RIC and DMP to be commemorated this month

gormdubhgorm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

We are not looking to reconcile with the british I believe that has been done for many years.
FG are talking about commemorating a specific group from a period in history.
The tan arent the unionists ir even the british. They are a historic entity that nobody will claim to honour except Flanagan and Varadkar of course.

You are missing the point is is not just 'the tan' it is the RIC/DMP I think the problem is that people do not understand the distinction.

Also doing so will definitely be a symbolic gesture towards the Unionists and relatives of those from the South of Ireland who fought with the RIC/DMP.

If they are going to do it - it should be done right or not all. All this half assed talk of academics instead - it is measly mouthed. Flanagan is 100% spot on.

corks finest

whisky_galore wrote: »

Surprisingly enough it isn't.

Not yet give FG time though

marieholmfan

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

You are missing the point is is not just 'the tan' it is the RIC/DMP I think the problem is that people do not understand the distinction.

Also doing so will definitely be a symbolic gesture towards the Unionists and relatives of those from the South of Ireland who fought with the RIC/DMP.

If they are going to do it - it should be done right or not all. All this half assed talk of academics instead - it is measly mouthed. Flanagan is 100% spot on.

Your great grandfathers were scum and you should be ashamed of them. That's the message for the tanspawn.

gormdubhgorm

weldoninhio wrote: »

Even the Brits turned down the chance to commemorate the RIC and the Tans. Did no one tell them they were pushing a UI further away??

You know well the reasons for that -

1) they did not view it as an official war

2) it would look like they are taking the p out of the Irish and stoke tensions up in NI

3) Ask an Englishman what a Tan is would he know what it was?

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Flanagan is 100% spot on.

Flanagan is too arrogant to admit he got it wrong...his fellow party members are doing for him.

weldoninhio

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

You know well the reasons for that -

1) they did not view it as an official war

2) it would look like they are taking the p out of the Irish and stoke tensions up in NI

3) Ask an Englishman what a Tan is would he know what it was?

Official war or not, they were employees/guardians of the British state. The British state have declined to commemorate (not celebrate etc as you have said earlier in the thread) them, yet you want the Irish to. You need to up your WUM game, you’re getting boring now.

gormdubhgorm

marieholmfan wrote: »

Your great grandfathers were scum and you should be ashamed of them. That's the message for the tanspawn.

That is the same reaction the Catholics used to have towards the RIC. Name change and re-branding PSNI - Sinn Fein says yep you can join them not bother.

Why are they scum? They were ordinary Irish lads trying to earn a living.
Who knows how many of the RIC Irishmen were home rulers and voted for the National Party. But there are bound to have been some at least. I suppose they were tanspawn as well?

Billcarson

'Historian David Leeson has suggested that Irish-born policemen were just as likely as their British counterparts to become involved in the sort of violence associated with the Black and Tans: "when British police and Auxiliaries took reprisals, they were following the bad example set by their Irish comrades." These were isolated, angry, frustrated men responding, if often unjustifiably or counterproductively, to the kind of guerrilla war with which they were faced'.

Plumbthedepths

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

You are missing the point is is not just 'the tan' it is the RIC/DMP I think the problem is that people do not understand the distinction.

Also doing so will definitely be a symbolic gesture towards the Unionists and relatives of those from the South of Ireland who fought with the RIC/DMP.

If they are going to do it - it should be done right or not all. All this half assed talk of academics instead - it is measly mouthed. Flanagan is 100% spot on.

Still claiming the RIC and the Black& Tans were separate entities. Historians far more knowledgeable than you disagree.

corner of hells

marieholmfan wrote: »

Your great grandfathers were scum and you should be ashamed of them. That's the message for the tanspawn.

My relatives were not scum.
I've traced my family history back hundreds of years , I've both Catholic and protestant heritage, I've Scottish and even some English gypsy heritage.
I've family members who've fought in the war of independence and civil war and IRA family members in the 50s and early 70s along with relatives who were RIC,Gardai some still serving and soldiers in both the Irish and British army.I'm proud of every single one of them.

Likewise I wouldn't call you or your family scum .

jmcc

Seems that FG is getting savaged on the Tonight with the Two and a Half Dinnies on VMT.

Regards...jmcc

gormdubhgorm

weldoninhio wrote: »

Official war or not, they were employees/guardians of the British state. The British state have declined to commemorate (not celebrate etc as you have said earlier in the thread) them, yet you want the Irish to. You need to up your WUM game, you’re getting boring now.

I am not on a WU I am just being honest. I can see beyond the narrow confines from which the Republican agenda is though in history.
If I did use celebrate that was the wrong word to use.

The truth is Ireland is an afterthought for Britain as a whole when the DUP propped up the conservatives - the British papers had to explain who the hell the DUP were.
Many of the English etc were clueless as to who they were, and here you are going on about Tans and RIC.

The Rape of Lucretia

jmcc wrote: »

Seems that FG is getting savaged on the Tonight with the Two and a Half Dinnies on VMT.

Regards...jmcc

Are they really though? Or are are you just seeing what you want to see whether its there or not ?

jmcc

So a motion of no confidence from a TD named Michael Collins brings down the Black and Tans party?

This is getting stranger and stranger.

Regards...jmcc

jmcc

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Are they really though? Or are are you just seeing what you want to see whether its there or not ?

Even had a journo from the ex-Dindo (Now the Indo) explaining how FG got things very badly wrong.

Regards...jmcc

gormdubhgorm

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Still claiming the RIC and the Black& Tans were separate entities. Historians far more knowledgeable than you disagree.

Yes they were separate entities otherwise why were they created separately and recruited from different areas England etc

How many southern Irish were in the black and tans?

marieholmfan

The RIC men were.

Remember them how you like. Tell yourself any lie you like. It's not my problem.

And there were members of my family whom I would describe as scum, not on a par with being in the RIC but such nonetheless.

corner of hells wrote: »

My relatives were not scum.
I've traced my family history back hundreds of years , I've both Catholic and protestant heritage, I've Scottish and even some English gypsy heritage.
I've family members who've fought in the war of independence and civil war and IRA family members in the 50s and early 70s along with relatives who were RIC,Gardai some still serving and soldiers in both the Irish and British army.I'm proud of every single one of them.

Likewise I wouldn't call you or your family scum .

FrancieBrady

corner of hells wrote: »

My relatives were not scum.
I've traced my family history back hundreds of years , I've both Catholic and protestant heritage, I've Scottish and even some English gypsy heritage.
I've family members who've fought in the war of independence and civil war and IRA family members in the 50s and early 70s along with relatives who were RIC,Gardai some still serving and soldiers in both the Irish and British army.I'm proud of every single one of them.

Likewise I wouldn't call you or your family scum .

I disassociate myself from Maireholmfan's remarks.

No organisation's members should be called that. I understand completely that not all members were bad, but the truth is that the organisation impact on our people was a negative and brutal one and it did function to attempt to violently prevent our independence.
That is why commemoration should be locally and individually based. The organisation itself should never be given a formal state commemoration. The queen can shake McGuinness's hand but she could never (rightly imo) formally commemorate the IRA.

Akabusi

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Nope when I first heard about this issue - I was finishing that book about bloody sunday 1920 - by Michael Foley. It was brilliant. Nuanced and well researched very open. I came away with a new found respect for those in the RIC at the top who tried to do the right thing. They tried to control the rabble but the British politicians stood in thier way. One former commander of the RIC Crozier became a pacifist after the WOI as it disgusted him so much. He hated the black and tans carry on.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Percy_Crozier

The the British administration tried to discredit him when he was critical of them in books he wrote in later years

Then there was the response to the dmp/ric commemoration now and the antics on this thread.
It has convinced me what a small minded paddywackery nation we still are when it comes to discussing our history with the British.
My first thought was our nation has the same closed mindset as the likes of Arelene Foster et al

It disgusted me and it still does. As does the inference that any Irish people who wore RIC or DMP uniform during the WOI makes them somehow less Irish.
It is incompletely wrong the mindset is wrong and our whole nation needs to grow up fast - and remember all those in history not just those that have rewritten it since independence.

So it has made me think FG are on the right track it is the Irish people who are not ready.

I accept that they were good people in the RIC but there is no way to commemorate only them without also commemorating the bad people in the RIC and then by association the Tans and Auxiliaries. I don't think there is any country in the World that could swallow that hence it was a terrible idea and FG deserve serious flak for it. Yes a lot of people have gone over the top on this and showed a lack of class but Its not a question of maturity. Would the Polish be mature enough to commemorate some good Nazis if they existed? Would the Chinese be mature enough to commemorate the good Japanese that may have been around despite the atrocities?

AS others have said an commemoration for all involved from both sides would have avoided this.

marieholmfan

Yes because my objection to the RIC has much more to do with evictions than with revolution.

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

That is the same reaction the Catholics used to have towards the RIC. Name change and re-branding PSNI - Sinn Fein says yep you can join them not bother.

Why are they scum? They were ordinary Irish lads trying to earn a living.
Who knows how many of the RIC Irishmen were home rulers and voted for the National Party. But there are bound to have been some at least. I suppose they were tanspawn as well?

gormdubhgorm

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Still claiming the RIC and the Black& Tans were separate entities. Historians far more knowledgeable than you disagree.

marieholmfan

So you approve of mass evictions?

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I disassociate myself from Maireholmfan's remarks.

No organisation's members should be called that. I understand completely that not all members were bad, but the truth is that the organisation impact on our people was a negative and brutal one and it did function to attempt to violently prevent our independence.
That is why commemoration should be locally and individually based. The organisation itself should never be given a formal state commemoration. The queen can shake McGuinness's hand but she could never (rightly imo) formally commemorate the IRA.

Plumbthedepths

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Yes they were separate entities otherwise why were they created separately and recruited from different areas England etc

How many southern Irish were in the black and tans?

I posted a link to an article from a historian that will enlighten your ignorance as to why the authorities had to recruit for the RIC outside of Ireland. Would you like me to post it again?

jmcc

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

How many southern Irish were in the black and tans?

There was no "Northern" and "Southern" Ireland then. Perhaps you didn't get to that chapter in your Charlie Tan'agan's Big Colouring Book of History (with free red, white and blue edible crayons). Seeing you criticising others for having a poor knowledge of history is rather ironic.

Regards...jmcc

weldoninhio

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I am not on a WU I am just being honest. I can see beyond the narrow confines from which the Republican agenda is though in history.
If I did use celebrate that was the wrong word to use.

The truth is Ireland is an afterthought for Britain as a whole when the DUP propped up the conservatives - the British papers had to explain who the hell the DUP were.
Many of the English etc were clueless as to who they were, and here you are going on about Tans and RIC.

Employees of the British state and the Tans mostly veterans of WW1, yet the British state refuses to acknowledge them. Why’s that?

gormdubhgorm

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

I posted a link to an article from a historian that will enlighten your ignorance as to why the authorities had to recruit for the RIC outside of Ireland. Would you like me to post it again?

Go on so but that only proves the tans, were another entity to the RIC proper by necessity.

marieholmfan

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Go on so but that only proves the tans, were another entity to the RIC proper by necessity.

RIC Special Reserve

gormdubhgorm

weldoninhio wrote: »

Employees of the British state, yet the British state refuses to acknowledge them. Why’s that?

Because they want to just forget about it and pretend it did not happen.
If they could get rid of NI they would but can't do that either.

English people are not thought Irish history at school they do not have a bulls notion about it.

It is the same selective memory in which people from the ROI like to pretend that whole of Ireland was one shade of Green - Republican and real Irish people were not members of the RIC/DMP.

The Rape of Lucretia

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

How do the numbers stack up :
- people killed by the terrorist rebels
vs.
- people killed by the B&Ts

?

Any of the history experts now that they are here able to answer this one for me ?

gormdubhgorm

marieholmfan wrote: »

RIC Special Reserve

So you are admitting it is a separate entity?
Otherwise the recruitment policy would not have been different, and it would not have been given a different name.