RIC and DMP to be commemorated this month

FrancieBrady

Nift wrote: »

How so? if people were pro this or whatever, it hardly makes them a partionist.

Like i said it could be argued its an example of how unwilling people would be to do what Mary Lou suggested in regards to the boyne (which if we play the historical game, ultimately led to the partition of our country)

Look we'll never agree, you seem to be unable to countenance what i'm saying. Fair enough.

Not sure what you are saying. What did Mary Lou suggest?

Nift

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Not sure what you are saying. What did Mary Lou suggest?

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/celebrating-the-twelfth-across-ireland-should-be-on-the-table-in-border-poll-declares-mcdonald-38846433.html

the battle of the boyne set us on our way. Religious toxicity, plantation, famine, partition. Will people in Ballybough, north Cork, west belfast or wherever celebrate that?

No will be the exact same **** show we are seeing around this. But times 100.

I myself would but its why i have to respond on here as people are refusing to accept it.

FrancieBrady

Nift wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/celebrating-the-twelfth-across-ireland-should-be-on-the-table-in-border-poll-declares-mcdonald-38846433.html

the battle of the boyne set us on our way. Religious toxicity, plantation, famine, partition. Will people in Ballybough, north Cork, west belfast or wherever celebrate that?

No will be the exact same **** show we are seeing around this. But times 100.

I myself would but its why i have to respond on here as people are refusing to accept it.

I am sorry Nift, but i cannot decipher what you are saying in the two bolded sentences.

And I didn't know that ML had said that. I am not in the least bit surprised by it.

I worked at county level on the 1916 commemorations under the direction and advice from the Expert Group as 1000's of people did right across this country and it was drilled into us from day one that any event, discussion etc organised had to be critically careful not to open wounds. 'Respectful', 'appropriate' and 'inclusive' were the watchwords.
In this border county, there were people from the Unionist and nationalist tradition involved as well as many SF reps and ALL worked together in workshops and in discussions.

The 'mature' people at local, county and national level delivered spectacularly on that brief IMO and the opinion of many others during 2016, right across this country. It showed spectacularly that difference could be accommodated if the will and respect was there. And it showed what could be achieved if responsible leadership was present.

Varadkar, Flanagan, Madigan etc destroyed that work by ignoring the advice of the Expert Group. In short they did what the people of this country studiously avoided doing during 2016.
They should not be let near the rest of the centenary events.

Nift

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I am sorry Nift, but i cannot decipher what you are saying in the two bolded sentences.

And I didn't know that ML had said that. I am not in the least bit surprised by it.

I worked at county level on the 1916 commemorations under the direction and advice from the Expert Group as 1000's of people did right across this country and it was drilled into us from day one that any event, discussion etc organised had to be critically careful not to open wounds. 'Respectful', 'appropriate' and 'inclusive' were the watchwords.
In this border county, there were people from the Unionist and nationalist tradition involved as well as many SF reps and ALL worked together in workshops and in discussions.

The 'mature' people at local, county and national level delivered spectacularly on that brief IMO and the opinion of many others during 2016, right across this country. It showed spectacularly that difference could be accommodated if the will and respect was there. And it showed what could be achieved if responsible leadership was present.

Varadkar, Flanagan, Madigan etc destroyed that work by ignoring the advice of the Expert Group. In short they did what the people of this country studiously avoided doing during 2016.
They should not be let near the rest of the centenary events.

ok after all of the previous chat you can't get that? i clearly stated what i meant.

Ok cool we'll move on i can't be arsed. You'll invoke "the people" in your reply and we'll be back to square one. You obviously can't even understand my position. I respect your position but i don't know. Start reading the journal comments, reddit, talk to Fine Gael lay voters. You'll start to see the people aren't as measured as you suggest. yes this was a cluster**** as i said, they went against recommendations.


All the conditions around a UI (including remembering NI police and the battles that set us on our way to a divided nation) will not be universally approved by many Unionists and Republicans, lay or otherwise. This debacle around the RIC is a clear example of that. ergo imo we will never see a United Ireland. Fine Gael are clearly playing it safe due to all these issues. I know it doesn't fit the narrative around blueshirts, west brits, *****, traitors, nazis but hey ho.

A border poll while it looks great on paper will be a cluster**** of brexit proporations. It will open up huge cracks and fissures, full of hate, bile, religious toxicity, identity, civil war politcs and so forth. Who wants to pull that genie out of the bottle? Many reasonably educated people, many of whom are FG middle class voters, would probably take this position because they are capable of critical thinking. Sinn Fein led by the middle class, privately schooled Mary Lou and Blackrock boy O'Broinn among them, know they have a huge task hitting all their bases. Rabid Republicans, gaelgoirs, middle class Mary Lou's, on the fence FG's and the inner city/working class vote. Alot of half truths and double speak needed by them.

Like i said i'd be tempted to vote SF just to see them try to jump through all those hoops.

Zebra3

Edgware wrote: »

Firstly 50% +1 in favour of unity will not work.

It will work.

It's called democracy.

Everybody's vote is equal.

Something unionists have always hated.

Nift

it won't work.

FrancieBrady

Nift wrote: »

ok after all of the previous chat you can't get that? i clearly stated what i meant.

Ok cool we'll move on i can't be arsed. You'll invoke "the people" in your reply and we'll be back to square one.

All the conditions around a UI (including remembering NI police and the battles that set us on our way to a divided nation) will not be universally approved by many Unionists and Republicans, lay or otherwise. This debacle around the RIC is a clear example of that.

Nift...read carefully.

The RIC/DMP were appropriately recognised in the EG's advice without a scintilla of complaint from anybody anywhere when those guidelines were published.

The problem arose when Leo et al decided to 'inappropriately' commemorate them against the advice of his own Expert Group.

I am 'over' the Battle of Boyne, I find the period fascinating actually.

Again, the problem with the Battle of the Boyne is the way in which 'some' Unionists want to celebrate it. That is inappropriate.

Same with the other issues you mention. People, on all sides, have to be allowed to commemorate their own (as HARP have been commemorating the RIC/DMP without objection for years)

While you cannot compel people to celebrate The Battle of the Boyne, the people of 'Ballybough, north Cork, west belfast' have to accept that some will want to celebrate it.

What the 2016 events shows spectacularly is that properly and appropriately run, accommodation can be found.

Hamsterchops

Celebrate Vs Commemorate...

Nift

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Nift...read carefully.

The RIC/DMP were appropriately recognised in the EG's advice without a scintilla of complaint from anybody anywhere when those guidelines were published.

The problem arose when Leo et al decided to 'inappropriately' commemorate them against the advice of his own Expert Group.

I am 'over' the Battle of Boyne, I find the period fascinating actually.

Again, the problem with the Battle of the Boyne is the way in which 'some' Unionists want to celebrate it. That is inappropriate.

Same with the other issues you mention. People, on all sides, have to be allowed to commemorate their own (as HARP have been commemorating the RIC/DMP without objection for years)

While you cannot compel people to celebrate The Battle of the Boyne, the people of 'Ballybough, north Cork, west belfast' have to accept that some will want to celebrate it.

What the 2016 events shows spectacularly is that properly and appropriately run, accommodation can be found.

pot kettle..

anyhow, I'd bet half the people complaining didn't even realize there would be any sort of recognition. We can all be agreed it should have been done as recommended.

As i said you seem very measured. You, and most likely people you break bread with. thats you.

I follow rugby, and the amount of reasonable people, my father, my friends, my partner who can't get Ireland's call. It drives me nuts. Its a widespread position.

Again its anecdotal evidence, but its pointing to the inability of many, possibly millions in this country unable to place themselves in Unionist's shoes. And vice versa.

The battle of the boyne is fascinating. Trainspotting 2 had the hilarious scene around the song. Its all fascinating and hilarious until its not.

You seem unable to be imaginative around this. Fair enough.

1916 was our thing, of course it was mostly going to be ok. Myers was unemployed, harris a hack, and the rest silenced (prominent 1916 critics). How do you think the 1916 thing would fair in a UI?

As i've said the chatter is turning to the civil war rememberance and already we're getting civil war politics ****e.

Ok lets leave it there we could go on for ages. I hope you are right! Seems a piece of cake this United Ireland lark!

marieholmfan

Ireland's Call should be our main national anthem (as Gaelige) Far better than shonny conny song and written by a proud Northern Unionist (at least one assumes so as his father was an RUC man).

Nift wrote: »

pot kettle..

anyhow, I'd bet half the people complaining didn't even realize there would be any sort of recognition.


I follow rugby, and the amount of reasonable people, my father, my friends, my partner who can't get Ireland's call. It drives me nuts. Its a widespread position.

Again its anecdotal evidence, but its pointing to the inability of many, possibly millions in this country unable to place themselves in Unionist's shoes. And vice versa.

The battle of the boyne is fascinating. Trainspotting 2 had the hilarious scene around the song. Its all fascinating and hilarious until its not.

You seem unable to be imaginative around this. Fair enough.

1916 was our thing, of course it was mostly going to be ok. Myers was unemployed, harris a hack, and the rest silenced. How do you think the 1916 thing would fair in a UI?

As i've said the chatter is turning to the civil war and already we're getting civil war politics ****e.

Ok lets leave it there we could go on for ages. I hope you are right! Seems a piece of cake this United Ireland lark!

jimgoose

Nift wrote: »

...I follow rugby, and the amount of reasonable people, my father, my friends, my partner who can't get Ireland's call.

I hate that song. New Zealand has the Haka, we have the fuckin' Birdie Song... :pac:

marieholmfan

jimgoose wrote: »

I hate that song. New Zealand has the Haka, we have the fuckin' Birdie Song... :pac:

It's a great song. Presumably you'd prefer if we all sang 'Snooker Loopy' at the Rugby -- an absurd idea!

Nift

Its not the song i hate, its the inability to understand its reason for being!

For me its a snapshot of a much bigger problem.

Alot of its covered here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzbBcluUvv4

Even if you hate rugby its a great insight into some issues.

Drico can't understand how ardent men of the 12th can be Irish and British.

jimgoose

marieholmfan wrote: »

It's a great song. Presumably you'd prefer if we all sang 'Snooker Loopy' at the Rugby -- an absurd idea!

I'd prefer if we just sang the actual national anthem like a normal country.

marieholmfan

jimgoose wrote: »

I'd prefer if we just sang the actual national anthem like a normal country.

God Save the Queen or the Shonny Conny song?

The Nal

Ireland's Call is the pits.

Nift

I'm not trying to derail the thread with it, just consider why its there!! Rory Best is a uninoist from Northern Ireland. He plays rugby for Ireland which represents the whole Island. When we play abroad only one anthem is sung, Ireland's call. Tri-colors aren't flown. Its because it represents an all Ireland ideal. Its not the Republic. Hence why some people hate rugby. They think its cause its elite, but its more to do with its lack of partisan beliefs.

In any hypothetical United Ireland we need to accept shared cultures.

If you can't accept Ireland's call you have to wonder will you be able to accept a new anthem?

If you can't accept the RIC thing, you have to ask yourself can you accept this - https://www.rucgcfoundation.org/ruc-gc-memorial-garden/ and the like in a shared future.

these are questions we need to ask ourselves before we blindly go head first into a marriage with the others.

facehugger99

Nift wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/a-united-ireland-would-be-a-very-different-state-a-list-of-things-that-would-have-to-be-resolved-1.3979439?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fireland%2Firish-news%2Fa-united-ireland-would-be-a-very-different-state-a-list-of-things-that-would-have-to-be-resolved-1.3979439

People need to consider all this very very carefully -

We need to accept the money involved, and the economic hit we will face. Which perhaps the EU would help with. We need to persuade millions of Republicans to abandon their identities. We need to persuade millions of Unionists to abandon their identities. Both in their eyes hard won. And thats before you even get to the new generation of middle class indifferent catholics/nationalists who think like FG supporters here. Its the economy stupid. Jobs. Tax. Comfort. They'd likely vote an independent NI before they would a UI. I mean lets be honest people can't stand or stand for Ireland's call. They couldn't wrap their tiny minds around why Rory Best, a unionist couldn't sing amhran na bhfiann. They can't (even Drico couldn't) understand how a unionist considers themselves Irish and British. There is so much to get past before a border poll becomes a reality.

New constitution, new flag, new anthem, language discussion, new capitals perhaps, federalism, shared celebrations of the covenant, the rising, the battle of the boyne,. I mean and thats before you get past the absolute hatred that each side have for each other in some quarters up North.

Agree with all of the above but would also add in the very real possibility of a Loyalist terror campaign of bombing in the ROI.

I would hate to see the economic repercussions on our FDI sector of a few bombs in the IFSC.

FrancieBrady

Nift wrote: »

pot kettle..

anyhow, I'd bet half the people complaining didn't even realize there would be any sort of recognition. We can all be agreed it should have been done as recommended.

As i said you seem very measured. You, and most likely people you break bread with. thats you.

I follow rugby, and the amount of reasonable people, my father, my friends, my partner who can't get Ireland's call. It drives me nuts. Its a widespread position.

Again its anecdotal evidence, but its pointing to the inability of many, possibly millions in this country unable to place themselves in Unionist's shoes. And vice versa.

The battle of the boyne is fascinating. Trainspotting 2 had the hilarious scene around the song. Its all fascinating and hilarious until its not.

You seem unable to be imaginative around this. Fair enough.

1916 was our thing, of course it was mostly going to be ok. Myers was unemployed, harris a hack, and the rest silenced (prominent 1916 critics). How do you think the 1916 thing would fair in a UI?

As i've said the chatter is turning to the civil war rememberance and already we're getting civil war politics ****e.

Ok lets leave it there we could go on for ages. I hope you are right! Seems a piece of cake this United Ireland lark!

You call me 'unimaginative' when you cannot get your head around the need for Ireland's Call at the moment? :eek:

Nobody said a UI would be 'a piece of cake' but given what has happened here, given what is going on in Belfast at the moment...has partition been 'a piece of cake' for us all as an island? Who exactly is fooling themselves here?

Nift

facehugger99 wrote: »

Agree with all of the above but would also add in the very real possibility of a Loyalist terror campaign of bombing in the ROI.

I would hate to see the economic repercussions on our FDI sector of a few bombs in the IFSC.

Sorry yeah thats a given. I'm certain it would happen unfortunately.

If there's people (republicans) who can kill innocent women today, why wouldn't it be possible.

There's a real lack of imagination or acceptance around these issues from many people. Its dangerous.

It has to be put in bold - In a UNited Ireland two identies die. Unionism and Nationalism. People will fight and die when their identies are on the line, be it 1916 or 2026.

jimgoose

Nift wrote: »

Its not the song i hate, its the inability to understand its reason for being!

For me its a snapshot of a much bigger problem.

It's reason for being is usually given as the IRFU pre-dating partition, so we need an "inclusive" ditty to accommodate bits of the UK.

CrankyHaus

Nift wrote: »

I'm not trying to derail the thread with it, just consider why its there!!

In any hypothetical United Ireland we need to accept shared cultures.

If you can't accept Ireland's call you have to wonder will you be able to accept a new anthem?

If you can't accept the RIC thing, you have to ask yourself can you accept this - https://www.rucgcfoundation.org/ruc-gc-memorial-garden/ and the like in a shared future.

these are questions we need to ask ourselves before we blindly go head first into a marriage with the others.

Thanks, that's an interesting link.
Honestly I wouldn't consider any monument to RUC, much less the B Specials which that Garden includes, to be appropriate without at least including recognition of the many victims of the RUC including the B Specials.

I suspect that garden is a result of the politics of division of NI, where hardline Republican and Unionist parties deliberately antagonise one another to play to their respective bases, rather than the politics of reconciliation.

On the Irelands Call issue. It's a lesser song but I respect the rationale for it and the IRFU has played a blinder on including NI, to the shared benefit of Rugby on this island. The FAI is a persuasive comparison of how division is to the detriment of the sport of soccer on this island

jimgoose

Nift wrote: »

I'm not trying to derail the thread with it, just consider why its there!! Rory Best is a uninoist from Northern Ireland. He plays rugby for Ireland which represents the whole Island. When we play abroad only one anthem is sung, Ireland's call. Tri-colors aren't flown. Its because it represents an all Ireland ideal. Its not the Republic. Hence why some people hate rugby. They think its cause its elite, but its more to do with its lack of partisan beliefs.

In any hypothetical United Ireland we need to accept shared cultures.

If you can't accept Ireland's call you have to wonder will you be able to accept a new anthem?

If you can't accept the RIC thing, you have to ask yourself can you accept this - https://www.rucgcfoundation.org/ruc-gc-memorial-garden/ and the like in a shared future.

these are questions we need to ask ourselves before we blindly go head first into a marriage with the others.

The whole point of the tri-colour is green for the Gael, Orange for the visitors, and white for peace between them. Also, the first two lines of Amhrán na bhFiann go like this:

Soldiers are we, whose lives are pledged to Ireland,
Some have come from a land beyond the wave.

Sounds reasonable inclusive to me, there's nothing in that song explicitly offensive to Protestants or Unionists.

Varta

Nift wrote: »

I'm not trying to derail the thread with it, just consider why its there!! Rory Best is a uninoist from Northern Ireland. He plays rugby for Ireland which represents the whole Island. When we play abroad only one anthem is sung, Ireland's call. Tri-colors aren't flown. Its because it represents an all Ireland ideal. Its not the Republic. Hence why some people hate rugby. They think its cause its elite, but its more to do with its lack of partisan beliefs.

In any hypothetical United Ireland we need to accept shared cultures.

If you can't accept Ireland's call you have to wonder will you be able to accept a new anthem?

If you can't accept the RIC thing, you have to ask yourself can you accept this - https://www.rucgcfoundation.org/ruc-gc-memorial-garden/ and the like in a shared future.

these are questions we need to ask ourselves before we blindly go head first into a marriage with the others.

1. It represents two nations playing a game of rugby as one. It in no way represents an all-Ireland ideal.
2. There will be no marriage. A united Ireland means we get back that part of our country that is occupied by oppressors. When that happens unionists can either assimilate or go to live in Britain.

marieholmfan

Varta wrote: »

1. It represents two nations playing a game of rugby as one. It in no way represents an all-Ireland ideal.
2. There will be no marriage. A united Ireland means we get back that part of our country that is occupied by oppressors. When that happens unionists can either assimilate or go to live in Britain.

Or fight of course. They have a third option.




'Great Britain' is unlikely to form a single political unit when Ireland unifies. That's being ignored in this discussion (unless the Brexit works out great in which case Ireland won't unify).

Nift

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You call me 'unimaginative' when you cannot get your head around the need for Ireland's Call at the moment? :eek:

Nobody said a UI would be 'a piece of cake' but given what has happened here, given what is going on in Belfast at the moment...has partition been 'a piece of cake' for us all as an island? Who exactly is fooling themselves here?

wait what.... i said "who can't get Ireland's call"...sorry if its a bit vernacular but get=understand.

thats what i'm saying. I understand the need for Ireland's call!!!!!

None of it is a piece of ****ing cake...partition, unification.

and there you go buddy, our first go back to Britain comment...you were saying? that view is ten a penny.

Nift

Varta wrote: »

1. It represents two nations playing a game of rugby as one. It in no way represents an all-Ireland ideal.
2. There will be no marriage. A united Ireland means we get back that part of our country that is occupied by oppressors. When that happens unionists can either assimilate or go to live in Britain.

and francie saids the people understand:D

not your all- ireland ideal.

yeah good luck with your position. its completely ignorant and will fail. Sinn Fein have recognised that compromise is the only way already

THE_SHEEP

intellectual dosser wrote: »

And its here that as responsible for it that he is I have to agree with Leo Varadkar that this shambles has pushed a United Ireland further away, it has given unionists a big stick just as they were feeling their backs against the wall.

But the problem here lies with Leo and Charlie . They didn't do their homework and went on some " self glory " crusade ( also went against advice from other quarters ) . Now they have the " neck " to blame everybody else !!

Its Leo and Charlie ( aka the glory hunters ) who have damaged the prospects of a United Ireland , and nobody else !!

intellectual dosser

THE_SHEEP wrote: »

But the problem here lies with Leo and Charlie . They didn't do their homework and went on some " self glory " crusade ( also went against advice from other quarters ) . Now they have the " neck " to blame everybody else !!

Its Leo and Charlie ( aka the glory hunters ) who have damaged the prospects of a United Ireland , and nobody else !!

I agree that they should take responsibility for this cluster. They should have approached this much differently, taking advice and handling concerns carefully. They didnt.

But regardless of blame, the outcome means that unity is further away today than it was two weeks ago.

Nift

jimgoose wrote: »

The whole point of the tri-colour is green for the Gael, Orange for the visitors, and white for peace between them. Also, the first two lines of Amhrán na bhFiann go like this:

Soldiers are we, whose lives are pledged to Ireland,
Some have come from a land beyond the wave.

Sounds reasonable inclusive to me, there's nothing in that song explicitly offensive to Protestants or Unionists.

eh yeah i think we all get that. But the tri-color could be all orange for how much the Unionists give a ****. Its the symbolism that matters.

But sure they can **** off back to britain am i right?

it didn't take long for a few of our points to be shown as correct.