces' - the oppressors without a scintilla of nuance.
That is what all the DMP/RIC protesters are doing, and he was more Irish than many of these 'protesters' in my view.

But they were the Crown forces. It's not that really hard to grasp.

CrankyHaus

Nift wrote: »

well i'm having trouble making sense of your post so i suppose we're in a bit of a bind. I've laid out all my points around it. I clearly stated that Ferriters initial suggestion was apt. I have an issue around the responses. This morning i have read on numerous different places, Varadkars protestant schooling being called into question, his indian heritage, flanagan being a tan, Collins being a west brit, RIC the equivalent of Nazis, people being tainted if there's any question of divided loyalties.

I haven't seen most of that so I don't know if it's true or not. I won't deny that there is a lurking undercurrent of vocal anti-English bile in Ireland, which I don't approve of.

However it's understandable that it exists in the context of centuries of British Rule. And it's not remotely representative of most Irish people, who have overwhemingly taken or supported pragmatic and nuanced approaches to issues like the Good Friday Referendum, our minority Anglo Irish community or recognition of the complex loyalties of Irish people under British Rule.

In fact the proposed RIC Commemoration and it's tin-eared whitewashing of an oppressive force is what fuelled any reinvigoration of this bile and those behind it that may have occurred. And conflation of anyone opposed to the Commemoration with those few bigots only further buttresses and emboldens them.

farmchoice

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Yes they are they are lumping him into the 'crown forces' - the oppressors without a scintilla of nuance.
That is what all the DMP/RIC protesters are doing, and he was more Irish than many of these 'protesters' in my view.

i haven't seen anyone suggest that a member of the RIC was less Irish for their membership. but being Irish is not in of its self any kind of virtue or thing that needs to be commemorated or for that matter condemned.


being a member of the RIC in 1920 is another matter.

Nift

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Yes they are they are lumping him into the 'crown forces' - the oppressors without a scintilla of nuance.
That is what all the DMP/RIC protesters are doing, and he was more Irish than many of these 'protesters' in my view.

I don't know if there is any point continuing this. I was just told i'm expecting nirvana, when i clearly stated its going to be the polar opposite.

People are too entrenched in their ways to see your point.

I'll leave this one here, from the opposing view -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGoLr-3XcRM (2013 but do we really think its any better) , in terms of the joke around a border poll being demanded. People are taking the coolaid by the drip if they think there isn't Republicans who think along the same lines, particularly if their beloved symbols were taken away.

Neither side can put themselves into the others shoes. Nobody can see the nuance you speak of.

Lets just say FG are west brits, Flanagan a tan, Vardakar a closest Tory, the RIC are evil nazi scum, Fergal Keane a soup taking OBE clutching brit. Its probably easier. Tear down Georgian Dublin i say. Brian Boru courted vikings, burn his memory. Sean Russell mistakenly found himself on a German sub.

There is no nuance. Pure blood gaels = good, Brits = bad.

FrancieBrady

Nift wrote: »

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Ok i think we'll just move on cause i clearly stated it would be the opposite of nirvana of total respect. I said i would bet my house there will be bloodshed. From both. I 100 per cent believe that there will not be a United Ireland in my lifetime. I'm 35.

That's why i believe FG took this stance. Either believing people would tolerate it, testing the waters, or just being naive enough.

Yeah it probably wasn't full blown approved but do people really think Leo would back it as leader if it was particularly as far back as yesterday? Like its just as naive to believe its cause FG are west brits. Its clearly a sop to the new ireland/tolerance/PC culture as well as to the North. Maybe Leo backed Flanagan cause he's a supporter and in the face of Coveney/election needs all the backing.

It has backfired, no question. But in my mind its a sign that we are not ready yet for the discussion around a UI. You may be but "the people" ( whovever they really are) are not.

If i had the money i'd place a large bet with you it won't happen. I'm that confident. I would love a United Ireland and all the possibilities it would bring. But thats in my dream world.

The discussion on a UI has begun, ages ago at executive level. See the work of the all party committee. It has also begun in Britain, see the work of universities there, in NI and here in the south.
Not sure what planet you are living on this last while, but with Brexit that discussion is only going to amplify.

Sorry again...but what possible conclusions could Leo, Charlie etc have garnered had this plan succeeded and the commemoration had gone ahead?

Have we just thrown away a chance to get FG fully onboard the UI express?

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You said that there were:



You have been asked who those people are.

I am not protesting a formal state commemoration of the DMP/RIC because i think I am 'more Irish' than some of those who served, I am protesting because I do not think our state should be commemorating organisations which tried to undermine the formation of that state in various ways.

Why stop there?
In that case you should be protesting against the current government in it's entirety non-stop because after all they are partitionists.


SF are collaborators/tratiors for power sharing with the Brits in NI. And the Good Friday agreement (although overwhelming in it's vote) should be viewed as morally wrong by the minority because it deleted articles 2 and 3 of the constitution.

Oh and Martin McGuinness was the worst traitor, because he shook the Queen's hand.

Of course Croke Park should also be viewed as collaborators, they let Brits in to play foreign sports. People should boycott the place.

jem

Have to say that this was a mental idea by flanagan and whatever other bright sparks that came up with the idea.
The ordinary indivudal ric members that did a decent job without harming anyone shouldnt be vilified but the state shouldnt have to comemerate them either.
Should we have a national commemoration for all farmers who raised their cattle and therefore fed the people, or those that worked in meat factory's etc no we shouldnt that is for their own families.
However many members of the RIC werent ordinary decent people , they killed and maimed their fellow irish in the service of the british crown.
Having such a commemormation of the RIC covers both the good and the bad and the extreme violence and indeed buchery of the bad ones is to a point swept under the carpet. That was never going to work.
All these type of events should go far behond party politics but this one has become diehard blueshirt section of FG against the rest, with the rest largly not wearing their party colours.
One line being thrown out by those supporting this event is that it will effect the way that Unionists view us. I would expect that they dont realy care and certinally would never have even thought of it had the event not been arranged by the Govt.

BYTW I have never voted for SF and never will.

marieholmfan

Nift wrote: »

I don't know if there is any point continuing this. I was just told i'm expecting nirvana, when i clearly stated its going to be the polar opposite.

People are too entrenched in their ways to see your point.

I'll leave this one here, from the opposing view -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGoLr-3XcRM (2013 but do we really think its any better)

Neither side can put themselves into the others shoes. Nobody can see the nuance you speak of.

Lets just say FG are west brits, Flanagan a tan, Vardakar a closest Tory, the RIC are evil nazi scum, Fergal Keane a soup taking OBE clutching brit. Its probably easier. Tear down Georgian Dublin i say. Brian Boru courted vikings, burn his memory

The video you posted directly contradicts your claim that neither side can put themselves into the others shoes.

Brian Boru was a traitor and usurper who allowed the slave trade to continue from Dublin.

This is by contrast with the O'Neills who were and are the rightful high kings of Ireland.

Feisar

J Mysterio wrote: »

But that is outrageous. How anyone in their right mind could think that a period fitting for comedy is beyond me.

Genocide humour there at 3:50.

Nift

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Nift wrote: »

The discussion on a UI has begun, ages ago at executive level. See the work of the all party committee. It has also begun in Britain, see the work of universities there, in NI and here in the south.
Not sure what planet you are living on this last while, but with Brexit that discussion is only going to amplify.

Sorry again...but what possible conclusions could Leo, Charlie etc have garnered had this plan succeeded and the commemoration had gone ahead?

Have we just thrown away a chance to get FG fully onboard the UI express?

I'm fully aware whats happening. If you think FG don't want a United Ireland then you clearly don't understand politics. I know it doesn't fit the narrative around real republicans etc. I mean Fianna Fail are the true Republican party if we go down the truth path. Just cause they can see the dangers and costs around a border poll doesn't mean anything. Otherwise, i dunno don't you think, a great seat winner would be promising the moon and stars around it. Fine Gael would wipe the floor if they delivered a United Ireland, their legacy secure etc etc. Its sensible politics. I mean they can't win. Promise ****, oh you're lying, be honest, sensible oh you're west brits. I don't know, personally i'm sick of the nonsense around Irish politics. A complete misunderstanding of how it all works. Or disingenuous in the case of SF.

Just cause its amplifying means **** all in reality. I don't know if your north or south. If your North, fair enough you are on ground zero. If you are in the South, just like i, we have no real clue. there is no guarantee a border poll passes. The Rory McIllroy's of the North are ten a penny now or what planet have you been living on?

feargale

McMurphy wrote: »

The Indos front page has almost entirely been dedicated to attacking the black and tan wankfest the blueshirts had planned.

Yes there were Blueshirts in Fine Gael. Some were undiluted fascists and some were not. The latter were generally motivated by a desire to protect FG public meetings from attack by enemies of democracy. The Blueshirts belong to the past.
Now, if you want to call FG the Blueshirts you should be consistent and refer to "Republicans" as the Nazis or Hitler's fellow travellers. You want that substantiated?

FrancieBrady

CrankyHaus wrote: »

I haven't seen most of that so I don't know if it's true or not. I won't deny that there is a lurking undercurrent of vocal anti-English bile in Ireland, which I don't approve of.

However it's understandable that it exists in the context of centuries of British Rule. And it's not remotely representative of most Irish people, who have overwhemingly taken or supported pragmatic and nuanced approaches to issues like the Good Friday Referendum, our minority Anglo Irish community or recognition of the complex loyalties of Irish people under British Rule.

In fact the proposed RIC Commemoration and it's tin-eared whitewashing of an oppressive force is what fuelled any reinvigoration of this bile and those behind it that may have occurred. And conflation of anyone opposed to the Commemoration with those few bigots only further buttresses and emboldens them.

There is plenty of bile available for all on social media, witness what happens when a Shinner says something people don't like. I took somebody to task on this site this morning for posting an encouragement to people to bet on a certain radio presenter's death in the next while.
I mean, that kind of stuff is just something we have to live with and the perpetrators of it are rarely in any position to effect any material change in how we live and co-exist.
It does present a handy way to tar all with objections in the same way, what Charlie Flanagan tries to portray as 'sinister and immature'.

The delightful thing is that there has been much informed and intelligent comment on this, and a lot of people know more about this period than might otherwise have been the case.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Why stop there?
In that case you should be protesting against the current government in it's entirety non-stop because after all they are partitionists.


SF are collaborators/tratiors for power sharing with the Brits in NI. And the Good Friday agreement (although overwhelming in it's vote) should be viewed as morally wrong by the minority because it deleted articles 2 and 3 of the constitution.

Oh and Martin McGuinness was the worst traitor, because he shook the Queen's hand.

Of course Croke Park should also be viewed as collaborators, they let Brits in to play foreign sports. People should boycott the place.

Are you alright there?

Are you going to tell us 'who here' thinks they are more Irish?

FrancieBrady

Nift wrote: »

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I'm fully aware whats happening. If you think FG don't want a United Ireland then you clearly don't understand politics. I know it doesn't fit the narrative around real republicans etc. I mean Fianna Fail are the true Republican party if we go down the truth path. Just cause they can see the dangers and costs around a border poll doesn't mean anything. Otherwise, i dunno don't you think, a great seat winner would be promising the moon and stars around it. Fine Gael would wipe the floor if they delivered a United Ireland, their legacy secure etc etc. Its sensible politics. I mean they can't win. Promise ****, oh you're lying, be honest, sensible oh you're west brits. I don't know, personally i'm sick of the nonsense around Irish politics. A complete misunderstanding of how it all works. Or disingenuous in the case of SF.

Just cause its amplifying means **** all in reality. I don't know if your north or south. If your North, fair enough you are on ground zero. If you are in the South, just like i, we have no real clue. there is no guarantee a border poll passes. The Rory McIllroy's of the North are ten a penny now or what planet have you been living on?

Any chance you could answer the question and stop weaving all over the place?

Sorry again...but what possible conclusions could Leo, Charlie etc have garnered had this plan succeeded and the commemoration had gone ahead?

Nift

marieholmfan wrote: »

The video you posted directly contradicts your claim that neither side can put themselves into the others shoes.

Brian Boru was a traitor and usurper who allowed the slave trade to continue from Dublin.

This is by contrast with the O'Neills who were and are the rightful high kings of Ireland.

how do you figure? He actually even saids "i will never, never, never walk in a republican's shoes'. This is in response to Kelly saying he wants a United Ireland. The two are completely incompatible. And in relation to the the commemoration its pertinent. Neither side, Republican or Unionist can view the others history or culture with anything but suspicion and revisionism. A border poll while it may mean democracy winning out will the just lead to the troubles 2.0. Fine Gael who have thousands of policy people, gardai, army intelligence, diplomats understand this hence the positioning around it. Flanagan has a hard on with IRA hypocrisy like manyTD's so it seems like its a tan thing, like the lily. But its actually more to do with Sinn Fein as an all ireland party taking ownership of all things republican. Fianna Fail are the same. Labour too. Martin has spoken of how SF have taken ownership of the tri-color. There is loads of politics around this.

I'm done if this is the level of where we are at. If you respond to something but don't actually review it then i'm out.

Least you can accept Brian Boru's nuances.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Are you alright there?

Are you going to tell us 'who here' thinks they are more Irish?

You either follow your logic to full conclusion or not at all.
Many so called protesters against the RIC/DMP comm. on this thread are hypocrites, as are the politicians. But at least they have the excuse that they are looking for votes from the brainwashed.

marieholmfan

Nift wrote: »

how do you figure? He actually even saids "i will never, never, never walk in a republican shoes'

I'm done if this is the level of where we are at. If you respond to something but don't actually review it then i'm out.

Least you can accept Brian Boru's nuances.

Gerry Kelly puts himself into the young man in the audience's shoes. I am certainly prepared to agree that the Irishman who describes himself as British in the audience is not willing to have his mind opened; but that seems to cut directly across your both sides narrative.

Re Brian Boru - I don't see much nuance Maelseachnaill banned (chattel) slave trading (for money) and the Dal Cais taxed it. There's no moral equivalence.

marieholmfan

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

You either follow your logic to full conclusion or not at all.
Many so called protesters against the RIC/DMP comm. on this thread are hypocrites, as are the politicians. But at least they have the excuse that they are looking for votes from the brainwashed.

This is like when yesterday you insisted that one must either sing songs to celebrate both the tans and the IRA or neither; now you are insisting that I must follow the Belfast road to it's full conclusion (Belfast Docks?) or not drive it at all - in any event I am not to exit at Newry or Dundalk.

Your reasoning style is bizarre.

Either follow your idea to a reductio ad absurdum or don't follow it all?

Nift

marieholmfan wrote: »

Gerry Kelly puts himself into the young man in the audience's shoes. I am certainly prepared to agree that the Irishman who describes himself as British in the audience is not willing to have his mind opened; but that seems to cut directly across your both sides narrative.

Re Brian Boru - I don't see much nuance Maelseachnaill banned (chattel) slave trading (for money) and the Dal Cais taxed it. There's no moral equivalence.

Yes and the Unionist guy doesn't. I never said Kelly doesn't.

I'm not bashing Kelly here, its visual evidence of how complex a border poll and the future looks. You can be sure there will be thousands of people who freak out in the South and West Belfast if the tri-color is changed, the anthem, the shared celebrations etc etc. Hence why i'm saying i believe in my lifetime it won't happen. I want it to, but as certain as i am that there is no God, i know in my bones it won't.

Sinn Fein are very open around the new Ireland that is needed. I acknowledge that and respect that. It would be great if others get on board They even came up with the federal idea years ago.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

You either follow your logic to full conclusion or not at all.
Many so called protesters against the RIC/DMP comm. on this thread are hypocrites, as are the politicians. But at least they have the excuse that they are looking for votes from the brainwashed.

So we can conclude that NOBODY has said they are 'more Irish' than those Irish who served in the RIC/DMP.

Cheers for clearing that up.

Fann Linn

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

You either follow your logic to full conclusion or not at all.
Many so called protesters against the RIC/DMP comm. on this thread are hypocrites, as are the politicians. But at least they have the excuse that they are looking for votes from the brainwashed.

I think most on here protesting against this commemoration are doing so because these forces committed atrocities.

marieholmfan

Nift wrote: »

Yes and the Unionist guy doesn't. I never said Kelly doesn't.

I'm not bashing Kelly here, its visual evidence of how complex a border poll and the future looks.

Sinn Fein are very open around the new Ireland that is needed. I acknowledge that and respect that. It would be great if others get on board They even came up with the federal idea years ago.

I agree with you that the British identified side are unable to see 'our side'

CrankyHaus

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There is plenty of bile available for all on social media, witness what happens when a Shinner says something people don't like. I took somebody to task on this site this morning for posting an encouragement to people to bet on a certain radio presenter's death in the next while.
I mean, that kind of stuff is just something we have to live with and the perpetrators of it are rarely in any position to effect any material change in how we live and co-exist.
It does present a handy way to tar all with objections in the same way, what Charlie Flanagan tries to portray as 'sinister and immature'.

The delightful thing is that there has been much informed and intelligent comment on this, and a lot of people know more about this period than might otherwise have been the case.

I generally agree, in my experience the online communities of Ireland excelled on this occasion in protecting historical truth and accuracy in the face of an official attempt to replace it with a pack of lies.

Charlie was on Pat Kenny this morning with the sympathy bucket out for the "nastiness" and "vitriol" he got in the last 48 hours, which is a bit of a distraction from the substantive issue here.

Nift

marieholmfan wrote: »

I agree with you that the British identified side are unable to see 'our side'

I admit i said either side. I should have said most of either side.

You see your position, which is yours to have, is the danger we face. Sending drones?

I mean i do know the army had a plan, maybe still do, post UI about strategy and originally i believe it involved the Rangers, but thats 1970 thinking.

It's dangerous.

Our side?

So you admit that your vision of a UI is a 32 county Republic with all the same things but just a few extra protestants. Would you accommodate them at all?

And again to keep it on point its relevance is mirrored in this whole debacle. How would the newly republican north treat and remember its old police forces? I mean they were suppressing a United Ireland in the same way no?

RandomName2

CrankyHaus wrote: »

They weren't Irish citizens as Ireland did not exist as a state to be a citizen of.
They were willing British subjects who took an oath of loyalty to the crown.

They were not neighbourhood Gardai enforcing the law by consent and Peelian Principals.
They were a force of Gendarmerie armed with rifles enforcing the rule of the crown through force and terror.

They performed evictions at gunpoint of starving tenants at the behest of absentee landlords.
They baton charged the public, mainly mass goers, during the 1913 lockout and beat 2 to death while injuring 400 - 600.
They perpetrated the Bloody Sunday Massacre.
They accepted serving alongside the RIC Auxiliary Division, which challenged the Black and Tans for human rights abuses, during the war of Independence.


The nonsense you spouted has zero basis in fact and is a perfect example of the kind of ahistorical masochism I mentioned above.

You know that an anti-treaty person would have said almost the exact same thing about the police force of the Irish Free State?

I would also imagine that a Real IRA person today would say much the same of the Gardaí.

Nationalism is fine. Blinkered jingoistic nationalism is a dangerous beast.

The Satanist wrote: »

They were collaborators and traitors. I celebrate only their death.

Quite so.

FrancieBrady

CrankyHaus wrote: »

I generally agree, in my experience the online communities of Ireland excelled on this occasion in protecting historical truth and accuracy in the face of an official attempt to replace it with a pack of lies.

Charlie was on Pat Kenny this morning with the sympathy bucket out for the "nastiness" and "vitriol" he got in the last 48 hours, which is a bit of a distraction from the substantive issue here.

It's a familiar crutch, and you see some depending on it here. There was some fantastic intelligent and reasoned comment from a wide variety of sources on this yesterday.
And IMO that is why Charlie headed for the hills very very quickly indeed despite his tears. From what I can see FG have been getting severe and nasty abuse online for a long time now. They have been well able to ignore it before, as it should be ignored.

Charlie is just not willing to admit he made a terrible miscalculation and mistake.

Nift

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Nift wrote: »

Any chance you could answer the question and stop weaving all over the place?

Ah here i have answered it. It seems like its weaving maybe cause you are entrenched in your thinking.

I have clearly stated i want a United Ireland, i wasn't pro commemoration, but the backlash against it in some quarters was ridiculous. As was the ignoring of the recommendation by Flanagan. Personally i detest Irish exceptionalism and revisionism. I said the RIC commited terrible acts in the famine, land wars etc.

Calling Varadkar a tan, the British were nazis et etc. And its clearly an eye opener around the difficulties if a border poll came about, never mind if it somehow passed. A border poll would throw up all this times 1000 and then afterwards, a United Ireland times a million. It will end in the troubles 2.0 which is why FG are delaying it and trying to pander (obsiously mistakenly) to some higher moral plain. Otherwise with a coming election, the smart move would be to promise a border poll or at least an assembly by summer.

I mean i'm not pro FG or anything, but again i'd bet they will return to power in some capacity. Maybe lose a good few seats and Coveney gets in and they share with the greens or labor or something. Its because a good majority (the people as you put it) aren't so ill informed about politics.

I'm not sure how much clearer i can be.