RIC and DMP to be commemorated this month

fundi

jmcc wrote: »

The RIC guarded food being exported from Ireland when approximately 2 million Irish people starved to death.

So you want to go all the way back to the famine? OK.

As said before and elsewhere, the “food” which Ireland exported both before and during the Famine was mainly oats. Oats, as Dr Johnson famously stated in his dictionary, are “usually given to horses”. In the contemporary period the preparation of oats for human consumption took four to five hours. Oats were used in some of the workhouses, and the flax growing area in the North, but It is doubtful whether the average Irish farmer would have had either the knowledge, or the means, of rendering them palatable.

I also wonder what you would be saying now if the British had only supplied the starving Irish people with food which, in that period, was “usually given to horses”.

Both before and during the Famine, Ireland was exporting and importing significant quantities of wheat. The reason for this is that there are two types. The bulk of the wheat grown in Ireland then, as now, would have been winter wheat. This requires a mild damp climate. It is sown in the autumn, and is only suitable for feeding cattle. The wheat used for bread-making is known as spring or hard wheat, and requires harsh winters and hot dry summers. The presumption, therefore, is that Ireland was exporting the winter wheat which it grew best, and was importing the additional amount of spring wheat it needed for bread-making, as it does today.

In 1844, the year before the Famine, Ireland exported 94,000 tonnes of wheat and 314,000 tonnes of oats, and imported 23,000 tons of wheat. Net exports: 385,000 tonnes.

In 1847, at the height of the Famine, Ireland exported 39,000 tonnes of wheat, and 98,000 tonnes of oats , and imported 199,000 tonnes of wheat, 12,000 tonnes of oats and 682,000 tonnes of maize. Net imports of 756,000 tonnes, a change of 1,140,000 tonnes. The country lacked the milling, the baking, and the transport infrastructure needed cope with the change in the diet of almost half the population. The maize had to be milled twice.

Given the exceptional circumstances, that the response was inadequate cannot be denied. But how much more could have been processed is open to question.

The suggestion, often made elsewhere, that the problem could have been easily solved by ceasing all “food” exports lacks credibility, and your implication that Ireland was actually a net exporter of food is directly contradicted by the facts.

Again I ask...about 513 RIC people were murdered in those years before independence....how many did the RIC kill in retaliation?

FrancieBrady

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

If the word 'mark' rather than commemorate had been used, would people have kept their knickers untwisted ?

They were to be 'marked' 'remembered' during the centenary. I know that is an inconvenient truth, like the truth about what the RIC/DMP did, is too. But there you go.

I Am The Law

I didn't think anything could be better than the Noel Grelish thread, I was wrong.

This is my new favourite thread.

Regards.. I am the Law.

The Rape of Lucretia

jmcc wrote: »

Sounds like a regular Marty Whelan show but without the elevator music.

Let's put it in simpler terms: The Black and Tans were terrorists. They were sent to Ireland to terrorise, torture and murder Irish people. Varadkar, Flanagan and Bruton want to commemorate these terrorists and their murderous activities against the Irish people.

Regards...jmcc

How do the numbers stack up :
- people killed by the terrorist rebels
vs.
- people killed by the B&Ts

?

GoneHome

jmcc wrote: »

Let's put it in simpler terms: The Black and Tans were terrorists. They were sent to Ireland to terrorise, torture and murder Irish people. Varadkar, Flanagan and Bruton want to commemorate these terrorists and their murderous activities against the Irish people.

This is exactly what it boils down to, why in the name of everything would the Irish nation want to commerate them. This whole debacale will be the cause of FG losing the next election and that's no bad thing IMO

Galwayguy35

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Look, bad stuff went down. On all sides.
And it was the republican faction that kicked things off in 16, so the greater portion of blame must lie with them.
But there were the good and the innocent on all sides too. And they deserve their lives and their roles remembered with respect.

It would seem to me that much of the bandwagon merchants taking glee from this postponement are really just trying to drum up some anti-FG feeling as we roll into an election. If the Govt had turned down a recommendation to run this event, people would have jumped on that with equally opposite zeal, if they thought there was cynical political capital to be mined.

The opposition to this goes a bit deeper than the chance to give FG a bit of a kicking.

gormdubhgorm

jmcc wrote: »

.
So you want to include the British Army too? Why not, in honour of Charlie Flanagan's anti-semitic, Nazi-loving bigot of a father, add the Nazi concentration camp guards? After all, that's what the RIC were during the Famine.

You've agreed that you want to commemorate the Black and Tans, then? The only thing sparser than your knowledge of Irish history is your knowledge of Star Trek movies. Sad that!

Regards...jmcc

I never mentioned anything about commemoration of the BA don't know where you are getting that from. You know well what I mean by referring to the RIC and DMP as a broad church.
Some Home Rulers most born and bred in Ireland some convicts from England etc
Even Marty Whelan is not as disingenuous or patronising to the auld wans on winning streak!

Regards...still jmcc's friend

jmcc

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

So you are suddenly implying that the RIC caused the famine come off it man that is stretch even for a 'well read' history buff like yourself

No. I said that the RIC guarded food being exported from Ireland during the Famine.

Solohedbeg ambush was also strongly condemned by Nationalists as the two RIC were well respected in the area. One of the RIC men was widower and left five orphans.

There were even killings before Soloheadbeg, if I recall correctly. Didn't the RIC men make a move for their weapons after being surrounded and told to put them down?

You on the other hand are trying to paint them all as mindless stormtroopers.

So having displayed your lack of knowledge of Star Trek you are on to Star Wars?

Regards...jmcc

jmcc

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

The opposition to this goes a bit deeper than the chance to give FG a bit of a kicking.

Even FG councillors, FG TDs and prospective FG candidates were upset about it.

Regards...jmcc

James Brown

fundi wrote: »

So you want to go all the way back to the famine? OK.....

If FG existed during the famine.

'Hungry? Sure they are only pretending to try get a foreva hovel and free soup'.

'The party for people who like to have their indentured servants get up early of a morning'.

pjohnson

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

The opposition to this goes a bit deeper than the chance to give FG a bit of a kicking.

True but you need to try to spin this into something to mitigate damage to FG. So now its conspiracy time.

Regards for gormdubhgorm.

McMurphy

jmcc wrote: »

The FG Bluebots do seem to have made a complete mess of things. They have a history of screwing up. A few years ago, the HTML code for the FG website was nicked from the BBC's website for FG's brand new website. The website was hacked because of some stupid mistakes. Their former social media guru ended up in federal prison in the US. And now the meme of FG being the Black and Tans party has taken hold along with "Come out, ye Black and Tans" getting to the tops of the music charts.

And there are still some FG Bluebots (I wonder who came up with that word?) trying to defend the actions of FG, the RIC, the Auxillaries and the Black and Tans.

Regards...jmcc

Dunno, but another that made me chortle wholeheartedly recently was someone on twitter calling the justice minister "Charlie Tan-again"

fundi

jmcc wrote: »

No. I said that the RIC guarded food being exported from Ireland during the Famine.

They also guarded and helped in the distribution of food imported in to Ireland during the famine. In 1847, at the height of the Famine, Ireland exported 39,000 tonnes of wheat, and 98,000 tonnes of oats , and imported 199,000 tonnes of wheat, 12,000 tonnes of oats and 682,000 tonnes of maize. Net imports of 756,000 tonnes.
They also had other duties, for example a little known yet vital function of the constabulary was the burial of Famine victims carried out at various locations throughout the country often to the detriment of the constables.

Again I ask...about 513 RIC people were murdered in those years before independence....how many did the RIC kill in retaliation?

The Rape of Lucretia

jmcc wrote: »

Let's put it in simpler terms: The Black and Tans were terrorists. They were sent to Ireland to terrorise, torture and murder Irish people.

GoneHome wrote: »

This is exactly what it boils down to

This is not what it boils down to at all. Or maybe it does in an overly simplistic reading, or one from a prejudged bias rather than a open mind.

Violence begets violence.

All violence meted out is seen as justified by those doing so, while simultaneously, unjust by those upon whom it is inflicted. Even if both are inflicting violence on each other. The mistake is for either to think that they are in the right, and the other the wrong.

jmcc

fundi wrote: »

So you want to go all the way back to the famine? OK.

Ireland was supposed to be part of the United Kingdom but the failure of the potato crop was used as a means of genocide to kill off as many Irish people as possible so that land could be converted to more profitable use. The food that was exported could have been used to keep Irish people alive. But that doesn't matter to people like you.

I also wonder what you would be saying now if the British had only supplied the starving Irish people with food which, in that period, was “usually given to horses”.

There would be many more of us Irish still alive and the War of Independence would have taken place earlier.

Both before and during the Famine, Ireland was exporting and importing significant quantities of wheat.

Simply concentrating on wheat is misleading. Other foodstuffs were being exported.

Given the exceptional circumstances, that the response was inadequate cannot be denied. But how much more could have been processed is open to question.

The RIC guarded food being exported from Ireland while the Irish people starved and died.

Again I ask...about 513 RIC people were murdered in those years before independence....how many did the RIC kill in retaliation?

To you and Gormdubhgorm, probably not enough.

Regards...jmcc

Sober Crappy Chemis

Sing to the tune of Black and Tans ....

Cancelled out that silly plan, gone out of sight like my nan,
Show the folk how you were such silly planners,
Tell them how old uncle Gay made you run like hell away,
From the grey and speckled beard of Gerry Adams

gormdubhgorm

jmcc wrote: »

Sounds like a regular Marty Whelan show but without the elevator music.

Let's put it in simpler terms: The Black and Tans were terrorists. They were sent to Ireland to terrorise, torture and murder Irish people. Varadkar, Flanagan and Bruton want to commemorate these terrorists and their murderous activities against the Irish people.

Regards...jmcc

Were the ordinary rank in file of the RIC all terrorists?
The Irish volunteers all angels who never were ruthless who never killed innocents. Ignoring the sectarian murders of protestants by the IRA especially in Cork - Dunmanway etc

In the civil war
So were the anti treaty people terrorists?

During the free state -
Were the provos terrorists like Brendan Behan?

During the republic was Gerry and Martin Ferris et all terrorists?
They did not recognise the Dail till they did a u turn.

jmcc

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Violence begets violence.

Every time I hear Marty Whelan muttering about some pseudo-Classical music piece on LyricFM I want to smash the radio. Unfortunately it might result in me getting an electric shock and a broken radio. Terrible isn't it?

Regards...jmcc

buried

fundi wrote: »

They also guarded and helped in the distribution of food imported in to Ireland during the famine. In 1847, at the height of the Famine, Ireland exported 39,000 tonnes of wheat, and 98,000 tonnes of oats , and imported 199,000 tonnes of wheat, 12,000 tonnes of oats and 682,000 tonnes of maize. Net imports of 756,000 tonnes.

Where were these foodstuffs processed? Breweries like St.James Gate?

They also had other duties, for example a little known yet vital function of the constabulary was the burial of Famine victims carried out at various locations throughout the country often to the detriment of the constables.

God love them, "to their detriment" maybe they should have just let the victims rot on the side of the road instead? Maybe if they weren't so busy turfing people out of their homes for the crime of starvation they wouldn't have been so put out having to bury victims of their regimes mass murderous genocidal crimes.

gormdubhgorm

fundi wrote: »

So you want to go all the way back to the famine? OK.

As said before and elsewhere, the “food” which Ireland exported both before and during the Famine was mainly oats. Oats, as Dr Johnson famously stated in his dictionary, are “usually given to horses”. In the contemporary period the preparation of oats for human consumption took four to five hours. Oats were used in some of the workhouses, and the flax growing area in the North, but It is doubtful whether the average Irish farmer would have had either the knowledge, or the means, of rendering them palatable.

I also wonder what you would be saying now if the British had only supplied the starving Irish people with food which, in that period, was “usually given to horses”.

Both before and during the Famine, Ireland was exporting and importing significant quantities of wheat. The reason for this is that there are two types. The bulk of the wheat grown in Ireland then, as now, would have been winter wheat. This requires a mild damp climate. It is sown in the autumn, and is only suitable for feeding cattle. The wheat used for bread-making is known as spring or hard wheat, and requires harsh winters and hot dry summers. The presumption, therefore, is that Ireland was exporting the winter wheat which it grew best, and was importing the additional amount of spring wheat it needed for bread-making, as it does today.

In 1844, the year before the Famine, Ireland exported 94,000 tonnes of wheat and 314,000 tonnes of oats, and imported 23,000 tons of wheat. Net exports: 385,000 tonnes.

In 1847, at the height of the Famine, Ireland exported 39,000 tonnes of wheat, and 98,000 tonnes of oats , and imported 199,000 tonnes of wheat, 12,000 tonnes of oats and 682,000 tonnes of maize. Net imports of 756,000 tonnes, a change of 1,140,000 tonnes. The country lacked the milling, the baking, and the transport infrastructure needed cope with the change in the diet of almost half the population. The maize had to be milled twice.

Given the exceptional circumstances, that the response was inadequate cannot be denied. But how much more could have been processed is open to question.

The suggestion, often made elsewhere, that the problem could have been easily solved by ceasing all “food” exports lacks credibility, and your implication that Ireland was actually a net exporter of food is directly contradicted by the facts.

Again I ask...about 513 RIC people were murdered in those years before independence....how many did the RIC kill in retaliation?

You see jmcc is so busy sending out regards he ignores all this stuff.

Plus he brushed off your cogent facts with flippancy - implying that we wished the RIC killed more IRA men as he has nowhere else to go.

I think those history books he reads must be a very narrow selection and viewpoint.

James Brown

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Were the ordinary rank in file of the RIC all terrorists?
The Irish volunteers all angels who never were ruthless who never killed innocents. Ignoring the sectarian murders of protestants by the IRA especially in Cork - Dunmanway etc

In the civil war
So were the anti treaty people terrorists?

During the free state -
Were the provos terrorists like Brendan Behan?

During the republic was Gerry and Martin Ferris et all terrorists?
They did not recognise the Dail till they did a u turn.

You've an awful lot of hang ups for a lad citing 'reconciliation'

The Rape of Lucretia

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

During the republic was Gerry and Martin Ferris et all terrorists?

Certainly not Gerry. He was a British agent who played an absolutely masterful hand to dismantle the armed struggle from within, and bring about the political solution, albeit with enourmous support from the security forces. History will be very kind indeed to him.

jmcc

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Were the ordinary rank in file of the RIC all terrorists?

So now you are calling the RIC terrorists as well? That's a bit of a change though we should have seen it coming when you failed to condemn the commemoration of the Nazi concentration camp guards in honour of Flanagan senior. You are the one who, like John "Unionist" Bruton wants to commemorate the Black and Tans, are you not?

Regards...jmcc

James Brown

McMurphy wrote: »

Dunno, but another that made me chortle wholeheartedly recently was someone on twitter calling the justice minister "Charlie Tan-again"

I literally LOL'd at that one. Well done

Kermit.de.frog

Number one in the UK & Ire on iTunes...

https://twitter.com/andrewmanganVO/status/1107929672866848771

Plumbthedepths

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Number one in the UK & Ire on iTunes...

https://twitter.com/andrewmanganVO/status/1107929672866848771

The theme tune for FG'S election campaign.

jmcc

Matt Barrett wrote: »

You've an awful lot of hang ups for a lad citing 'reconciliation'

I think that the clue was when Gormdubgorm referred to the Irish people as "they". Perhaps the only reconcilliation that Gdg wants is Ireland to be part of the crumbling United Kingdom again.

Regards...jmcc

pjohnson

jmcc wrote: »

I think that the clue was when Gormdubgorm referred to the Irish people as "they". Perhaps the only reconcilliation that Gdg wants is Ireland to be part of the crumbling United Kingdom again.

Regards...jmcc

Dunno what the UK will do for Dublin GAA.

buried

Wolfe Tones to donate the royalties of the two current number 1's to the Peter McVerry Housing Trust.

Well done Charlie TanAgain. You've managed to make more houses for Irish people in a few days than Eoghan Murphy has done in years.

Billcarson

[quote="The Rape of Lucretia;112210116"

Violence begets violence.

All violence meted out is seen as justified by those doing so, while simultaneously, unjust by those upon whom it is inflicted. Even if both are inflicting violence on each other. The mistake is for either to think that they are in the right, and the other the wrong.[/quote]

So the allies during ww2 were in the wrong to take on the nazi's by that logic . Wars are generally wrong of course but on occasion are sadly necessary . Taking on tyranny and oppression is necessary.