RIC and DMP to be commemorated this month

Plumbthedepths

As requested.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/views/analysis/padraig-og-o-ruairc/padraig-og-o-ruairc-ric-legacy-burns-a-century-on-974105.html

Plumbthedepths

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Any of the history experts now that they are here able to answer this one for me ?

Why? do you hope to occupy some moral high ground as the side you agree with may have killed less?

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

1 min 7 seconds...'In 1917, the British GOvernment advertised in English newspapers....'

Here is the advertisement:
]

You are a beaten docket on this...stop digging.

gormdubhgorm

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Any of the history experts now that they are here able to answer this one for me ?

I was reading a bit about it but it is a cloudy one. Simply because many refereed to the Tans colloquially at the time meaning the auxies, RIC proper, and RIC reserve. All different entities.

Tans were like using the name hoover to refer to all vacum cleaners.

Here is a list of the British side -

https://www.cairogang.com/soldiers-killed/list-1921.html

FrancieBrady

marieholmfan wrote: »

So you approve of mass evictions?

No I don't.

And I don't approve of calling individuals whose service record or character you don't know - 'scum'.

mattser

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I disassociate myself from Maireholmfan's remarks.

No organisation's members should be called that. I understand completely that not all members were bad, but the truth is that the organisation impact on our people was a negative and brutal one and it did function to attempt to violently prevent our independence.
That is why commemoration should be locally and individually based. The organisation itself should never be given a formal state commemoration. The queen can shake McGuinness's hand but she could never (rightly imo) formally commemorate the IRA.

Well done Francie. That needed to be said. While I would disagree with some of your comments, I will give you great credit for this.

FrancieBrady

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Any of the history experts now that they are here able to answer this one for me ?

Like the most recent conflict, it wasn't a killing competition. Another stupid input.

marieholmfan

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No I don't.

And I don't approve of calling individuals whose service record or character you don't know - 'scum'.

But you believe that the men who carried out the Derryveagh evictions were all good people?

No wonder you vote FG.

jmcc

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

How do the numbers stack up :
- people killed by the terrorist rebels
vs.
- people killed by the B&Ts

?

The terrorist rebels and the Black and Tans were on the same side. The Irish people voted for the first Dail and independence. Those who opposed the democratically express will of the Irish people were the rebels. Your Black and Tans were terrorists and the enemies of the Irish people. The RIC, in opposing the democratically expressed will of the Irish people were the rebels. Some members of the RIC murdered Irish politicians and civilians. They were the terrorist rebels that you and Gdg support.

Regards...jmcc

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

1 min 7 seconds...'In 1917, the British GOvernment advertised in English newspapers....'

Here is the advertisement:
]

You are a beaten docket on this...stop digging.

It just proves desperation on the British part.
What I would like to see is how many born and bred Irish remain the RIC.

Also if they were not separate entities why keep the different names and commanders etc

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

It just proves desperation on the British part.
What I would like to see is how many born and bred Irish remain the RIC.

Also if they were not separate entities why keep the different names and commanders etc

Should you not have that research done already before waxing 'knowledgeably' on the subject?

Plumbthedepths

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

It just proves desperation on the British part.
What I would like to see is how many born and bred Irish remain the RIC.

Also if they were not separate entities why keep the different names and commanders etc

Goalposts on wheels.

FrancieBrady

marieholmfan wrote: »

But you believe that the men who carried out the Derryveagh evictions were all good people?

No wonder you vote FG.

Where did I say that? Are you mixing me up with someone else?

I said, if you don't know a person's service record or character you cannot call them 'scum'.
I accept there were some good men in the RIC/DMP.

gormdubhgorm

Akabusi wrote: »

I accept that they were good people in the RIC but there is no way to commemorate only them without also commemorating the bad people in the RIC and then by association the Tans and Auxiliaries. I don't think there is any country in the World that could swallow that hence it was a terrible idea and FG deserve serious flak for it. Yes a lot of people have gone over the top on this and showed a lack of class but Its not a question of maturity. Would the Polish be mature enough to commemorate some good Nazis if they existed? Would the Chinese be mature enough to commemorate the good Japanese that may have been around despite the atrocities?

AS others have said an commemoration for all involved from both sides would have avoided this.

Well Oskar Schnidler is well remembered by Israel they are even making his former factory into a memorial.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/schindlers-factory-holocaust-memorial-180961059/

corner of hells

Both my RIC relatives were long dead even before 1916, I know where and when they served in Ireland too.One served through the famine in rural Ireland. I can only imagine what he saw and experienced.

From History Ireland.

The Famine’s impact

Policing famine Ireland involved extended hours of duty, the threat of violence and enforcing the law in the face of human suffering. The police were constantly in the presence of the poor and destitute, presiding at relief programs or evictions and escorting provisions and rate collectors. There were severe emotional, morale and physical costs to such prolonged stress of duty and exposure to epidemic disease: the three years 1847, 1848 and 1849 accounted for the highest-ever active-duty death rates, about twice as high as the average for the entire period 1841-1914. The incidence of gratuities to policemen who left the force prior to being pensionable also rose to their highest level in 1847.
The rate of resignation also began to accelerate during the famine. Inspector General McGregor worried in 1848 that ‘many of our respectable men have sought refuge from such excessive work by withdrawing altogether from the force…young men of character having begun within the last twelve or eighteen months to refuse entering Constabulary service notwithstanding the general want of employment’.
The intense activity during the famine accelerated the consolidation of Constabulary roles and duties that continued until disbandment in 1922 and the police were established as a permanent local presence. But Irish policemen did not escape the toll exacted by the famine.

Theres also documented evidence that during the famine the
RIC buried victims of starvation.

Akabusi

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Well Oskar Schnidler is well remembered by Israel they are even making his former factory into a memorial.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/schindlers-factory-holocaust-memorial-180961059/

Not a valid example as that is for one person - not the blanket RIC commemoration that Flanagan was planning

Sir Oxman

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Look lad even TD's and ministers of the party you are going to vote for didn't buy the bs spin put forward by Leo and Charlie yet you expect people here to suck it up. GTFO with yourself.
You seem intelligent enough yet wilfully stupid on occasions. Keep up the good ( pointless) work. I've had enough of your revisionism nonsense.

I've just anointed the third ever poster to my ignore list - and two of them over those 15 years happen to be on this thread!
I cannot stand posters twisting themselves in knots and using an inordinate amount of pixels on my screen doing so when the sage thing to do is go quietly.
Life is way too short.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

1 min 7 seconds...'In 1917, the British GOvernment advertised in English newspapers....'

Here is the advertisement:
]

You are a beaten docket on this...stop digging.

I found a website where that image was used -

https://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/who-were-the-black-and-tans/

The tans were military in all but name as Lloyd George did not want to let on it was a war. So they pretended the English recruits were the RIC. But they did not even have the same uniform as the RIC proper because they did not have the proper uniforms.


--

As the poster shows, a recruitment system was set up throughout the UK. One third (916) of all sampled recruits joined in London. Another 36 per cent (990) were recruited in Liverpool and Glasgow. Nearly fourteen per cent of recruitment transactions occurred in Ireland. Folk memory holds that the British administration was not very concerned about the backgrounds of Black-and-Tan recruits, as long as they had military experience.

"The Black-and-Tans and Auxiliaries were overwhelmingly British (78.6 per cent of the sample). Almost two thirds were English, fourteen per cent were Scottish, and fewer than five per cent came from Wales and outside the UK. An unexpected finding that is at odds with popular memory is that nearly nineteen per cent of the sampled recruits (514) were Irish-born, twenty per cent of Black-and-Tans and about ten per cent of Auxiliaries. Extrapolating from the sample, more than 2,300 of all Black-and-Tans and 225 of all Auxiliaries were Irish. Many Irishmen joined the RIC in a role assumed by folk memory to be the exclusive preserve of British mercenaries."


--

So it was in no way the same 'RIC' prior to the recruitment drive in England.

It was the 'black and tans' and the auxiliary division was a separate entity as well.

I can see why people are a bit confused. I still see no problem with it history should be remember properly

marieholmfan

Oy Gewalt!
Your relation from 175 years ago. That's how many grands before uncle?
Did he guard Trevalyen's corn while children ate grass.
Did he burn a lot of cottages?

corner of hells wrote: »

Both my RIC relatives were long dead even before 1916, I know where and when they served in Ireland too.One served through the famine in rural Ireland. I can only imagine what he saw and experienced.

From History Ireland.

The Famine’s impact

Policing famine Ireland involved extended hours of duty, the threat of violence and enforcing the law in the face of human suffering. The police were constantly in the presence of the poor and destitute, presiding at relief programs or evictions and escorting provisions and rate collectors. There were severe emotional, morale and physical costs to such prolonged stress of duty and exposure to epidemic disease: the three years 1847, 1848 and 1849 accounted for the highest-ever active-duty death rates, about twice as high as the average for the entire period 1841-1914. The incidence of gratuities to policemen who left the force prior to being pensionable also rose to their highest level in 1847.
The rate of resignation also began to accelerate during the famine. Inspector General McGregor worried in 1848 that ‘many of our respectable men have sought refuge from such excessive work by withdrawing altogether from the force…young men of character having begun within the last twelve or eighteen months to refuse entering Constabulary service notwithstanding the general want of employment’.
The intense activity during the famine accelerated the consolidation of Constabulary roles and duties that continued until disbandment in 1922 and the police were established as a permanent local presence. But Irish policemen did not escape the toll exacted by the famine.

Theres also documented evidence that during the famine the
RIC buried victims of starvation.

Plumbthedepths

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I found a website where that image was used -

https://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/who-were-the-black-and-tans/

The tans were military in all but name as Lloyd George did not want to let on it was a war. So they pretended the English recruits were the RIC. But they did not even have the same uniform as the RIC proper because they did not have the proper uniforms.


--

As the poster shows, a recruitment system was set up throughout the UK. One third (916) of all sampled recruits joined in London. Another 36 per cent (990) were recruited in Liverpool and Glasgow. Nearly fourteen per cent of recruitment transactions occurred in Ireland. Folk memory holds that the British administration was not very concerned about the backgrounds of Black-and-Tan recruits, as long as they had military experience.

"The Black-and-Tans and Auxiliaries were overwhelmingly British (78.6 per cent of the sample). Almost two thirds were English, fourteen per cent were Scottish, and fewer than five per cent came from Wales and outside the UK. An unexpected finding that is at odds with popular memory is that nearly nineteen per cent of the sampled recruits (514) were Irish-born, twenty per cent of Black-and-Tans and about ten per cent of Auxiliaries. Extrapolating from the sample, more than 2,300 of all Black-and-Tans and 225 of all Auxiliaries were Irish. Many Irishmen joined the RIC in a role assumed by folk memory to be the exclusive preserve of British mercenaries."


--

So it was in no way the same 'RIC' prior to the recruitment drive in England.

It was the 'black and tans' and the auxiliary division was a separate entity as well.

I can see why people are a bit confused. I still see no problem with it history should be remember properly

Only confusion here lad is the bs you are continuously spouting.

corner of hells

marieholmfan wrote: »

Oy Gewalt!
Your relation from 175 years ago. That's how many grands before uncle?
Did he guard Trevalyen's corn while children ate grass.
Did he burn a lot of cottages?

The threads causing you to lose your sanity , go and have a little break from it for a while.

jmcc

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I found a website where that image was used -

https://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/who-were-the-black-and-tans/

The tans were military in all but name as Lloyd George did not want to let on it was a war. So they pretended the English recruits were the RIC. But they did not even have the same uniform as the RIC proper because they did not have the proper uniforms.

So the "Join the RIC" aspect just escaped you as it is an inconvenient truth? What has Charlie Tan'agan to say about celebrating and commemorating the RIC and its Black and Tan members?

Regards...jmcc

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I found a website where that image was used -

https://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/who-were-the-black-and-tans/

The tans were military in all but name as Lloyd George did not want to let on it was a war. So they pretended the English recruits were the RIC. But they did not even have the same uniform as the RIC proper because they did not have the proper uniforms.


--

As the poster shows, a recruitment system was set up throughout the UK. One third (916) of all sampled recruits joined in London. Another 36 per cent (990) were recruited in Liverpool and Glasgow. Nearly fourteen per cent of recruitment transactions occurred in Ireland. Folk memory holds that the British administration was not very concerned about the backgrounds of Black-and-Tan recruits, as long as they had military experience.

"The Black-and-Tans and Auxiliaries were overwhelmingly British (78.6 per cent of the sample). Almost two thirds were English, fourteen per cent were Scottish, and fewer than five per cent came from Wales and outside the UK. An unexpected finding that is at odds with popular memory is that nearly nineteen per cent of the sampled recruits (514) were Irish-born, twenty per cent of Black-and-Tans and about ten per cent of Auxiliaries. Extrapolating from the sample, more than 2,300 of all Black-and-Tans and 225 of all Auxiliaries were Irish. Many Irishmen joined the RIC in a role assumed by folk memory to be the exclusive preserve of British mercenaries."


--

So it was in no way the same 'RIC' prior to the recruitment drive in England.

It was the 'black and tans' and the auxiliary division was a separate entity as well.

I can see why people are a bit confused. I still see no problem with it history should be remember properly

I give up. Believe what you want. You are in a significant minority.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I am 'over' the Battle of Boyne, I find the period fascinating actually.

Again, the problem with the Battle of the Boyne is the way in which 'some' Unionists want to celebrate it. That is inappropriate.

.

The same can be said about pretty much any event that is commemerated in Ireland.

The state commemerated the rising, without much fuss, who's first victim was an unarmed DMP officer, Limerick-born Catholic, James O’Brien shot dead in the head.

What I learned from the past few days was that many RIC offciers were shot dead out of Uniform.
Two were shot dead in their hospital beds to take one example, a war crime by any era.
A number were shot dead at church and at confession.
Many were shot dead in front of family, wives and their children.

We should have had just one commemoration for all, or if we are going to commemorate each actor/party individually then we had to accept some stuff in return. Some however, want their cake and eat it.

gormdubhgorm

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Only confusion here lad is the bs you are continuously spouting.

Why is it bs the new recruits were taken from elsewhere (England etc) so the RIC effectively ceased being the RIC in all but name, the appearance changed and the tactics as they were military.
Completely different to the RIC members who were already constables long before the recruitment drive like O'Donnell aged 50 who was killed in Solhedbeg

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/heritage/soloheadbeg-wicked-beginning-of-the-war-of-independence-1.3742421

Also a local said - eight volunteers v 2 RIC was hardly a fair fight...

--

To me I cannot fathom why it is so handy to forget those RIC lads like O'Donnell and O'Connell Irish born and bred.

markodaly

Nift wrote: »

I'm not trying to derail the thread with it, just consider why its there!! Rory Best is a uninoist from Northern Ireland. He plays rugby for Ireland which represents the whole Island. When we play abroad only one anthem is sung, Ireland's call. Tri-colors aren't flown. Its because it represents an all Ireland ideal. Its not the Republic. Hence why some people hate rugby. They think its cause its elite, but its more to do with its lack of partisan beliefs.

In any hypothetical United Ireland we need to accept shared cultures.

If you can't accept Ireland's call you have to wonder will you be able to accept a new anthem?

If you can't accept the RIC thing, you have to ask yourself can you accept this - https://www.rucgcfoundation.org/ruc-gc-memorial-garden/ and the like in a shared future.

these are questions we need to ask ourselves before we blindly go head first into a marriage with the others.

The Republic of Ireland needs a few decades of marriage counseling before saying 'I do'. Good post though.

Plumbthedepths

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Why is it bs the new recruits were taken from elsewhere (England etc) so the RIC effectively ceased being the RIC in all but name, the appearance changed and the tactics as they were military.
Completely different to the RIC members who were already constables long before the recruitment drive like O'Donnell aged 50 who was killed in Solhedbeg

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/heritage/soloheadbeg-wicked-beginning-of-the-war-of-independence-1.3742421

Also a local said - eight volunteers v 2 RIC was hardly a fair fight...

Keep fighting the 'good' fight but at this stage I'm of the opinion you are nothing but a troll. Not a terribly well informed one either.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

The same can be said about pretty much any event that is commemerated in Ireland.

The state commemerated the rising, without much fuss, who's first victim was an unarmed DMP officer, Limerick-born Catholic, James O’Brien shot dead in the head.

What I learned from the past few days was that many RIC offciers were shot dead out of Uniform.
Two were shot dead in their hospital beds to take one example, a war crime by any era.
A number were shot dead at church and at confession.
Many were shot dead in front of family, wives and their children.

We should have had just one commemoration for all, or if we are going to commemorate each actor/party individually then we had to accept some stuff in return. Some however, want their cake and eat it.

I do wonder where these nice clean conflict/wars that follow the rules happened. In your head perhaps? Pinewood or Hollywood Studios? Maybe link to one in the real world so we can compare.

Personally I think responsibility should lie with those with the 'power' to stop conflict/war happening in the first place. Like not allowing sectarian statlets to form, or not invading/colonising countries you have no business interfering in, for a start.
There is only one state involved in our centenary events still doing that.

jmcc

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Also a local said - eight volunteers v 2 RIC was hardly a fair fight...

A fair fight? The last thing that anyone in combat wants is a "fair fight". They want all the advantages because there are so many things that can go wrong. As for quoting from the "Irish" Times, that's rather apt as it tried to spin the 1916 Rising as the "Sinn Fein Rebellion". However, for its joke of a centenary edition, it had to redo the front page to remove Sinn Fein. Remember too that it was the newspaper where its owner, the traitor McDowell, offered to spy for the British and described one of the its best editors as a "white nig**r".

Regards...jmcc

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If Unionists agitate violently against the democratically expressed will of the people to unite, they won't be entitled to 'parity of esteem'.

Fianna Fail and modern SF were born out of violent agitation against the will of the people.
This is Ireland after all.