RIC and DMP to be commemorated this month

weldoninhio

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Why would it require a change to the constitution to accept the unity we constitutionally aspire to?

Exactly, the constitution is based on a 32 county Ireland

FrancieBrady

Sir Oxman wrote: »

These facts appear to be completely ignored by the partitionistas, FGers and ancestors of the RICers on this thread.
This was Flanagan backed by Varadkar shoehorning a tiny lobby groups dreams of rehabilitation for their ancestors.
Totally selfmade fck up by a disastrous party in govt ignoring and bypassing the crossparty consensus on the decade.


Ya couldn't make it up but it is FG after all so I suppose it was inevitable.

Flanagan now being knifed in the back. Regina was the first dagger bearer pushed out last night on the Tonight Show to do it. Now they are all piling in.

It will be interesting to see how Coveney reacts here when the talks finish in Belfast. He must be pure livid considering the bounce he delivered for FG with Brexit.

Sir Oxman

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Flanagan now being knifed in the back. Regina was the first dagger bearer pushed out last night on the Tonight Show to do it. Now they are all piling in.

It will be interesting to see how Coveney reacts here when the talks finish in Belfast. He must be pure livid considering the bounce he delivered for FG with Brexit.

Interesting fact...
Regina was the first one in with the blade on Maria as well!

Sir Oxman

Impact on election date.

By the weekend we will know when the election will take place.
Before this sh1tshow, LV was strong arming FF wanting them to commit to vote positively instead of abstaining, with the govt until the election.
FF said no way.
LV was threatening a Feb election on the basis of that.
I wonder who has the strong arm now?

I really hope LV fcks up again and we get the election in a months time.

THE_SHEEP

Firstly , as regards a United Ireland . We cannot afford a United Ireland . Once guys and gals on both sides of the border see how hard they'll be hit in their pockets ( and their current standards of living will suffer ) , that will put an end to it .

Secondly , I have no issue with a " blanket " remembrance for all sides involved in the war if Independence / civil war .

But to single out a single group , in my opinion is pure stupidity from the likes of Leo and co .

Imagine remembering the fallen of WW2 , but given special mention / attention to the Nazi SS !!

seamus

THE_SHEEP wrote: »

Secondly , I have no issue with a " blanket " remembrance for all sides involved in the war if Independence / civil war .

But to single out a single group , in my opinion is pure stupidity from the likes of Leo and co .

Imagine remembering the fallen of WW2 , but given special mention / attention to the Nazi SS !!

I've stayed away from this discussion in general because as soon as the narrative became about the RIC, I knew there was no way back.

The most appropriate thing is indeed a commemoration for all people killed in the fight for independence, whether they were for or against it, pro-treaty or anti-treaty, RIC or IRA.

This is how the dead of WW2 are remembered in Europe.

A specific ceremony for one group seems ill-advised, especially when it should be expected that lots of peoples' backs would get up.

But sure lookit, it's been a good distraction from the real problems in this country in the lead up to announcing a GE. Get people worked up about an inconsequential matter and they might forget the housing crisis and the healthcare crisis.

Dr. Bre

It’s like the Americans commemorate Isis

facehugger99

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Who fears a vote in the south?

And after the events of this week can you not work out for yourself what is going to happen when we can put the question of partition to the people?

Imagine the backlash (and I am sure a few FG ministers are licking their wounds) against any party campaigning for a NO vote?

It isn't going to happen.

Imagine the people voting in a referendum against the prevailing political parties - nope, there's certainly no examples of that ever happening

We're not all sheep taking our lead from our political betters - people will make their own minds up based on how hard their pockets will be hit.

FrancieBrady

THE_SHEEP wrote: »

Firstly , as regards a United Ireland . We cannot afford a United Ireland . Once guys and gals on both sides of the border see how hard they'll be hit in their pockets ( and their current standards of living will suffer ) , that will put an end to it .

Brexit will very soon, because of the economic impact on both sides of the border, ask the question...can we afford NOT to unite?

And again, do the events of the last week not show you that when it comes to the national question there are more factors than economics involved? There is a huge emotional investment too.
Flanagan has managed, unintenionally, to educate a couple of generations on the exact details of what the RIC/DMP/Auxs/Black and Tans did. I am sure his backers - HARP - are delighted with him and Leo and Josepha.

Nift

McMurphy wrote: »

Source?

its well documented, the tide turned quickly with the executions.

Con Colberts account - The rebels were marched to Richmond Barracks. “When we were almost at the Coombe maternity hospital two drunken men insisted in falling in with us. They were ejected from our ranks several times on the route but eventually must have got into the ranks in my rear, for about two months later I saw those two men taking their exercise in Knutsford Prison.”

On their march they were subjected to abuse from the public. “They were ‘Shoot the Sinn Féin ****s.’ My name was called out by some boys and girls I had gone to school with . . . The British troops saved us from manhandling.

“This was the first time I ever appreciated the British troops, as they undoubtedly saved us from being manhandled that evening, and I was very glad as I walked in the gate of Richmond Barracks.”

FrancieBrady

seamus wrote: »

But sure lookit, it's been a good distraction from the real problems in this country in the lead up to announcing a GE. Get people worked up about an inconsequential matter and they might forget the housing crisis and the healthcare crisis.

The 'clever ploy' theory again?

Are you not watching the bloodletting seamus and the rats jumping ship?

A 'clever ploy' to distract that rips your party apart right before an inevitable election? Yeh right!

seamus

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The 'clever ploy' theory again?

Are you not watching the bloodletting seamus and the rats jumping ship?

A 'clever ploy' to distract that rips your party apart right before an inevitable election? Yeh right!

I think you're overplaying the significance of this Francie. Outside of the anger pot here and on Twitter, this isn't exactly something that's gotten people on the streets. But it has got the media talking about something other than trollies.

At the moment, anything that isn't healthcare or housing is a welcome respite for FG.

intellectual dosser

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Why would it require a change to the constitution to accept the unity we constitutionally aspire to?

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Can you point out in the GFA where a poll is required in the South?

I'm by no means an expert on our constitution but reading the amendment that followed the Good Friday Agreement (article 3)...

...recognising that a united Ireland shall be brought about only by peaceful means with the consent of a majority of the people, democratically expressed, in both jurisdictions in the island.

I thought it was fairly well known that as part of the Good Friday Agreement we gave up our constitutional claim to Northern Ireland, and instead took an aspiration to Irish unity, with the definition of unity left ambiguous.

Nift

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The 'clever ploy' theory again?

Are you not watching the bloodletting seamus and the rats jumping ship?

A 'clever ploy' to distract that rips your party apart right before an inevitable election? Yeh right!

why do you keep saying clever ploy? i read it as an observance that politics throws this stuff up all the time, its part of the game. What ploy? Its full of complex causation and happy accidents/domino effects.

I don't think anybody is saying its some sort of ploy. Its just blind luck sometimes, served by useful idiots.

Flanagan could easily be thrown under the bus, FG do a volte face and now base their whole GE schtick around a UI. Who knows? Fine Gael as badly as they are doing, aren't as in trouble as boards/reddit/journal comments would have you believe. We can see that in the polls. there isn't a hope SF get in. The people who mostly vote don't want to be voting in 60 per cent tax takes etc. The economy, despite all the ****e, is one of the strongest in the EU.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/celebrating-the-twelfth-across-ireland-should-be-on-the-table-in-border-poll-declares-mcdonald-38846433.html - celebrate the 12th

I mean i was saying this before and fair play to SF, but i bet there is folk among "the people" who are spitting out their coffee reading this...."over my dead body"

And a United Ireland can't be formed using our constitution. Its thinking like this which will mean a UI never gets past the border poll stage, and if it somehow did and we imposed our constitution, it would lead to outright blood letting.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/a-united-ireland-would-be-a-very-different-state-a-list-of-things-that-would-have-to-be-resolved-1.3979439?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fireland%2Firish-news%2Fa-united-ireland-would-be-a-very-different-state-a-list-of-things-that-would-have-to-be-resolved-1.3979439 - new constitution needed

Edgware

Firstly 50% +1 in favour of unity will not work. We need a very high vote across the traditions to make unity work. We also need the economic argument to be won so people will know that their situation wont worsen. No Party has made any effort to show how a United Ireland would be financed. And anyone who thinks Boris will pay for it is not reading the developng situation in the U.K. The Tories priority will be to get out of Europe, get a trade deal and continue to break down the Red Wall. If they get a trade deal thst works they needn't worry about Scotland going anywhere fast.

FrancieBrady

intellectual dosser wrote: »

I'm by no means an expert on our constitution but reading the amendment that followed the Good Friday Agreement (article 3)...



I thought it was fairly well known that as part of the Good Friday Agreement we gave up our constitutional claim to Northern Ireland, and instead took an aspiration to Irish unity, with the definition of unity left ambiguous.

Yes, you may be right, but there is no specific requirement for a poll in the South as there for the North.

It is vague and it could be argued that by having a constitutional aspiration to unity, democratic permission has already been given.

Anyway, as I said before, I am in favour of a southern referendum to silence partitionists here. I think that is just a healthy way to do it. Let those who wish to continue partition make their argument openly and transparently and take a democratic decision on it.

intellectual dosser

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yes, you may be right, but there is no specific requirement for a poll in the South as there for the North.

It is vague and it could be argued that by having a constitutional aspiration to unity, democratic permission has already been given.

Anyway, as I said before, I am in favour of a southern referendum to silence partitionists here. I think that is just a healthy way to do it. Let those who wish to continue partition make their argument openly and transparently and take a democratic decision on it.

The vagueness is in what unity means, not in whether or not a referendum is required.

seamus

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It is vague and it could be argued that by having a constitutional aspiration to unity, democratic permission has already been given.

No, it couldn't. The consitution explictly requires a democratic expression of consent from both jurisdictions.

is_that_so

Edgware wrote: »

Firstly 50% +1 in favour of unity will not work. We need a very high vote across the traditions to make unity work. We also need the economic argument to be won so people will know that their situation wont worsen. No Party has made any effort to show how a United Ireland would be financed. And anyone who thinks Boris will pay for it is not reading the developng situation in the U.K. The Tories priority will be to get out of Europe, get a trade deal and continue to break down the Red Wall. If they get a trade deal thst works they needn't worry about Scotland going anywhere fast.

Yes, it will be a case of theory versus practical realities. Additionally, the Brexit imbroglio requires that everything we would be voting for, both economically and culturally, is absolutely clear from the outset.

intellectual dosser

Edgware wrote: »

Firstly 50% +1 in favour of unity will not work. We need a very high vote across the traditions to make unity work. We also need the economic argument to be won so people will know that their situation wont worsen. No Party has made any effort to show how a United Ireland would be financed. And anyone who thinks Boris will pay for it is not reading the developng situation in the U.K. The Tories priority will be to get out of Europe, get a trade deal and continue to break down the Red Wall. If they get a trade deal thst works they needn't worry about Scotland going anywhere fast.

And its here that as responsible for it that he is I have to agree with Leo Varadkar that this shambles has pushed a United Ireland further away, it has given unionists a big stick just as they were feeling their backs against the wall.

FrancieBrady

Nift wrote: »

why do you keep saying clever ploy? i read it as an observance that politics throws this stuff up all the time, its part of the game. What ploy? Its full of complex causation and happy accidents/domino effects.

because the bould seamus came on to thread last night positing the theory that it was all a clever ploy/trolling by Leo.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=112202047&postcount=1473

Nift

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/a-united-ireland-would-be-a-very-different-state-a-list-of-things-that-would-have-to-be-resolved-1.3979439?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fireland%2Firish-news%2Fa-united-ireland-would-be-a-very-different-state-a-list-of-things-that-would-have-to-be-resolved-1.3979439

People need to consider all this very very carefully -

We need to accept the money involved, and the economic hit we will face. Which perhaps the EU would help with. We need to persuade millions of Republicans to abandon their identities. We need to persuade millions of Unionists to abandon their identities. Both in their eyes hard won. And thats before you even get to the new generation of middle class indifferent catholics/nationalists who think like FG supporters here. Its the economy stupid. Jobs. Tax. Comfort. They'd likely vote an independent NI before they would a UI. I mean lets be honest people can't stand or stand for Ireland's call. They couldn't wrap their tiny minds around why Rory Best, a unionist couldn't sing amhran na bhfiann. They can't (even Drico couldn't) understand how a unionist considers themselves Irish and British. There is so much to get past before a border poll becomes a reality.

New constitution, new flag, new anthem, language discussion, new capitals perhaps, federalism, shared celebrations of the covenant, the rising, the battle of the boyne,. I mean and thats before you get past the absolute hatred that each side have for each other in some quarters up North.


Again, i'll repeat its not some sinister evil FG plot to try and show how West Brit they. Its responsible government, shock ****ing horror.

They can't win really. I mean if they announced a border poll in the morning, perhaps their intelligent, educated middle of the road base would abandon them.

Despite what Francie claims, there isn't really too many "partionists" (how can they be, when they had/have no say in partition) its more practicality. People can take the emotion out of it and think rationally.

FrancieBrady

intellectual dosser wrote: »

And its here that as responsible for it that he is I have to agree with Leo Varadkar that this shambles has pushed a United Ireland further away, it has given unionists a big stick just as they were feeling their backs against the wall.

Unionists that will use this as a 'big stick' were NEVER going to vote for a UI anyway.

Moderate persuadable Unionists have been exposed to the detail of what the RIC/DMP/AUX's/Black and Tans actually did, as a few posters here have been as well.

Anybody inherently decent would see that you cannot honour or commemorate formally such organisations. All a Unionist has to ask themselves is, 'how would they feel if the British Government formally commemorated the IRA'.

is_that_so

In terms of a vote here's a breakdown of how much referenda have cost.

https://www.thejournal.ie/referendums-costs-3106413-Jan2017/

FrancieBrady

Nift wrote: »

Despite what Francie claims, there isn't really too many "partionists" (how can they be, when they had/have no say in partition) its more practicality. People can take the emotion out of it and think rationally.

What? Francie knows there are very few partitionists. And the last week fully backs him up.

FrancieBrady

is_that_so wrote: »

In terms of a vote here's a breakdown of how much referenda have cost.

https://www.thejournal.ie/referendums-costs-3106413-Jan2017/

What point are you making there?

is_that_so

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What point are you making there?

I'm sharing information on costs of a referendum vote. I'm no fan of the 50%+1 theory. A vote needs to pass, firstly because it's much harder to do again and secondly it costs a lot of money.

Bishop of hope

Nift wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/a-united-ireland-would-be-a-very-different-state-a-list-of-things-that-would-have-to-be-resolved-1.3979439?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fireland%2Firish-news%2Fa-united-ireland-would-be-a-very-different-state-a-list-of-things-that-would-have-to-be-resolved-1.3979439

People need to consider all this very very carefully.

Again, i'll repeat its not some sinister evil FG plot to try and show how West Brit they. Its responsible government, shock ****ing horror.

They can't win really. I mean if they announced a border poll in the morning, perhaps their intelligent, educated middle of the road base would abandon them.

Despite what Francie claims, there isn't really too many "partionists" (how can they be, when they had/have no say in partition) its more practicality. People can take the emotion out of it and think rationally.

There are plenty of partitionists.
By that I mean people who don't want a united Ireland as things stand on the island.
Would the state here be prepared to risk going ahead with a UI with a near guaranteed unionist terror campaign coming on stream?
A civil war basically though not an open one, but a terrorist campaign that would see tit for tat killings.
Dublin and many major towns and cities would be hit if a ui took place too quickly I think.
A simple vote of yes or no won't see the actual immediate unification of Ireland

Nift

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What? Francie knows there are very few partitionists. And the last week fully backs him up.

How so? if people were pro this or whatever, it hardly makes them a partionist.

Like i said it could be argued its an example of how unwilling people would be to do what Mary Lou suggested in regards to the boyne (which if we play the historical game, ultimately led to the partition of our country)

Look we'll never agree, you seem to be unable to countenance what i'm saying. Fair enough.

Nift

Bishop of hope wrote: »

There are plenty of partitionists.
By that I mean people who don't want a united Ireland as things stand on the island.
Would the state here be prepared to risk going ahead with a UI with a near guaranteed unionist terror campaign coming on stream?
A civil war basically though not an open one, but a terrorist campaign that would see tit for tat killings.
Dublin and many major towns and cities would be hit if a ui took place too quickly I think.
A simple vote of yes or no won't see the actual immediate unification of Ireland

Ok i admit there is, but i think we're agreeing. What you propose is exactly what would happen.

Hence FG sensible approach around all this. Which people are refusing to accept.

I don't think there is anybody who is pro partition that doesn't think of it in a rational way. Like they may say no ****ing way we don't want that basket case (which you see on the journal or here) but its translation really is - i like the way things are, comfort, i hate change and doubt. Which again brings us back on topic around the RIC and 1916 etc. Loads of people were living in the day to day realities, looking at it in human nature sort of way.

I don't think there is somebody who would actively take up the gun, say, to keep our Island split..

they might take it up if a UI got rid of our sacred cows though..