RIC and DMP to be commemorated this month

CrankyHaus

I wouldn't be surprised to see this commemoration re-arranged, after a suitable period of PR messaging to avoid any upsets the second time round.
You can see both on this thread and in the media that this messaging has already begun.


The better alternative is that a more nuanced remembrance in line with the EAG's recommendation is held. But I wouldn't bank on it. I get the impression Charlie's made some fairly binding commitments to the boys in blue who want their great grandfathers to be reinstated as Irish Heroes.

FrancieBrady

Nift wrote: »

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Ah here i have answered it. It seems like its weaving cause you are entrenched in your thinking.

Can you point me to where?

'Confident' in my thinking, because it is backed by historical fact, is not to be confused with 'entrenched'. If you can change the fact that the RIC/DMP where organisations of our oppressors and who had a vested interest in brutally suppressing the emergence of our independent state then I will happily change my mind. While you are at it, also change the fact that when the RIC/DMP were not up to the job, the Black and Tans were attached to aid them and vice versa. Then alter the facts of the carnage and brutality they engaged in.

BTW Had Charlie the same confidence he wouldn't have wilted so quickly.

Nift

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Nift wrote: »

Can you point me to where?

'Confident' in my thinking, because it is backed by historical fact, is not to be confused with 'entrenched'. If you can change the fact that the RIC/DMP where organisations of our oppressors and who had a vested interest in brutally suppressing the emergence of our independent state then I will happily change my mind. While you are at it, also change the fact that when the RIC/DMP were not up to the job, the Black and Tans were attached to aid them and vice versa. Then alter the facts of the carnage and brutality they engaged in.

BTW Had Charlie the same confidence he wouldn't have wilted so quickly.

ok this one ."but what possible conclusions could Leo, Charlie etc have garnered had this plan succeeded and the commemoration had gone ahead?"

None maybe its a positive, I suppose now they know how difficult this UI question will be. And the possible rewards.

Perhaps the backlash will actually galvanise them to climb out of the ditch and plant the tri color in no mans land and declare a border poll if they win the election. It would win a few seats and take the wind from SF sails. But again i'd be near certain they won't which is either an honest, responsible approach or it could be the economic thing (which is no real excuse)

I think Varadkars already a pr disaster and weak. Its shown them mainly that they need each other. Flanagan is a useless minister of justice in my book, i'm no fan of his at all. Coveney is licking his lips.

LostinBlanch

CrankyHaus wrote: »

I wouldn't be surprised to see this commemoration re-arranged, after a suitable period of PR messaging to avoid any upsets the second time round.
You can see both on this thread and in the media that this messaging has already begun.


The better alternative is that a more nuanced remembrance in line with the EAG's recommendation is held. But I wouldn't bank on it. I get the impression Charlie's made some fairly binding commitments to the boys in blue who want their great grandfathers to be reinstated as Irish Heroes.

And like I said, if that's the case then he can expect to have that brought up again when the election is underway.

careless sherpa

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

You are going on about how the British discouraged the Irish language etc.

If Ireland is such a proud nation/a real nation why does it not converse in it's own language, rather than piecemeal stuff.
The British are not the fault for that - Irish people are.

The irony that we are conversing in English on a thread where many view themselves as republicans and nationalists, seem lost on many including you.

Yet on the other hand people seem to try and create the narrative that all the British were the oppressors and evil which is silly. With no nuance whatsoever and refuse to even remember the RIC/DMP. And are doing so in the language of thier former 'colonial masters' they 'hate' still!.
It's comical stuff - a colony mindset.

Oh Mary why don't you have some sense

LostinBlanch

CrankyHaus wrote: »

Charlie was on Pat Kenny this morning with the sympathy bucket out for the "nastiness" and "vitriol" he got in the last 48 hours, which is a bit of a distraction from the substantive issue here.

Standard MO really. He can't absolve himself of the blame here. It's like someone dousing wood in petrol and then throwing a lit match onto it and blaming the wood for singeing him when it went up in flames.

Dyr

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Well that is the shorten form I prefer to go by the CP programme.
None of the fancy stuff for me!

But it's not shorter?

FrancieBrady

Nift wrote: »

FrancieBrady wrote: »

ok this one ."but what possible conclusions could Leo, Charlie etc have garnered had this plan succeeded and the commemoration had gone ahead?"

I suppose now they know how difficult this UI question will be. And the possible rewards.

Perhaps the backlash will actually galvanise them to climb out of the ditch and plant the tri color in no mans land and declare a border poll if they win the election.

As I suspected. Your depiction that this was some sort of cunning counter plan is spurious to say the least!

The actual factual evidence suggests it was a monumental miscalculation which, as is par for the course for this government, they haven't even sealed off properly, when the opportunity was there and will fester away up to and during an election. FG **** it up again alá so many other **** ups.

FrancieBrady

Bambi wrote: »

But it's not shorter?

:D:D:D

CrankyHaus

LostinBlanch wrote: »

And like I said, if that's the case then he can expect to have that brought up again when the election is underway.

Let's hope. A cynic may say that FG don't get their votes from the people who care most about this. In fact I suspect that's exactly what Leo's Spin Gurus told him just before he waltzed into this mess.

The actual impact of this may be an enlightening litmus test of how prevalent traditional views on the WOI actually are across Irish Society. I can't say I was confident of such a swift popular repudiation of this commemoration.

Nift

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Nift wrote: »

As I suspected. Your depiction that this was some sort of cunning counter plan is spurious to say the least!

The actual factual evidence suggests it was a monumental miscalculation which, as is par for the course for this government, they haven't even sealed off properly, when the opportunity was there and will fester away up to and during an election. FG **** it up again alá so many other **** ups.

Did i really say it was I mean i take it you vote Sf? fair enough like. I'm not a FG supporter, i'm neutral i have no idea who i'd vote for as i feel they are all full of ****. But hey thats politics in my book. Part of me might vote SF just to see them struggle to keep their ideals in the hotseat. Its easy hurling from the ditches. I mean they have some smart people. Its the guys in the shadows there i don't trust.

i'm just saying thats how they could spin it. Its politics. They check what way the wind is blowing when they wake up. It was a **** up and miscalculated, again i'm not denying that at all. Once we got Ferriter's response yesterday (after we started debating this) it was much clearer that they went against it. I'll admit that. We had a poster trying to argue that it was the recommendation, and it wasn't.

They are in serious trouble. One more mis-step. the huge issue is who the opposition is. I don't think this is enough. If they had gone ahead yeah.

One more issue in the next few months and at least Leo is done i think.

Nift

CrankyHaus wrote: »

Let's hope. A cynic may say that FG don't get their votes from the people who care most about this. In fact I suspect that's exactly what Leo's Spin Gurus told him just before he waltzed into this mess.

The actual impact of this may be an enlightening litmus test of how prevalent traditional views on the WOI actually are across Irish Society. I can't say I was confident of such a swift popular repudiation of this commemoration.

Well from Fine gael voters that i know many would think its stupid, but none of them would equate it with nazi's. they mainly only care about jobs, tax, living costs, etc. A few of them had people involved in 1916 and NI, and still they recognize the nuances that have been raised. Not everyone sees the World in Black and white, which is why you'll see FF or FG get in power. As unpalatable as that is to many people.

Its not enough. If FF brought it up, FG will respond with Martin's old school approach (ireland am) if sf bring it up, they will just go down the dark road. It won't be a live issue. If they had ignored it and gone ahead or if they redo it then yeah.

LostinBlanch

Nift wrote: »

ok this one ."but what possible conclusions could Leo, Charlie etc have garnered had this plan succeeded and the commemoration had gone ahead?"

None maybe its a positive, I suppose now they know how difficult this UI question will be. And the possible rewards.

Perhaps the backlash will actually galvanise them to climb out of the ditch and plant the tri color in no mans land and declare a border poll if they win the election. It would win a few seats and take the wind from SF sails. But again i'd be near certain they won't which is either an honest, responsible approach or it could be the economic thing (which is no real excuse)

I think Varadkars already a pr disaster and weak. Its shown them mainly that they need each other. Flanagan is a useless minister of justice in my book, i'm no fan of his at all. Coveney is licking his lips.

I agree with both of these. I'm not sure Coveney is immune to this, don't forget he only scraped into last seat behind Sinn Fein in the 2016 election. Fianna Fail got the first two seats in that constituency.

Regarding any United Ireland negotiations would anybody be happy with Varadkar and Flanagan negotiating on our behalf? I wouldn't, and I suspect a lot of people might agree with me.

Nift

LostinBlanch wrote: »

Nift wrote: »

I agree with both of these. I'm not sure Coveney is immune to this, don't forget he only scraped into last seat behind Sinn Fein in the 2016 election. Fianna Fail got the first two seats in that constituency.

Regarding any United Ireland negotiations would anybody be happy with Varadkar and Flanagan negotiating on our behalf? I wouldn't, and I suspect a lot of people might agree with me.

In a FG sense its either Leo or Simon. Pascal's a smart foot soldier. There's really nobody else.

Well thats SF's card trick, if they ever get in power here. they are the only all Ireland power then. better the devil you know perhaps from a Unionist perspective...

maybe thats how it all works out in the end. The party who suggests we need to accept change (new flag, anthem etc), shook the queens hand and envelops the whole Island wins the all island prize.

Whoever does it seals their place in history and becomes the Irish version of the ANC. Even a border poll act gets them far.

Bishop of hope

Nift wrote: »

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Did i really say it was I mean i take it you vote Sf? fair enough like. I'm not a FG supporter, i'm neutral i have no idea who i'd vote for as i feel they are all full of ****. But hey thats politics in my book. Part of me might vote SF just to see them struggle to keep their ideals in the hotseat. Its easy hurling from the ditches. I mean they have some smart people. Its the guys in the shadows there i don't trust.

i'm just saying thats how they could spin it. Its politics. They check what way the wind is blowing when they wake up. It was a **** up and miscalculated, again i'm not denying that at all. Once we got Ferriter's response yesterday (after we started debating this) it was much clearer that they went against it. I'll admit that. We had a poster trying to argue that it was the recommendation, and it wasn't.

They are in serious trouble. One more mis-step. the huge issue is who the opposition is. I don't think this is enough. If they had gone ahead yeah.

One more issue in the next few months and at least Leo is done i think.

I wouldn't be too sure on the Leo front, it looks like this is, or at least being made to look like a Flannigan thing. I wonder are there many in FG would mind seeing the back of him?
They pulled the plug and this won't be revisited or happen before an election now so FG will be hoping it dies down before that.
I don't think Francie votes for SF, he just defends their every move .

FrancieBrady

Bishop of hope wrote: »

Nift wrote: »

I wouldn't be too sure on the Leo front, it looks like this is, or at least being made to look like a Flannigan thing. I wonder are there many in FG would mind seeing the back of him?
They pulled the plug and this won't be revisited or happen before an election now so FG will be hoping it dies down before that.
I don't think Francie votes for SF, he just defends their every move .

Francie doesn't 'defend their every move'. If he does, find me a quote from Francie defending SF economic policy?

LostinBlanch

Nift wrote: »

In a FG sense its either Leo or Simon. Pascal's a smart foot soldier. There's really nobody else.

Well he has to get elected first, that's why I said he's not immune to this, especially with SF beating him in the last election.

I'm not an SF voter, just an interested observer, which is why I thought that this thing has been such an avoidable own goal.

FrancieBrady

LostinBlanch wrote: »

Regarding any United Ireland negotiations would anybody be happy with Varadkar and Flanagan negotiating on our behalf? I wouldn't, and I suspect a lot of people might agree with me.

What this has shown them, and it is timely, they get a boost when they stand up for Irish people north and south (Leo's ratings soared for a while) and they get an embarrassing 24 hour ****show necessitating a complete volte face, if they try to appease Unionism by sanitising our history.

Dyr

Nift wrote: »

LostinBlanch wrote: »

In a FG sense its either Leo or Simon. Pascal's a smart foot soldier. There's really nobody else.

Bertie was a foot soldier, until he suited him not to be

Nift

And if they don't appease Unionism at all in any sense, that's the issue. And where all this started at least for me. Many posters can recognise the need for some appeasement, if not a whitewashing of history.

Its all very interesting, and a moment for the history books probably given how close at least a border poll is (which would fail imo currently if put forth to NI first).

also in the context of the forthcoming centenary of the war of independence, which must be the lowest valued WOI of any nation, due to the civil war and being overshadowed by 1916 etc.

LostinBlanch

Bishop of hope wrote: »

I wouldn't be too sure on the Leo front, it looks like this is, or at least being made to look like a Flannigan thing. I wonder are there many in FG would mind seeing the back of him?

I'd say a lot of back benchers are at risk because of his ineptitude.

Bishop of hope wrote: »

They pulled the plug and this won't be revisited or happen before an election now so FG will be hoping it dies down before that.

But just deferring it leaves it in the air to be used as a political football come the election. It's meat and drink to SF and anyone else who wants to make hay with it.

hatrickpatrick

Nathaniel Greasy Warrior wrote: »

I wonder how many people raging about this idea are unknowingly descended from the same people.

The civil war wasn't baddies versus goodies. The Irish state hasn't demonstrated itself to be morally superior than the UK. Horrific levels of corruption and abuse have been present throughout its history.

The root of the war was that northern Unionists promised to march on Dublin Castle if Home Rule was granted. So the British caved and Pearse et al took the opportunity to drum up support for their alternative movement. The reason the northern unionists gave for opposed home rule was they were concerned about an undue level of influence by the RC Church. This was pretty accurate in hindsight.

The idea of a separate state altogether was not a popular one before that. Plenty of Irish people disagreed with the notion even when it gained momentum. Of course that's not how they write about it now.

The root of the whole mess though was the Act of Union which dissolved our home rule parliament in 1800, which was implemented specifically as a punitive measure following the 1798 rebellion - and that rebellion was primarily fuelled by anger at the routine discrimination against Catholics by the ruling Protestant class. So regardless of how the independence movement morphed from demanding home rule to a separate Republic, the actual root cause of the whole mess was, again, a ruling class desperately clinging to their unequivocally evil ideology that it's morally acceptable to oppress another class of people just because you can. In that sense, yes, those fighting for independence were indeed morally superior to those fighting against it. I'd be the first here to condemn not only the Catholic Church but the Irish state and how it behaved post-independence in conjunction with the Church, but none of that changes the fact that the root of the whole issue was, indeed, a black and white "baddies vs goodies" issue - those of one class who had power over others and didn't want to give it up, versus those who were sick of having another class exercise power over them.

Desiring power over people who openly and clearly are not happy with you having power over them makes you a scumbag, it's as simple as that. Anyone who actually wants their people to control other people against their wishes is ultimately opposing human nature which desires overwhelmingly to be free. If that's the cause you're fighting for, you are the "baddies" - and literally no other factor can change that in any way whatsoever. Fighting to maintain your class's power over others who don't want you to have power over them is morally wrong, end of story.

FrancieBrady

Nift wrote: »

And if they don't appease Unionism at all in any sense, that's the issue. And where all this started at least for me. Many posters can recognise the need for some appeasement, if not a whitewashing of history. Its very interesting, and a moment for the history books probably given how close at least a border poll is (which would fail imo currently if put forth to NI first).

The unionists need to listen to the words of their monarch when she very carefully chose her words while here. Charlie could do with listening to them too.

'There were things that were done that we wish were not done'.

What the RIC/DMP and the Aux and Black and Tans did are included in that. The facts are the facts and Unionists just have to live with that, as we here have to live with what our side did.

Living with the fact that a state cannot 'commenorate' it's oppressors but can acknowledge who and what they were in other ways, is the only way forward here. Allowing families and those who wish to commemorate them is the only compromise/appeasement necessary. That actually has been happening for a long time. It should also be expected of Unionists towards those on the other side.

LostinBlanch

Nift wrote: »

And if they don't appease Unionism at all in any sense, that's the issue. And where all this started at least for me. Many posters can recognise the need for some appeasement, if not a whitewashing of history.

Here's where I diagree with you Nift, no to any whitewashing or appeasement. Agreement of course, but appeasement no. Words are important. If someone like Bertie was in charge of our negotiating team like for the Good Friday Agreement then I'd be more hopeful of a constructive outcome.* Some kind of constructive ambiguity will be needed. I think that Varadkar and Flanagan would definitely look to appease the lunatic fringe of Unionism and throw out the (Irish) baby with the bathwater, leaving nobody happy.

*Please note, I'm not a Bertie fan and I thought that he should have at least faced trial for corruption, but I can recognise that he played a blinder with the GFA and negotiations like these play to his strengths. One reason why the UN appointed him to oversee the independence referendum in Bougainville.

KrustyUCC

Charlie Flanagan 'shocked by nastiness and vitriol' he received over RIC commemoration

The chair of the Expert Advisory Group also described the planning as ‘a bit of a mess’.

Flanagan also said that he was shocked by some of the responses he received as result of the controversy.

“Can I just say that I was struck over the last 48 hours at the nastiness, at the vitriol at the emails that I got, the phone calls that I got, you know this is this is far from a programme of reconciliation. I was quite shocked,” he said.

https://www.thejournal.ie/ric-commemoration-4957484-Jan2020/

Poor old Charlie

Calhoun

KrustyUCC wrote: »

Charlie Flanagan 'shocked by nastiness and vitriol' he received over RIC commemoration

The chair of the Expert Advisory Group also described the planning as ‘a bit of a mess’.

Flanagan also said that he was shocked by some of the responses he received as result of the controversy.

“Can I just say that I was struck over the last 48 hours at the nastiness, at the vitriol at the emails that I got, the phone calls that I got, you know this is this is far from a programme of reconciliation. I was quite shocked,” he said.

https://www.thejournal.ie/ric-commemoration-4957484-Jan2020/

Poor old Charlie

This is the oh crap we ****ed up response, consults with the media team and they are like go for the sympathy angle.

Trying to turn himself into the victim here aint going to work. Just like using language to shame people into being against it didnt work.

I am glad they are keeping it going though as it keeps it in the news cycle that bit longer.

KrustyUCC

I'm not sure Leo and Charlie actually think they ****ed up

Just the ordinary people 'misunderstood'

They have been badly out of step on this one but won't acknowledge it

Sure Flanagan still wants the deferred commemoration to go ahead later in the year

FrancieBrady

Calhoun wrote: »

This is the oh crap we ****ed up response, consults with the media team and they are like go for the sympathy angle.

Trying to turn himself into the victim here aint going to work. Just like using language to shame people into being against it didnt work.

I am glad they are keeping it going though as it keeps it in the news cycle that bit longer.

Fine Gael have been getting vitriol and abuse on Twitter and FB for a couple of years now, of the most extreme kind depending on the issue/**** up.

But suddenly it is shocking? Charlie is backing up like crazy to get himself out of his self dug hole but still hasn't figured out how to let go of the shovel.

marieholmfan

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Fine Gael have been getting vitriol and abuse on Twitter and FB for a couple of years now, of the most extreme kind depending on the issue/**** up.

But suddenly it is shocking? Charlie is backing up like crazy to get himself out of his self dug hole but still hasn't figured out how to let go of the shovel.

It didn't work for the swinger and it won't work for Flanagan .


People aren't sorry for them.

Zebra3

If Flanagan is shocked by what has been said on social media and the criticism directed at him in this democracy, wait until he hears about what his heroes in the RIC got up to.