RIC and DMP to be commemorated this month

sbsquarepants

Nift wrote: »

Leo Varadkar has said he wants a United Ireland in his lifetime. Now he could be lying, but then so could Sinn Fein. That's politics.

Were his lips moving when he said it? That's the the easiest way to tell if Leo's lying.

Sir Oxman

Nift wrote: »

I've already said that if you read back. I made the point that if he announced a border poll in the morning, he would alienate his whole base.

He can't.
That's completely up to the UK govt.

FrancieBrady

Aegir wrote: »

so punish the whole unionist community because same have gone down the route of violence?

did you really mean to say that?

actually, the hypocrisy consistently shown by a number of republicans on here would suggest you did mean it.

good man Aegir.

Anybody, republican or unionist, who agitates against the democratically expressed wish of the people is not entitled (and doesn't get) to parity of esteem. The IRA didn't get it and I dare say didn't expect it during a conflict/war.

Not all Unionists are going to agitate against it, in fact the majority have said they won't. Only 18% have said when asked that they couldn't live in a UI, that means they are either planning to leave like Arlene Foster or fight it.

jimgoose

Sir Oxman wrote: »

He can't.
That's completely up to the UK govt.

One possibility you never hear mentioned is that of re-drawing the border where it arguably should have been in the first instance, reducing the size of Northern Ireland to South Antrim, North Down, and bits of Derry and Armagh.

FrancieBrady

Nift wrote: »

I'm not a classist but the last referendum we had a car had to go around Ballybough with a speaker from Mary Lou all day ( i was off) telling people to go out and vote. Now i know that doesn't happen in other FG strongholds cause my brother lives in terenure and my mother lives in Dundrum.

these are realities. Its unfortunate Mary Lou, knows this more than most you having gone to Notre Dame etc but its the reality.

What in god's name is that about??? Am I the only one having difficulty here?

Nift maybe wait until you finish work.

Varta

Nift wrote: »

and francie saids the people understand:D

not your all- ireland ideal.

yeah good luck with your position. its completely ignorant and will fail. Sinn Fein have recognised that compromise is the only way already

With that comment you are demonstrating the same level of ignorance and arrogance that Varadkar has been demonstrating over the last few days.

How can you compromise with unionism? Be part unionist? If, after Ireland is reunited, we acknowledge unionism then we will not be an independent country. What part of the word unionist do you not understand?

Nift

Sir Oxman wrote: »

He can't.
That's completely up to the UK govt.

yeah in the way that its being framed...i.e that the craven blueshirt bastard is a westbrit who doesn't want a United Ireland.

the fact he can't is part of it.

Lets say if he indicated he was going to put pressure on the uk then.

FrancieBrady

jimgoose wrote: »

I'm an FG type, for the most part, and at the moment I would quite happily strangle Leo. He could well have fucked it this time. Not only does he instigate and back this latest disaster, but afterwards he adopts his disappointed, "everyone is an intolerant clodhopper except me" horsepuckey. :pac:

I have voted for Heather Humphreys and actually worked along with her on the county's 1916 events. But so disgusted am I at how all that earnest and good work has been destroyed and set back by the antics of FG and her own political oneupmanship, she won't be getting a vote here next time.

Nift

Varta wrote: »

With that comment you are demonstrating the same level of ignorance and arrogance that Varadkar has been demonstrating over the last few days.

How can you compromise with unionism? Be part unionist? If, after Ireland is reunited, we acknowledge unionism then we will not be an independent country. What part of the word unionist do you not understand?

jesus again read back over the thread i made that exact point.

Nift

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What in god's name is that about??? Am I the only one having difficulty here?

Nift maybe wait until you finish work.

no need to be a condescending so and so

-

i'm not a classist (caveat cause i realise it sounds a **** thing to say)

but (in) the last referendum there was a Sinn Fein car driving around Ballybough on the day of the vote, with a speaker, the voice of Mary Lou being played, ( i was off work sitting in my apartment) telling people to go out and vote. Now i know that doesn't happen ( a FG car being driven around on voting day) in other FG strongholds cause my brother lives in terenure and my mother lives in Dundrum ( i asked them)

I use the above story as an example of voting apathy in certain parts of Dublin as you are (hypocritically) asking me to provide evidence. I can't apart from anecdotal evidence, just like yourself. Fine Gael voters by the most part are middle class and educated. They would get out and vote and the polls are indicating the majority are still FG voters.

Edgware

Having watched Shankill by the Sea last night I'm afraid that it will take a very very big change in attitudes in the North before the Loyalist working class would contemplate abandoning the Crown to be led by bozos like Varadkar, Martin, McDonald etc

Varta

Nift wrote: »

well said, an obvious kite flying exercise. Risky but i think Fg know their base. As i said if FG went full border poll they run the risk of their base actually abandoning them. We have far too many sensible, intelligent people in this country, and alot of others who like normalcy, comfort and continuity. A border poll, and United Ireland is a path to chaos.

This is the most accurate thing I have heard in the last few days of the RIC fiasco. It perfectly sums up fine gaelers.

FrancieBrady

Nift wrote: »

ah seriously ffs

Read it, it doesn't make an ounce of sense.

I'm not a classist but the last referendum we had a car had to go around Ballybough with a speaker from Mary Lou all day ( i was off) telling people to go out and vote. Now i know that doesn't happen in other FG strongholds cause my brother lives in terenure and my mother lives in Dundrum.

these are realities. Its unfortunate Mary Lou, knows this more than most you having gone to Notre Dame etc but its the reality.

facehugger99

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I have voted for Heather Humphreys

*snigger.

Sure you have

jimgoose

Nift wrote: »

...the craven blueshirt bastard is a westbrit who doesn't want a United Ireland...

General Eoin O'Duffy was a corporatist, fascist lunatic who counted among his aims a united Ireland. Just sayin', is all. :pac:

Nift

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Read it, it doesn't make an ounce of sense.

sorry i edited it there...i apologise. it was missing the context.

its just to do with the voting apathy of many SF supporters and the differences with the base support of Fine Gael.

marieholmfan

jimgoose wrote: »

General Eoin O'Duffy was a corporatist, fascist lunatic who counted among his aims a united Ireland. Just sayin', is all. :pac:

Correct and while he may have had some objectionable qualities he certainly wasn't craven.

jimgoose

marieholmfan wrote: »

Correct and while he may have had some objectionable qualities he certainly wasn't craven.

Indeed, he was quite magnificent.

FrancieBrady

Nift wrote: »

no need to be a condescending so and so

-

i'm not a classist (caveat cause i realise it sounds a **** thing to say)

but (in) the last referendum there was a Sinn Fein car driving around Ballybough on the day of the vote, with a speaker, the voice of Mary Lou being played, ( i was off work sitting in my apartment) telling people to go out and vote. Now i know that doesn't happen ( a FG car being driven around on voting day) in other FG strongholds cause my brother lives in terenure and my mother lives in Dundrum ( i asked them)

I use the above story as an example of voting apathy in certain parts of Dublin as you are (hypocritically) asking me to provide evidence. I can't apart from anecdotal evidence, just like yourself. Fine Gael voters by the most part are middle class and educated. They would get out and vote and the polls are indicating the majority are still FG voters.

What 'anecdotal' evidence have I presented on voter apathy?

Like Facehugger you need to do some research on what a 'majority' is. I can assure you 30% (as of Nov 2019) of the electorate is not a majority.

facehugger99

The single biggest problem with unification will always be the cost - €12bn a year will reduce living standards in the ROI beyond what anyone, other than the most fanatical Shinner, is prepared to pay.

The second biggest issue is the likelihood of Loyalist bombs going off in Dublin, Cork or Galway.

Way, way down the list of issues, is remembrance events, national anthems, flags, dail representation and other such inconsequential sh;te.

The fact that the inconsequential stuff provokes such drama is, in itself, very instructive.

There's a few deluded barstool lads that think it's a numbers game - I wouldn't trust them with a pair of scissors nevermind a constitution issue as complex as unification.

Leo and his band of useful idiots just managed to expose how far away we are.

He even invoked the most famous line of all, he'd like to see it "in his lifetime". That's always been the preferred time frame, 20-30 years away, just like it was 30 years ago.

FrancieBrady

facehugger99 wrote: »

The single biggest problem with unification will always be the cost - €12bn a year will reduce living standards in the ROI beyond what anyone, other than the most fanatical Shinner, is prepared to pay.

The second biggest issue is the likelihood of Loyalist bombs going off in Dublin, Cork or Galway.

Way, way down the list of issues, is remembrance events, national anthems, flags, dail representation and other such inconsequential sh;te.

The fact that the inconsequential stuff provokes such drama is, in itself, very instructive.

There's a few deluded barstool lads that think it's a numbers game - I wouldn't trust them with a pair of scissors nevermind a constitution issue as complex as unification.

Leo and his band of useful idiots just managed to expose how far away we are.

He even invoked the most famous line of all, he'd like to see it "in his lifetime". That's always been the preferred time frame, 20-30 years away, just like it was 30 years ago.

Partition is only 99 years old FH.

James Brown

fundi wrote: »

As someone else said "Before calling the RIC and unarmed DMP traitors etc you should remember that during the Civil War both sides referred to the other as Traitors too. And they were all Irish men as well. Many of us like to look back at our history through emerald coloured glasses and see only one side. And that is as much the fault of the way our history was taught in school. Only now we should be mature enough as a nation to take off those glasses and see our history from both sides."

Over 500 of the RIC were murdered. Out of curiosity, how many did they kill in retaliation?

You keep confusing the civil war with the occupation.
Also anyone, (British or Empire nostalgist) today who feels insulted because the Irish state won't celebrate the Black and Tans is nobody we should be trying to appease anyway IMO.
It was an attempt to whitewash history by an Empire/landed gentry centric party and the Irish people of all stripes including some in Fine Gael itself wouldn't wear it.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So we can conclude that NOBODY has said they are 'more Irish' than those Irish who served in the RIC/DMP.

Cheers for clearing that up.

Yes they did look @Maireholm's comments re the RIC and Fergal Keane there was definitely that implication.
Of course you conveniently do not see that.

Also NOW you claim that you are against the RIC/DMP because they were fighting against the UI.
By that logic you should be against SF collaborators with the British in Stormont. McGuinness meeting the queen.
FG/FF partionists signing the good friday agreement.
Also all those who were pro-treaty in the civil war you should be as vehemently against them as well.
But you obviously draw your mental line somewhere at the RIC/DMP of the 20's you class them all as the enemy all shades of them. Why stop there?

You ignore the face that there is much more than one shade of Nationalism many in Ireland wanted Home Rule. Even those working for the RIC/DMP were supporters of the Nationalist Party and wanted Home Rule. Also those who fought for the BA in the hope it would would achieve HR.

As another poster pointed out the 'Mandate' in 1918 between the nationalist was much closer than the seats suggested percentage wise as it was the first past the post system.
The irony is all that achieved afer the war of independence and civil war was a jazzed up Home Rule with a different name. The Free State.
Yet you probably see Redmonite Home Rulers as sell outs?

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So we can conclude that NOBODY has said they are 'more Irish' than those Irish who served in the RIC/DMP.

Cheers for clearing that up.

Yes they did look @Maireholm's comments re the RIC and Fergal Keane there was definitely that implication.
Of course you conveniently do not see that.

Also NOW you claim that you are against the RIC/DMP because they were fighting against the UI.

By that logic you should be against -
SF collaborators with the British in Stormont. McGuinness meeting the queen.
The Dail partionists signing the good friday agreement removing art 2 and 3
Also all those who were pro-treaty in the civil war you should be as vehemently against them as well. Traitors to Republican ideals.
But you obviously draw your mental line somewhere at the RIC/DMP of the 20's in particular you class them all as the enemy - all shades of them. Why stop there?

You ignore the fact that there is much more than one shade of Nationalism many in Ireland wanted Home Rule. Even some of those working for the RIC/DMP were supporters of the Nationalist Party and wanted Home Rule. Also those who fought for the BA in the hope it would would achieve HR.
Of course in your mind they were obstacles to a UI not true Nationalists.

As another poster pointed out the 'Mandate' in 1918 between the nationalists was much closer than the seats suggested percentage wise. As it was the first past the post system.
The irony is all that achieved afer the war of independence and civil war was a jazzed up Home Rule with a different name. The Free State.
Yet you probably see Redmonite Home Rulers as sell outs?

Akabusi

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I have voted for Heather Humphreys and actually worked along with her on the county's 1916 events. But so disgusted am I at how all that earnest and good work has been destroyed and set back by the antics of FG and her own political oneupmanship, she won't be getting a vote here next time.

Yeah sure you did.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Yes they did look @Maireholm's comments re the RIC and Fergal Keane there was definitely that implication.
Of course you conveniently do not see that.

Fergal Keane was in the RIC/DMP?

Also NOW you claim that you are against the RIC/DMP because they were fighting against the UI.

They were fighting, killing and brutalising in order to prevent an Independent Ireland. There is a difference

By that logic you should be against -
SF collaborators with the British in Stormont. McGuinness meeting the queen.
The Dail partionists signing the good friday agreement removing art 2 and 3
Also all those who were pro-treaty in the civil war you should be as vehemently against them as well. Traitors to Republican ideals.
But you obviously draw your mental line somewhere at the RIC/DMP of the 20's in particular you class them all as the enemy - all shades of them. Why stop there?

Why on earth would that be the case?

You ignore the face that there is much more than one shade of Nationalism many in Ireland wanted Home Rule. Even those working for the RIC/DMP were supporters of the Nationalist Party and wanted Home Rule. Also those who fought for the BA in the hope it would would achieve HR.

As another poster pointed out the 'Mandate' in 1918 between the nationalists was much closer than the seats suggested percentage wise as it was the first past the post system.
The irony is all that achieved afer the war of independence and civil war was a jazzed up Home Rule with a different name. The Free State.
Yet you probably see Redmonite Home Rulers as sell outs?

I understand all shades of political opinion on this island. And if I don't I genuinely attempt to.

Not sure what that has to do with anything anyway.

feargale

lmimmfn wrote: »

What does this have to do with a United Ireland?, did i miss something?

You did. Google Nelson McCausland's article in the Belfast Telegraph the other day.

James Brown

Akabusi wrote: »

Yeah sure you did.

Again with this. When a party's support goes up and down in various elections where do you think the votes come from or go to?

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Fergal Keane was in the RIC/DMP?

Not what I said. Others said that Fergal Keane was tainted because he had ancestors who were RIC. Implication less Irish than others who our branded as 'ours' like Connolly.

They were fighting, killing and brutalising in order to prevent an Independent Ireland. There is a difference

So did the Free State forces during the Civil War - yet many are venerated as heroes like Collins.

Why on earth would that be the case?



I understand all shades of political opinion on this island. And if I don't I genuinely attempt to.

Because for you there seems to be only one shade of Nationalism and you conveinty draw the line at the killing and bruatising of the RIC as you put it.
Not all were involved in the brutalising by the way there was many more honourable people amongst them as well.
But there was viciousness on both sides.

Yet the Queen of England who's cousin Lord Mounbatten was blown up while fishing - could bring herself not only to meet McGuinness and shake his hand. There was also attempt to use a few words of Irish.

That my friend is real reconciliation a symbolic gesture. Leo is 100% right there will never be a UI with the attitude those have against the RIC/DMP comm. There needs to be real reconciliation and symbolic gestures of acceptance of the complex nature of Irish history.
Otherwise the Unionists will feel thier traditions would never be even tolerated in a UI.
People are showing little foresight by being so anti these commemorations which are acknowledgement of the past. Yet there seems to be a myopic view of those in the RIC/DMP from those who anti-commemoration.

There is not just one shade of Nationalism or Irishness it is much more complicated than many are trying to pretend it is.

FrancieBrady

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Again with this. When a party's support goes up and down in various elections where do you think the votes come from or go to?

I'd ignore it Matt. that's two posters now. They are gonna believe what they want to believe without facts. It's how they roll in life. 'If I think it, therefore it is true'.