RIC and DMP to be commemorated this month

Akabusi

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Again with this. When a party's support goes up and down in various elections where do you think the votes come from or go to?

Francie has never come across a a typical floating voter.

horsebox1977

facehugger99 wrote: »

The single biggest problem with unification will always be the cost - €12bn a year will reduce living standards in the ROI beyond what anyone, other than the most fanatical Shinner, is prepared to pay.

The second biggest issue is the likelihood of Loyalist bombs going off in Dublin, Cork or Galway.

Way, way down the list of issues, is remembrance events, national anthems, flags, dail representation and other such inconsequential sh;te.

The fact that the inconsequential stuff provokes such drama is, in itself, very instructive.

There's a few deluded barstool lads that think it's a numbers game - I wouldn't trust them with a pair of scissors nevermind a constitution issue as complex as unification.

Leo and his band of useful idiots just managed to expose how far away we are.

He even invoked the most famous line of all, he'd like to see it "in his lifetime". That's always been the preferred time frame, 20-30 years away, just like it was 30 years ago.

According to a report compiled by Senator Mark Daly - the 12b figure is closer to 700m.

The UK military budget some how got rolled into that figure - either way the 12b is nowhere near accurate.

The likelihood of Loyalist bombs going off is also extremely remote to be honest for a number of reasons. The head of the UVF is willing to sit down and discuss how Loyalist will fit into a UI.

And threats from other Loyalists like Jamie Bryon and Jim Wilson shouldn't really be taken seriously.

I'm not ruling out Loyalist disruption or violence but I don't think it will be as bad as one would expect.

James Brown

Akabusi wrote: »

Francie has never come across a a typical floating voter.

Only a certain type of party shill will support and vote for the same party changing tack trying to divert depending on the latest damage control effort. Having opinions is where it's at. If you do, likely, you don't always vote the exact same way and you are open to criticism along with giving it.
Francie always engages on topic.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Not what I said. Others said that Fergal Keane was tainted because he had ancestors who were RIC. Implication less Irish than others who our branded as 'ours' like Connolly.

I'd have thought 'tainted' refers to tainted by the acts the RIC/DMP carried out.

So did the Free State forces during the Civil War - yet many are venerated as heros like Collins.

Yes, Leo has his portrait hanging in his office.
I don't hold anyone in our political history as a 'hero'. Everybody has good and bad things they did to answer for.

Because for you there seems to be only one shade of Nationalism and you conveinty draw the line at the killing and bruatising of the RIC as you put it.
Not all were involved in the brutalising by the way.
But there was viciousness on both sides.

My issue with the RIC/DMP/AUX's/Black and Tans was that they were agents of an oppressive invader.
I think all violence is brutal and vicious.

Yet the Queen of England who's cousin Lord Mounbatten was blown up while fishing - could bring herself not only to meet McGuinness and shake his hand. And also attempt to use a few words of Irish.

That my friend is reconciliation. Leo is 100% right there will never be a UI with the attitude those have against the RIC/DMP comm. There needs to be real reconciliation and symbolic gestures of acceptance.
Otherwise the Unionists will feel thier traditions would never be even tolerated in a UI.
People are showing little foresight by being so anti these commemorations an acknowledgement of the past.

NOBODY, repeat NOBODY has a problem with recognising the role of the RIC/DMP. They are included in the EG's programme for this phase of commemoration. They are not included in reccomndations for 'formal state commemorations for obvious reasons, the exact same reasons the Queen will never be formally commemorating any iteration of the IRA on bahalf of the British state.

There is not just one shade of Nationalism or Irishness it is much more complicated than many are trying to pretend it is.

I never claimed there was.

facehugger99

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Again with this. When a party's support goes up and down in various elections where do you think the votes come from or go to?

Probably not from the SF sock-puppets who spend all their time on Boards.

gormdubhgorm

horsebox1977 wrote: »

According to a report compiled by Senator Mark Daly - the 12b figure is closer to 700m.

The UK military budget some how got rolled into that figure - either way the 12b is nowhere near accurate.

The likelihood of Loyalist bombs going off is also extremely remote to be honest for a number of reasons. The head of the UVF is willing to sit down and discuss how Loyalist will fit into a UI.

And threats from other Loyalists like Jamie Bryon and Jim Wilson shouldn't really be taken seriously.

I'm not ruling out Loyalist disruption or violence but I don't think it will be as bad as one would expect.

I think that is very optimistic. I think many of them would take up arms and there could be another 30 years of troubles.
Rather than a UI I think a better tactic would be for the 26 counties to return to it's Dominion/commonwealth status. Then it would easier to get on a par with NI. SF already power share uin the North so there is that level of acceptance. Ireland could be united as dominion of the crown. None of that oath to the Monarch stuff either this time though.
Also it would make Brexit much handier.

Then give it about 50 years more a UI in a republic could be created.
One step back two steps forward.

seamus

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I can only go on what's written and it is immaterial anyway. The knives are out and they are all backtracking in the hope Charlie is out front and centre taking the blame.

Well it's not immaterial, it's the difference between the party throwing Charlie under the bus, and a proper split starting to form.

If Leo and Regina both blame Charlie, then Charlie is going to take the fall for this leading up to the election.

But if Leo is sticking with him and Regina is sticking the knife in, then that speaks to a division opening up, which is the last thing FG need if we're on the verge of a GE.

J Mysterio

facehugger99 wrote: »

The single biggest problem with unification will always be the cost - €12bn a year will reduce living standards in the ROI beyond what anyone, other than the most fanatical Shinner, is prepared to pay.

The second biggest issue is the likelihood of Loyalist bombs going off in Dublin, Cork or Galway.

Way, way down the list of issues, is remembrance events, national anthems, flags, dail representation and other such inconsequential sh;te.

The fact that the inconsequential stuff provokes such drama is, in itself, very instructive.

There's a few deluded barstool lads that think it's a numbers game - I wouldn't trust them with a pair of scissors nevermind a constitution issue as complex as unification.

Leo and his band of useful idiots just managed to expose how far away we are.

He even invoked the most famous line of all, he'd like to see it "in his lifetime". That's always been the preferred time frame, 20-30 years away, just like it was 30 years ago.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion on this issue but I absolutely abhore that term, and I'm seeing it a lot the last few days.

KWAG2019

seamus wrote: »

Well it's not immaterial, it's the difference between the party throwing Charlie under the bus, and a proper split starting to form.

If Leo and Regina both blame Charlie, then Charlie is going to take the fall for this leading up to the election.

But if Leo is sticking with him and Regina is sticking the knife in, then that speaks to a division opening up, which is the last thing FG need if we're on the verge of a GE.

It is what the country needs. A Bruton Flanagan Unionist Party. I expect they’d do well in parts of Dublin and midlands. Remnants of rest in a rural FG.

Akabusi

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Only a certain type of party shill will support and vote for the same party changing tack trying to divert depending on the latest damage control effort. Having opinions is where it's at. If you do, likely, you don't always vote the exact same way and you are open to criticism along with giving it.
Francie always engages on topic.

Francie spouts out a lot of drivel, but on this general point I agree with him. However i think he is fibbing saying he voted for FG in the last election, his posts would suggest otherwise. That is all.

facehugger99

horsebox1977 wrote: »

According to a report compiled by Senator Mark Daly - the 12b figure is closer to 700m.

The report is a joke - actually genuinely funny.

It pastes in another report that basically states at the outset that they've made up all of the figures.

That's the extent of their "economic modelling".:D

The actual costs will be closer to €20bn a year IMO.

James Brown

facehugger99 wrote: »

Probably not from the SF sock-puppets who spend all their time on Boards.

Yes anyone who criticises FG policy is in SF even members of FG.

FrancieBrady

facehugger99 wrote: »

The report is a joke - actually genuinely funny.

It pastes in another report that basically states at the outset that they've made up all of the figures.

That's the extent of their "economic modelling".:D

The actual costs will be closer to €20bn a year IMO.

:D:D Oh dear. Criticises a many faceted report for 'making up figures' then makes up a figure of his own.

Genuinely wiping my afternoon tea off the floor here. :D

jimgoose

J Mysterio wrote: »

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion on this issue but I absolutely abhore that term, and I'm seeing it a lot the last few days.

Originally, the term "Barstool Republican" referred to the sort of individual who would gladly die for Róisín Dubh provided he/she could do it from the safety of their favourite high stool in the local. It has been misappropriated lately as a derogatory term for any dilettante who dares mouth an opinion contrary to that of some other gowl on the Internet.

gormdubhgorm

seamus wrote: »

Well it's not immaterial, it's the difference between the party throwing Charlie under the bus, and a proper split starting to form.

If Leo and Regina both blame Charlie, then Charlie is going to take the fall for this leading up to the election.

But if Leo is sticking with him and Regina is sticking the knife in, then that speaks to a division opening up, which is the last thing FG need if we're on the verge of a GE.

I think Regina is a far bigger problem than Charlie. As what Regina did is more tangible to anyone regardless of any political persuasion. Greed, entitlement, fraud, a con-artist.

Whereas the anti-Charlie brigade will only be the fringe madser element or those looking for kudos.

For example look at the title of this you tube video 'The Treacherous Ignorance of FG.' :rolleyes:

J Mysterio

jimgoose wrote: »

Originally, the term "Barstool Republican" referred to the sort of individual who would gladly die for Róisín Dubh provided he/she could do it from the safety of their favourite high stool in the local. It has been misappropriated lately as a derogatory term for any dilettante who dares mouth an opinion contrary to that of some other gowl on the Internet.

Same goes for 'armchair _____'.

FrancieBrady

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Yes anyone who criticises FG policy is in SF even members of FG.

The actual fact is, and people can take this or leave it, I have voted FG, FF, Labour in GE's in the past and have never voted for the SF candidate here as I never really thought that much of him as a Rep. If he is replaced now with Matt Carthy, I would certainly consider giving my first vote in a GE to SF.

I have voted for them in local elections as I have for other parties too. I am actually the archetypal 'floating voter'.

marieholmfan

Akabusi wrote: »

Yeah sure you did.

I give preferences to Fine Gael in every election - a third or fourth preference is not a ringing endorsement of everything about a party and candidate - it can reflect respect for a candidate and dislike of a party.

Akabusi

Very difficult to put costs to a UI, too many unknown factors, how will Brexit play out, what sort of health service will they have up there in a UI, would the social welfare payments in the North rise to the level they are in the Republic or would the Republic's have to drop towards the North, what aid would the EU give. Probably loads more things to consider.

KWAG2019

marieholmfan wrote: »

I give preferences to Fine Gael in every election - a third or fourth preference is not a ringing endorsement of everything about a party and candidate - it can reflect respect for a candidate and dislike of a party.

That’s the problem: giving preferences to a candidate. The candidate is always s a slave to the party.

gormdubhgorm

Akabusi wrote: »

Francie spouts out a lot of drivel, but on this general point I agree with him. However i think he is fibbing saying he voted for FG in the last election, his posts would suggest otherwise. That is all.

When I read Francie Brady's posts all I can think of is Francie Bellew.
A fella who never got the chance to vote FG!
Great full back though.
A farmer like him would have loved Cumann na nGaedheal

Akabusi

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The actual fact is, and people can take this or leave it, I have voted FG, FF, Labour in GE's in the past and have never voted for the SF candidate here as I never really thought that much of him as a Rep. If he is replaced now with Matt Carthy, I would certainly consider giving my first vote in a GE to SF.

I have voted for them in local elections as I have for other parties too. I am actually the archetypal 'floating voter'.

Yeah Matt will get in if he is nominated, one of the safer constituencies for SF to grab a seat.

gormdubhgorm

KWAG2019 wrote: »

It is what the country needs. A Bruton Flanagan Unionist Party. I expect they’d do well in parts of Dublin and midlands. Remnants of rest in a rural FG.

Nothing hyperbolic in this post.
I suspect you are a floating voter? :rolleyes:

Akabusi

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

When I read Francie Brady's posts all I can think of is Francie Bellew.
A fella who never got the chance to vote FG!
Great full back though.
A farmer like him would have loved Cumann na nGaedheal

Was never very fast but you'd only want to ever try go by him once on the field.

marieholmfan

KWAG2019 wrote: »

That’s the problem: giving preferences to a candidate. The candidate is always s a slave to the party.

Not here because of the preference system.

I'd say that it tends to over reward localism; after all it will be on local issues that you will form a positive opinion of 'the other side'.

marieholmfan

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

When I read Francie Brady's posts all I can think of is Francie Bellew.
A fella who never got the chance to vote FG!
Great full back though.
A farmer like him would have loved Cumann na nGaedheal

Francie Bellew is still alive and he may have the chance to vote FG yet!

Zebra3

horsebox1977 wrote: »

And threats from other Loyalists like Jamie Bryon

Wee Jamie is marvelous!!!

Great entertainment!!!

Wouldn't surprise me if over half his Twitter followers were nationalists/republicans.

On a more serious note, when UI becomes a reality after the border poll what would loyalists' demands be if they started a bombing campaign?

Westminster would be delighted to be rid of them and wouldn't want them back.

If there's an independent Scotland, they wouldn't want any sort of deep union with NI.

They can't demand an independent NI that they are in a minority in.

A smaller NI with a unionist majority, not that it would happen, would be economically unviable.

Very open to answers on this.

Boggles

'Come Out, Ye Black and Tans' hits number one on the iTunes singles chart in UK

ricero

Boggles wrote: »

'Come Out, Ye Black and Tans' hits number one on the iTunes singles chart in UK

Great to see. Great way of showing Fine Gael, Varadkar and Flanagan what idiots they were for even entertaining the idea.

Also a nice little cash windfall for the wolf tones.

FrancieBrady

Zebra3 wrote: »

Wee Jamie is marvelous!!!

Great entertainment!!!

Wouldn't surprise me if over half his Twitter followers were nationalists/republicans.

On a more serious note, when UI becomes a reality after the border poll what would loyalists' demands be if they started a bombing campaign?

Westminster would be delighted to be rid of them and wouldn't want them back.

If there's an independent Scotland, they wouldn't want any sort of deep union with NI.

They can't demand an independent NI that they are in a minority in.

A smaller NI with a unionist majority, not that it would happen, would be economically unviable.

Very open to answers on this.

It is exactly what that Loyalist leader asked too. Other than roadblocks and protests, what would the point of an armed campaign be?

They were never able to mount any sustained campaign outside their own areas without the collusion of the RUC or British army allegedly anyhow.

Moderate Unionism, which is in the majority by far will have no stomach for it and the evidence shows that despite the NEVER NEVER NEVER attitude that they eventually decide to get on with. The Anglo Irish Agreement, The Marches, The Flag, The GFA, and it looks like the border in the Irish Sea will be the same as attempts to organise mass protests by Bryson etc have failed so far.